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Am I ready for players's irons?


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Originally Posted by kctay

It mostly mystifies me that a 17+ handicap would play forged irons.  Pretty clubs though.


That comment makes me want to get a set of forged titleists just to annoy people like you ...

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John

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If you are of a 'certain age' and you started playing in the early 70's- EVERYONE learned and played with blades. And I played with those for quite a long time learning how to hit various shots. When I 'updated' to an early set of cast 'cavity back' clubs, my game went south. Added yardages and inability to work the ball messed me up. I then went to a set of Hogan Edges- forged cavity backs. A great compromise as far as I'm concerned. The original Edges were stolen and I replaced them with a modestly priced set of 'game improvement' clubs. Didn't play badly, but I still felt that I didn't have the control. I acquired a newer set of Edges a few years ago and I'm back to being comfortable with my game. I probably wouldn't mind going back to blades, but my game isn't quite as consistent as it used to be so it would probably not be a great idea.
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A lot of blanket statements are made about what MOST people can do with clubs. Not everyone is most people.

The bigger the head, the longer the shaft, the worse I mishit. (SGI bananas on a stick, and modern woods.)

The smaller the head, the more likely I am to nail the sweet spot. (So called expert only Blades.)

I'm not alone in this and it has nothing to do with Handicap.

http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/golf+equipment/5-2032-Blades_Versus_Cavity_Backs_A_Golf_Club_Epiphany.html

"Quick Dorthy....the oil can!"

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Originally Posted by kctay

It mostly mystifies me that a 17+ handicap would play forged irons.  Pretty clubs though.


I agree with the other poster, handicap is not neccessarily (thought it might be), a good indicator of ball striking capability.  Most people that watch me swing my irons think my hcp is way lower then it actually is.  The reason is because my short game needs a lot of work.  Also my consistency is not there, mostly due to mental issues under pressure, but this mostly shows up in my short game and sometimes off the tee.  Maybe that is all justification for sticking with GI irons or maybe I need to make the leap to something on the easier end of player's irons because its time.  I'm thinking along the lines of the MP-53 which is a forged cavity back and considered a players iron.  When I get the SGI irons, I don't like the feel of them at all.

Probably I will have some bad days and blame it all on the player's iron, but I have the bad days with my RAC's just the same, they aren't exactly saving me from my bad days.

There have been some great comments on this thread, thanks everyone for your feedback.   It seems like this issue is really filled with passionate opinions and its just going to come down to me trying out a bunch of irons and taking a chance perhaps on a players iron that is on the forgiving end of the spectrum.

Titliest AP2 712 irons 9-5, Rescue R9 (3,4, sometimes 5), R9 460 driver, R9 3W

Vokey Wedges 48,52,56,60

Scotty Cameron Fastback 1

Taylor Made Penta balls

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Originally Posted by inthehole

That comment makes me want to get a set of forged titleists just to annoy people like you ...



I never said I was annoyed, and to each his own, I said I was mystified.  Nice attack mentality btw.

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Originally Posted by inthehole

That comment makes me want to get a set of forged titleists just to annoy people like you ...



Ha ha.. Probably some 11 year old kid man. If he thinks only a low handicap player would benefit from a forged iron, that pretty much tells all. And any halfway knowledgeable person looking at the Miura 9003 can tell immediately it is a forgiving iron. My handicap will be single digits in the coming months. Largely why I wanted some new (better) irons. And man, did I get some better irons. Like trading in a bar maid for a super model. This is the first set of new irons I ever bought. Been hitting Callaway Big Berthas and X20 tours for the last decade. I was overdue some new irons, kids in Oregon opinion notwithstanding.

Been making some pretty major swing changes in recent months and blew my score cards up. Unlike many, I count all my strokes. The hcp is lower than 17 anyway as I didn't factor in the ESC when I added my recent score cards. But I didn't bother recalculating it as it won't matter for long anyway. Not that any of this should matter. Does one have to drive well to buy a nice car? The only reason I figured my handicap was to make a good before after story and measure progress. I have played golf for 20 years and never knew my handicap till the other week.

Wanted a Jenny Craig before/after kind of deal to share with folks later. Can't do that without knowing one's handicap in the first place. Played up in Pinehurst the other day and I was 2 over after the first 7 holes. Drove with my 3W and hooked all but a few, never made a putt over 3-4 feet, and it was raining like hell the whole time. Granted, I folded like a cheap lawn chair afterwards, but if I can do it for 7 holes, I can do it for 18 in time. Quick math shows the potential to shoot 77-78 on that ratio. For someone that rarely breaks 90, that is quite an improvement. These new Miura irons are going to cut ten strokes of my game. Well, maybe that is a stretch, but the new golf swing will. ha ha...

-Dan

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I suggest trying irons on the unforgiving end of the spectrum and work towards forgiveness. (Salesmen work the opposite way for a faster sale.)

I play AP1's better the AP2"s and most would agree this makes sense. I play old Hogans and Wilson's as well as the AP1's ????

PS: I'm intrigued by the"baby" Miuras - but my dentist needs the money so I think I'll get a root canal instead.

"Quick Dorthy....the oil can!"

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When someone has to ask strangers if they're ready for a "players iron", my answer will alway be "no, you're not ready". Pick up a set of vintage irons (i.e. very low MOI regardless of the brand so just get something that fits even remotely - note: they'll probably be too short, but that's okay because you can pretend your vintage 2-iron is a 5-iron and go from there - seriously it works) and hit a bucket or two. Get it out of your system or have a light go on and realize how far you have to go. Either way, just do it.

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Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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Originally Posted by The Tin Man

I suggest trying irons on the unforgiving end of the spectrum and work towards forgiveness. (Salesmen work the opposite way for a faster sale.)

I play AP1's better the AP2"s and most would agree this makes sense. I play old Hogans and Wilson's as well as the AP1's ????

PS: I'm intrigued by the"baby" Miuras - but my dentist needs the money so I think I'll get a root canal instead.

That is great advice.  After reading these threads, I am more convinced then ever that I need to demo a lot of irons, on more than one occasion, before I leap to any decisions, and I need to give more time to try the player's irons.  I plan on getting custom shafts regardless of which ones I get.  I have a Pro I work with on a regular basis who has state of the art measuring equipment to help me figure out which shafts to go with, but he maintains an opinion that it almost doesn't matter what iron heads I get, whatever I want and feels good.  He puts a lot more emphasis on the shafts and grips.  He is of the opinion that iron clubheads really haven't changed that much in quite a long time, but shaft technology has.  In any case, The shaft fitting process will definitely be part of it...but before I embark on that I need to kind of choose the iron heads I want to play with.  Until now I've been thinking I need something like GI, and some people seem to say get the most forgiving you can.  But after reading these threads, I think I need to try them all.

My golf experience is more like Danattherock 's, I can have streaks of absolute brilliance where everyone around me thinks I'm a single digit golfer.  Then things fall apart, mostly mentally, or I get some bad shots off the tee or some ego-crushing short game stuff around the green which brings me back to planet earth.  But my iron play is generally pretty good and my swing is starting to become quite in line with what the pro is wanting to get out of me, though the consistency is not there yet, but sometimes i'm in the zone and doing it all right:

Originally Posted by Danattherock

Ha ha.. Probably some 11 year old kid man. If he thinks only a low handicap player would benefit from a forged iron, that pretty much tells all. And any halfway knowledgeable person looking at the Miura 9003 can tell immediately it is a forgiving iron. My handicap will be single digits in the coming months. Largely why I wanted some new (better) irons. And man, did I get some better irons. Like trading in a bar maid for a super model. This is the first set of new irons I ever bought. Been hitting Callaway Big Berthas and X20 tours for the last decade. I was overdue some new irons, kids in Oregon opinion notwithstanding.

Been making some pretty major swing changes in recent months and blew my score cards up. Unlike many, I count all my strokes. The hcp is lower than 17 anyway as I didn't factor in the ESC when I added my recent score cards. But I didn't bother recalculating it as it won't matter for long anyway. Not that any of this should matter. Does one have to drive well to buy a nice car? The only reason I figured my handicap was to make a good before after story and measure progress. I have played golf for 20 years and never knew my handicap till the other week.

Wanted a Jenny Craig before/after kind of deal to share with folks later. Can't do that without knowing one's handicap in the first place. Played up in Pinehurst the other day and I was 2 over after the first 7 holes. Drove with my 3W and hooked all but a few, never made a putt over 3-4 feet, and it was raining like hell the whole time. Granted, I folded like a cheap lawn chair afterwards, but if I can do it for 7 holes, I can do it for 18 in time. Quick math shows the potential to shoot 77-78 on that ratio. For someone that rarely breaks 90, that is quite an improvement. These new Miura irons are going to cut ten strokes of my game. Well, maybe that is a stretch, but the new golf swing will. ha ha...



Tin Man....Great thread on OOBgolf, thanks for sharing that.  That makes me even more convinced that I should be open minded about all types of irons.



Originally Posted by The Tin Man

A lot of blanket statements are made about what MOST people can do with clubs. Not everyone is most people.

The bigger the head, the longer the shaft, the worse I mishit. (SGI bananas on a stick, and modern woods.)

The smaller the head, the more likely I am to nail the sweet spot. (So called expert only Blades.)

I'm not alone in this and it has nothing to do with Handicap.

http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/golf+equipment/5-2032-Blades_Versus_Cavity_Backs_A_Golf_Club_Epiphany.html



Some particularly interesting comments in there that caught my attention.  One was the idea that a mishit with a GI or SGI might put you off on the side somewhere, while a mishit with a blade would be so short that you pretty much get a do over.  Either way, you're adding a stroke.

A lot of people seem to feel that blades give them more accuracy when they hit it pure, in other words, their good swings produce better shots then they get from the GI irons.  On the other hand the bad shots are worse with the blades.  But bad shots with GI's are still bad too, maybe not as bad, but still bad.  Its possibly fair to say the GI irons don't save a stroke in many cases with the bad swings, but simply perhaps save the ego a bit since the ball seems to fly further and appear to some that at least the guy can hit the ball.  But the question I have is, if they aren't saving strokes, then is a GI really improving the game?  On the other hand, well struck shots with the players irons are said by some to produce more consistent accurate shots...so potential for hitting near the hole and getting a few more birdies, if you're like me, able to do a few of those from time to time.  I want to do them more often.

I definitely saw a lot more people on that thread endorsing the idea that their game improved when they went back to their old blades instead of the new fangled game improvement irons they tried for a long time.  Only a few endorsed the idea of GI irons for actual game improvement.

I think its clear that I need to remain open minded about trying all sorts of irons.  I haven't ever even tried a blade even once in the past 10 years.  At demo days I also go straight to the cavity backs.  But its clear to me that I need to consider trying some players irons, yet remain open minded about GI's too.

Another factor is that for the long irons I use rescues.  and I have a set of Vokey wedges up through PW.  So we're really talking about only 9-5 here.  For sure the 9 and 8 I should be able to handle just about any kind of blade I think, maybe the 7 too.  The 6 and 5 are open for debate.

Titliest AP2 712 irons 9-5, Rescue R9 (3,4, sometimes 5), R9 460 driver, R9 3W

Vokey Wedges 48,52,56,60

Scotty Cameron Fastback 1

Taylor Made Penta balls

Callaway rangefinder

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Another question, from a results perspective, what is the difference between a blade and muscle back?  Obviously the cavity back widens the sweet spot.  What does adding the mass behind the sweet spot do, compared to a simple blade?

Also, can someone describe to me what is the iron offset exactly and how does that effect performance.

thanks

Titliest AP2 712 irons 9-5, Rescue R9 (3,4, sometimes 5), R9 460 driver, R9 3W

Vokey Wedges 48,52,56,60

Scotty Cameron Fastback 1

Taylor Made Penta balls

Callaway rangefinder

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Originally Posted by kctay

It mostly mystifies me that a 17+ handicap would play forged irons.  Pretty clubs though.



so you probably have no clue that "forged" refers to how the clubs are made, and nothing to do with the shape/style?

Colin P.

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Quote:

I definitely saw a lot more people on that thread endorsing the idea that their game improved when they went back to their old blades instead of the new fangled game improvement irons they tried for a long time.  Only a few endorsed the idea of GI irons for actual game improvement.

This has me thinking. Playing GI between stints with blades may be a good thing?  There's a time when training wheels help. But, the industry instead of weening us off training wheels adds bells, whistles, and streamers.

"Quick Dorthy....the oil can!"

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Originally Posted by WUTiger

Quote:

TWI, you're right about bad swings. But, marginal swings will produce better results with GI or SGI clubs than Player's clubs. Mainly, better distance and less left or right error.

GI and SGI clubs have a larger sweet zone than a Player's club. Sweet zone is the area on a club face which will produce an OK shot. The sweet zones are biggest on SGI clubs, smallest on Player's clubs. (The traditional sweet spot actually is the tiny, pea-sized ideal impact point for any clubface; it's the same size in any club. Sweet zones vary in size)


I personally never noticed much difference in ballflight or distance from players' irons to GI/SGI CBs, even on days when my ballstriking was a little off.

Whats in my :sunmountain: C-130 cart bag?

Woods: :mizuno: JPX 850 9.5*, :mizuno: JPX 850 15*, :mizuno: JPX-850 19*, :mizuno: JPX Fli-Hi #4, :mizuno: JPX 800 Pro 5-PW, :mizuno: MP T-4 50-06, 54-09 58-10, :cleveland: Smart Square Blade and :bridgestone: B330-S

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Originally Posted by kctay

I never said I was annoyed, and to each his own, I said I was mystified.  Nice attack mentality btw.



I think everyone's take on your comment is that it came across as condescending, myself included.

John

Fav LT Quote ... "you can talk to a fade, but a hook won't listen"

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I agree with that of course. I am excited to have my first ever set of new irons. Miura's at that. So I am pretty sensitive to the comment. But it is all good, we all have our opinions and that is the point of being on a forum like this in the first place, hearing different opinions. The thing with forged irons, they are not just for great players. Forged blades, yep, they will be desired by the better player I suspect. But my irons are very forgiving, although they do have less offset, thinner top line, slightly smaller face size, etc.. I just got back from a 2 hour lesson and hit the best iron shots of my life. Why did I not do this with the big berthas, who knows. Lots of swing changes of course, more practice, regular lessons, etc.. but these clubs are better. Period. I have never felt such a solid (yet soft) contact. At first glance, I would have thought they would be a bit harder to hit than my older irons, but the opposite is holding true. I truly feel these irons will allow me to more easily become a better ball striker. They are designed for average players that are getting away from the GI BS in an effort to improve their games, hence the name "Passing Point".

From Miura...

Passing Point philosophy

There is a passing point...when you pass from acquaintance to friend, from novice to serious student -- from casual golfer to committed competitor.

Your golf clubs can have a passing point, too -- a new level, where they become more than just 14 tools in a bag. They become friends in their own right.

“What does the term ‘friendly’ mean in a golf club?” This is the question Shinei and Yoshitaka Miura -- sons of company founder Katsuhiro Miura -- asked themselves as they designed the new forged Passing Point 9003 iron . The answer to their question is a club of surpassing utility, ease of play, and yes -- friendliness.

As they develop and mature in the game, golfers face a long list of challenges. The Miura sons maintain that a friendly club doesn’t force the player into positions and make quick corrections, but rather helps each player reach his or her potential.

In the MIURA tradition of melding functional golf design with an artistic eye, Shinei and Yoshitaka crafted a wider sole to help with effective turf interaction. Yet the sole takes an elegant shape that doesn’t look oversized. Likewise, the offset is designed to flow naturally into the club head to preserve a confident look at address, but still benefit players who need some help squaring the club face at impact.

The throughly researched and tested PP-9003 design places the center of gravity low for a high, soft-landing flight that still holds its line and never balloons.

And as with all MIURA clubs, the weight and balance are obsessively consistent throughout the set.

“The Passing Point brand pursues usability and performance as the core fundamental tools,” Shinei says. “We believe the strong usability and performance can make it easier to plan each shot and help each golfer use his skills to the fullest,” Yoshitaka adds.

Positioned as a stepping stone to the MIURA clubs intended for better players, Passing Point is MIURA’s way of reaching out to all golfers. Anyone who plays the game deserves a great forged club -- and Passing Point is the newest place to begin that eternal journey towards golf excellence."

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Originally Posted by inthehole

I think everyone's take on your comment is that it came across as condescending, myself included.


Number one, it wasn't condescending (I know what my intent was, I said it), it was a completely innocent comment based on observations made throughout my 40+ years of playing golf (no, I'm not an 11yo).  Number two it wasn't "everyone's" take either.  You started a feeding frenzy with "the new guy".  Apparently personal opinions are not encouraged here, but rather demonized, and distorted.

I still stand by what I said, furthermore, I don't think going to a forged iron will benefit the majority of high handicappers, that is my opinion based on playing with a variety of players.

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Originally Posted by Danattherock

I agree with that of course. I am excited to have my first ever set of new irons. Miura's at that. So I am pretty sensitive to the comment. But it is all good, we all have our opinions and that is the point of being on a forum like this in the first place, hearing different opinions. The thing with forged irons, they are not just for great players. Forged blades, yep, they will be desired by the better player I suspect. But my irons are very forgiving, although they do have less offset, thinner top line, slightly smaller face size, etc.. They are designed for average players that are getting away from the GI BS in an effort to improve their games, hence the name "Passing Point".


They do look very user friendly - and with the cachet of the Miura stamp on the back. Win win.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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Originally Posted by kctay

Quote:

Originally Posted by inthehole

I think everyone's take on your comment is that it came across as condescending, myself included.

Number one, it wasn't condescending (I know what my intent was, I said it), it was a completely innocent comment based on observations made throughout my 40+ years of playing golf (no, I'm not an 11yo).  Number two it wasn't "everyone's" take either.  You started a feeding frenzy with "the new guy".  Apparently personal opinions are not encouraged here, but rather demonized, and distorted.

I still stand by what I said, furthermore, I don't think going to a forged iron will benefit the majority of high handicappers, that is my opinion based on playing with a variety of players.



To be blunt, since I think we're on that path with this detour, what would benefit the majority of high handicappers is a reality check and some lessons (or perhaps a new hobby), but we know that ain't gonna happen.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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