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Are most amateur golfers being mislead on how to swing?


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Iacas, you said....."I would suggest that more often golfers have "errors" in the backswing because they lack an understanding and feeling for what they're supposed to do, not because they are trying to achieve the unattainable". I reckon that misses the point a bit. Ok I'm going to generalise a lot but anyway. If you swing the club ......solidly, and hit the ball on the down with a top wrist thats taut and flat......then you've got a golf swing. And it can be a good golf swing. The thing that I see, and I'm not in the industry at all is lots of players fascinated by all the stuff that teachers tell them. You know, posture, what do do with your chin, grips, wrists, releases, blah blah blah. My Bro's a good example here. A really good ball striker who's head is so full of jargon,do's, don'ts, what to do with this that and the other that his game suffers......his natural game suffers. Thing is there is not one way, there are thousands but as far as I can see the good players  ALL do a couple of things. They swing the club at the ball, they hit it in the middle of the club and the usually hit down on it....with a good solid top arm. 95 % of golf ...right there. But what do you get from golf teachers........posture, feet position, follow through, flat planes, take aways etc etc. I reckon most golf lessons to hackers like me should be A: hit the ball in the sweet spot on the club B: try to hit down on the ball with a braced top wrist C: hit the ball towards the pin!!  Make the swing that your body is happy with and take that swing as far as you can.

Taking the above advice may lead to destruction of your golf game. Laughing at it may reduce stress.

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Originally Posted by logman

Iacas, you said....."I would suggest that more often golfers have "errors" in the backswing because they lack an understanding and feeling for what they're supposed to do, not because they are trying to achieve the unattainable". I reckon that misses the point a bit. Ok I'm going to generalise a lot but anyway. If you swing the club ......solidly, and hit the ball on the down with a top wrist thats taut and flat......then you've got a golf swing. And it can be a good golf swing. The thing that I see, and I'm not in the industry at all is lots of players fascinated by all the stuff that teachers tell them. You know, posture, what do do with your chin, grips, wrists, releases, blah blah blah. My Bro's a good example here. A really good ball striker who's head is so full of jargon,do's, don'ts, what to do with this that and the other that his game suffers......his natural game suffers. Thing is there is not one way, there are thousands but as far as I can see the good players  ALL do a couple of things. They swing the club at the ball, they hit it in the middle of the club and the usually hit down on it....with a good solid top arm. 95 % of golf ...right there. But what do you get from golf teachers........posture, feet position, follow through, flat planes, take aways etc etc.

You don't seem to know how or what I teach...

I agree that grip, posture, "blah blah" is overstated. I think a lot of people here know that. I also agree that all good players do a few things (more than a couple - try five ).

Originally Posted by logman

I reckon most golf lessons to hackers like me should be A: hit the ball in the sweet spot on the club B: try to hit down on the ball with a braced top wrist C: hit the ball towards the pin!!  Make the swing that your body is happy with and take that swing as far as you can.


I'm not entirely sure what your post had to do with this conversation, but thanks for posting it.

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So Iacas, I take it that my other post has been removed because.....I disagreed with you?

Taking the above advice may lead to destruction of your golf game. Laughing at it may reduce stress.

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Originally Posted by logman

Iacas, you said....."I would suggest that more often golfers have "errors" in the backswing because they lack an understanding and feeling for what they're supposed to do, not because they are trying to achieve the unattainable".

I reckon that misses the point a bit.


Hi Logman,

I think your post is right on topic. However a few paragraph breaks and a knowledge of the editor functions on this forum would have made your comments easier to read.

Originally Posted by logman

Ok I'm going to generalise a lot but anyway. If you swing the club ......solidly, and hit the ball on the down with a top wrist that's taut and flat......then you've got a golf swing. And it can be a good golf swing.

The thing that I see, and I'm not in the industry at all, is lots of players fascinated by all the stuff that teachers tell them. You know, posture, what do do with your chin, grips, wrists, releases, blah blah blah.

My Bro's a good example here. A really good ball striker who's head is so full of jargon,do's, don'ts, what to do with this that and the other that his game suffers......his natural game suffers.

His Bro's head is so full of ball forward, handle back, relax the armpits, don't roll the wrists, still head etc that it effects his natural tendency for good ball striking. Logman sees this and so do I everyday, day in day out.

...their natural games are suffering

Originally Posted by logman

Thing is there is not one way, there are thousands but as far as I can see the good players all do a couple of things, they swing the club at the ball, they hit it in the middle of the club and they usually hit down on it....with a good solid top arm. That's 95 % of golf ...right there.

I get it Logman, you're describing what you see and feel.

Originally Posted by logman

But what do you get from golf teachers........posture, feet position, follow through, flat planes, take aways etc etc. I reckon most golf lessons to hackers like me should be...

A: hit the ball in the sweet spot on the club

B: try to hit down on the ball with a braced top wrist

C: hit the ball towards the pin!!

Again your feel for what you enjoy to do. These are also very essential points for good results. I agree.

Originally Posted by logman

Make the swing that your body is happy with and take that swing as far as you can.

What a finishing sentence. I couldn't have summed up the theme of this thread any better.

Its your body and if you don't feel comfortable with any part of the so called 'model swing' that is mainly being taught, someone better give you something that is centred on being comfortable and effective. I don't think you, or in truth, anyone wants to play the game with an alien and uncomfortable feeling.

Give anyone a comfortable swing where they enjoy performing it and they'll definitely play a game that suits them and their performance will definitely reap the benefit.

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Originally Posted by logman

So Iacas, I take it that my other post has been removed because.....I disagreed with you?


Your post wasn't removed. I quoted it and responded to it, and it remains: http://thesandtrap.com/t/56306/are-most-amateur-golfers-being-mislead-on-how-to-swing/288#post_693956 .

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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If my natural way of swinging was as perfect as yours, I wouldn't be part of this forum.

My "natural" swing injured and caused me back stress. I came here to find out how other people are swinging the club, and find models of swings that I should emulate. For example, I wasn't using the large muscles in my body to control and support my swing, which caused me to stress my back. Using my body to swing the clubhead (how I'm swinging now), is very unnatural to me, but it becomes more and more natural as I continue to work with it.

My natural game was causing me to suffer, therefore I got rid of it for an initially unnatural swing that helped me improve my ballstriking and drop my handicap from 12 to 8 in a little over a year. Through unnatural feelings, I've found a natural swing that suits me.

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Originally Posted by Precis1on

If my natural way of swinging was as perfect as yours, I wouldn't be part of this forum.

Thank you, thank you.

Originally Posted by Precis1on

My "natural" swing injured and caused me back stress.

Simple answer. It wasn't your natural swing. When motor skills are naturally learned and  performed they do not cause ailments. Fact.

Originally Posted by Precis1on

My "natural" swing injured and caused me back stress. I came here to find out how other people are swinging the club, and find models of swings that I should emulate. For example, I wasn't using the large muscles in my body to control and support my swing, which caused me to stress my back. Using my body to swing the clubhead (how I'm swinging now), is very unnatural to me, but it becomes more and more natural as I continue to work with it.

You're digging a bigger hole. You never had a natural swing and someone led you to a better path. Using big muscles is natural, golfers use OTT swings because they are in their heads. No one swings an axe that way it causes back stress.

Originally Posted by Precis1on

My natural game was causing me to suffer, therefore I got rid of it for an initially unnatural swing that helped me improve my ballstriking and drop my handicap from 12 to 8 in a little over a year. Through unnatural feelings, I've found a natural swing that suits me.

Someone showed you how to swing naturally but it felt alien to you because you had adopted an unnatural OTT swing that caused back pain. Be happy that you found it. But don't tell me that a natural swing causes pain. Doesn't wash with me.

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Originally Posted by Patrick57

Its your body and if you don't feel comfortable with any part of the so called 'model swing' that is mainly being taught, someone better give you something that is centred on being comfortable and effective. I don't think you, or in truth, anyone wants to play the game with an alien and uncomfortable feeling.

Give anyone a comfortable swing where they enjoy performing it and they'll definitely play a game that suits them and their performance will definitely reap the benefit.


What about the whole "backswing restriction" thing?  Isn't that uncomfortable?

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Originally Posted by Patrick57

When motor skills are naturally learned and  performed they do not cause ailments. Fact.


P57, I'm doing my best to ignore your nonsense, but when you make up stuff like this I'm going to step in and call you on it.

The golf swing is a violent motion that involves a lot of muscles moving in ways golfers often don't use those muscles outside of golf. You can keep saying the word "natural" all you want but it's not going to change things. Players are injured regardless of their swing style.

But you have a nice thing going here, because you can simply exclaim that anyone who is ever handed an "ailment" simply wasn't using their "naturally learned" motor skills. Uh huh.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Originally Posted by bunkerputt

What about the whole "backswing restriction" thing?  Isn't that uncomfortable?

Good point.

Uncomfortable in a good way, its more a feeling of stretching. Stretching causes pain if you overdo it. I stretch to a point where I am causing no damage. I listen to my body and achieve good backswing coil/restriction.

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We've seen your swing.


Originally Posted by Patrick57

Uncomfortable in a good way, its more a feeling of stretching. Stretching causes pain if you overdo it. I stretch to a point where I am causing no damage. I listen to my body and achieve good backswing coil/restriction.



"The expert golfer has maximum time to make minimal compensations. The poorer player has minimal time to make maximum compensations." - And no, I'm not Mac. Please do not PM me about it. I just think he is a crazy MFer and we could all use a little more crazy sometimes.

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Originally Posted by iacas

P57, I'm doing my best to ignore your nonsense, but when you make up stuff like this I'm going to step in and call you on it.

The golf swing is a violent motion that involves a lot of muscles moving in ways golfers often don't use those muscles outside of golf. You can keep saying the word "natural" all you want but it's not going to change things. Players are injured regardless of their swing style.

But you have a nice thing going here, because you can simply exclaim that anyone who is ever handed an "ailment" simply wasn't using their "naturally learned" motor skills. Uh huh.


Well I'm doing something wrong. I teach a swing that doesn't cause ailments. Strike me off.

We can make almost any movement in more of a violent way but we can also adopt a fluid repeatable motion that is pleasing for our body and still attain a very good golf game. Its the golfers who are busting a gut to get it out to inhuman lengths that are experiencing ailments.

I'll go for the more enjoyable one every time. That's if you don't mind.

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Originally Posted by Patrick57

Someone showed you how to swing naturally but it felt alien to you because you had adopted an unnatural OTT swing that caused back pain. Be happy that you found it. But don't tell me that a natural swing causes pain. Doesn't wash with me.

I never said that my CORRECT swing caused me any pain. My incorrect swing, which FELT natural to me, was causing me pain. Don't put words in my mouth.

You give the word "natural" a triple meaning. For you, it's the correct golf swing, a developed fine motor skill (repetitions), as well as a feel. I think we could get a lot further in "discussion" (for myself, you and the rest), if we can just stop using the word natural.

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If a child is bought a watercolor painting set they will use their 'natural' skills to paint a picture. It will likely not be very good but it was painted with no training nonetheless.

The child will learn what worked from the last painting and what didn't so the next picture the child paints will likely be better than the first even with no training.

By the 10th, 100th or 1000th picture painted, the child will be significantly better than they were at the very beginning, even with no training. People might even start using phrases like, "she's a natural" or "he has natural ability"

The child may continue improving throughout their entire life being the best artist the world has ever seen even with no training or learning from others.

They might also reach a point where they won't ever improve because their natural ability is limited. In order to get better they have to learn, whether it's techniques, paint chemistry, how tools and brushes can be used differently etc.

As golfers we all face a similar process of learning; some people will simply "get it" and constantly improve, rarely seeking out others for training or to improve based on additional information. Others may feel that they're better off using the experiences and knowledge of others to improve their game and start taking lessons from the start.

For me I don't think either of them is right or wrong; it's just a personal decision to be made on an individual basis and no mater how many times someone shouts "natural is the only way" or "training is the only way" it's up to the individual to go with what they feel works for them.

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Why are we still entertaining this thread? It's obvious by now that the majority of the users on this site simply don't agree with Patrick based on how he is presenting his arguments. It's not a conspiracy! It's the plain simple observation that the material provided is vague and non conclusive. After 300+ posts, it's clear there will not be a consensus and the back and forth is getting tiresome. I know I don't have to read the posts, but when always on the forum summary page, it's hard not to see it.

Can we just agree to disagree and move on?

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Originally Posted by Precis1on

I never said that my CORRECT swing caused me any pain. My incorrect swing, which FELT natural to me, was causing me pain. Don't put words in my mouth.

You give the word "natural" a triple meaning. For you, it's the correct golf swing, a developed fine motor skill (repetitions), as well as a feel. I think we could get a lot further in "discussion" (for myself, you and the rest), if we can just stop using the word natural.

Natural movements - walking, standing up, sitting down, jumping, etc. Walking is a skill that requires numerous motor skills to achieve - involving balance, coordination, rythym, timing and more - that's the way we perform all natural movements. Athletes push boundaries and in effect sustain injuries. Its their choice and yours but I'll stick to natural tendencies for motor skills and perform them without sustaining injury.

You however said your natural swing caused you pain because you weren't using the big muscles properly and I said it is unnatural to swing that way - e.g. OTT - no one swings an axe outside to in, not for long anyway, its damn sore. But golfers do it for a lifetime.

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After reading Patrick's (and his alter egos) many assertions on the golf swing, learning methods, ability to discuss differing viewpoints, etc., plus seeing his swing video, I think I understand why the pro tour ranks aren't flooded with Austrian golfers.     Movin' on.......

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