Are most amateur golfers being mislead on how to swing?

[sean_miller]

I asked my instructor about getting the club parallel at the top. He said I shouldn't worry about it since I already do the important things. He mentioned a move that's wide, then narrow, then wide as being desirable. As in, wide on the way back and to the top, then arms getting closer to the body on the way down and through, then getting wider after impact. He mentioned it because he says the "natural" tendency for a lot of high handicappers is to do the opposite. They start out narrow, get wider on the way down, then narrower after impact. It's hard to hit the ball hard that way apparently. He knows more about the swing than I ever will, but he speaks to me on my level. How deep his knowledge or understanding of the swing and what new players need is not important since I'm neither a technical person nor a beginner, but it's nice to know I could get my wife or kids a lessons package and they'd likely be successful.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

Yeah, I typically do a google image search on people's usernames and then use an appropriate image.

I wish you wouldn't have posted this.  I just did that same thing and my whole life on the internet flashed before my eyes.  It was disturbing.  Taking the rest of the day off now to contemplate my existence...

[teamroper60]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Hi tristanhilton,

my daughter plays off 3 and I know most of you will think she lives on the course. From the age of 8 to 12 she played about 3 times a week and took lessons from me a couple of times a week. From the age of 13 with a handicap of 4.4 she has more or less given up taking lessons with the odd 15 minute correction before a tournament.

She now only plays a couple of weeks of the year just before the club championship and then wins the thing. Last season she won the said stroke play championship with a scratch 75 and 73.

This is only one of my low single figure students. I am of the opinion that many more golfers can get to a single figure handicap but not with a knowledge of geometry or physics but with a more natural approach to learning the game.

Sincerely yours

Patrick

I am new to golf but not new to sports..    In nearly every sport, your skill level will improve with practice.   I remember a kid on our basketball team that technically speaking had horrible shot form.   Nobody else could emulate his shot form and hit the backboard, let alone make baskets, yet this kid consistently made baskets from all over the floor.   The reason was, he practiced A LOT!   Your daughter practiced golf in one fashion or another 5 days a week for 4 years.   Thus, while I will draw no inferences into your skill as a teacher, I am saying that her success is more likely a testament to her dedication to practice than to anything you may or may not have taught her...

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I asked my instructor about getting the club parallel at the top. He said I shouldn't worry about it since I already do the important things.

Sounds like pretty sound advice to me.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by teamroper60

I am new to golf but not new to sports..    In nearly every sport, your skill level will improve with practice.   I remember a kid on our basketball team that technically speaking had horrible shot form.   Nobody else could emulate his shot form and hit the backboard, let alone make baskets, yet this kid consistently made baskets from all over the floor.   The reason was, he practiced A LOT!   Your daughter practiced golf in one fashion or another 5 days a week for 4 years.   Thus, while I will draw no inferences into your skill as a teacher, I am saying that her success is more likely a testament to her dedication to practice than to anything you may or may not have taught her...

Hey, I agree, she's the talent, I am only the coach. I think I was only mentioning her because a reply came that my coaching was only for a certain level. You're only as good as the woman you are teaching. LoL

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I asked my instructor about getting the club parallel at the top. He said I shouldn't worry about it since I already do the important things. He mentioned a move that's wide, then narrow, then wide as being desirable. As in, wide on the way back and to the top, then arms getting closer to the body on the way down and through, then getting wider after impact. He mentioned it because he says the "natural" tendency for a lot of high handicappers is to do the opposite. They start out narrow, get wider on the way down, then narrower after impact. It's hard to hit the ball hard that way apparently. He knows more about the swing than I ever will, but he speaks to me on my level. How deep his knowledge or understanding of the swing and what new players need is not important since I'm neither a technical person nor a beginner, but it's nice to know I could get my wife or kids a lessons package and they'd likely be successful.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Sounds like pretty sound advice to me.

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think the message that was meant to be conveyed pertained to what is "natural" and what isn't based on the experience of his instructor.  You advocate a "natural" swing method.  A fellow instructor found that a "natural" swing method doesn't work.  To each their own.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Tomboys

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I asked my instructor about getting the club parallel at the top. He said I shouldn't worry about it since I already do the important things. He mentioned a move that's wide, then narrow, then wide as being desirable. As in, wide on the way back and to the top, then arms getting closer to the body on the way down and through, then getting wider after impact. He mentioned it because he says the "natural" tendency for a lot of high handicappers is to do the opposite. They start out narrow, get wider on the way down, then narrower after impact. It's hard to hit the ball hard that way apparently. He knows more about the swing than I ever will, but he speaks to me on my level. How deep his knowledge or understanding of the swing and what new players need is not important since I'm neither a technical person nor a beginner, but it's nice to know I could get my wife or kids a lessons package and they'd likely be successful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Sounds like pretty sound advice to me.

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think the message that was meant to be conveyed pertained to what is "natural" and what isn't based on the experience of his instructor.  You advocate a "natural" swing method.  A fellow instructor found that a "natural" swing method doesn't work.  To each their own.

I meant both. It took a lot of hard work to get a natural swing.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Quote:

You also wrote,

Incidentally what makes your instruction/book any different to teachers like Shawn Clement and what makes you think people will pay attention to what you're saying if your demonstration is more of a "do as I say, not as I do"?

Did I offer this book to you?

Not at all; I just noticed you offered it out to a member and it intrigued me as to whether there's a big difference between what Shawn teaches and your own philosophies as they seem quite similar on paper.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Not at all; I just noticed you offered it out to a member and it intrigued me as to whether there's a big difference between what Shawn teaches and your own philosophies as they seem quite similar on paper.

As I have no idea what Shawn teaches, it is impossible for me to make comparisons. Sorry

[mdl]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Unfortunately you haven't understood my OP or you didn't even bother to read it. You're so far off the mark, I feel as if I am reading about someone else.

Wait, so your answer is taking umbrage and continuing to not actually answer anything that was raised?  At least you're consistent.  I noted in my original response that yes, feeling the restriction at the top of the backswing, in a position that lets you get to impact consistently, with reasonable power, is obviously necessary.  ALL you've offered is a drill to get students to consider the feeling of restriction, and then platitudes like "swing naturally" and how we shouldn't try to imitate or really even learn from pros' swings.

I'm a naturally good athlete who taught myself to play.  In my "natural" swing I absolutely felt the restriction at the top.  In fact, it's something I consciously thought about and learned how to feel and all that.  I "naturally" felt very loaded, and could absolutely murder the ball (especially with the driver, with the huge club face and ball up off the ground) if I really went after it and happened to hit it reasonably straight that time.  Unfortunately, my "natural" swing had a bunch of elements that made it almost impossible to learn to play consistently, and I plateaued as an 80s player who's only broken 80 twice, both times with both putting and the punch-slice recovery from a bad drive absolutely on fire, despite my (what I would consider) solidly above average natural athletic ability and very consistent practice over 4 years.

I recently took my first lesson where the instructor pointed out what was making my game inconsistent and showed me a bunch of "pro swing" positions I should aim for to let me become more consistent, one of which had to do with how to feel and in what position to achieve restriction at the top of the swing.  After two weeks of practice I've played one full and one 9 hole round.  I shot 78 and 39, by far the best 27 consecutive holes I've ever played.  It still doesn't feel "natural" yet, and the restriction doesn't feel more or less, just achieved in a different way in a different position.  So much for your magic platitudes...

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Not at all; I just noticed you offered it out to a member and it intrigued me as to whether there's a big difference between what Shawn teaches and your own philosophies as they seem quite similar on paper.

As I have no idea what Shawn teaches, it is impossible for me to make comparisons. Sorry

Here ya go:

[teamroper60]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Hey, I agree, she's the talent, I am only the coach. I think I was only mentioning her because a reply came that my coaching was only for a certain level. You're only as good as the woman you are teaching. LoL

Obviously, you missed the point......

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by mdl

So much for your magic platitudes...

I'm happy for you. I made my point but it takes time to delve into the intricasies of your story. I'm glad you agree with back swing restriction and paired with your athleticism, its sounds like a good blend. I'm not entirely sure exactly what you altered in your back swing but I'm sure you are working with something that isn't a million miles away from your self taught swing. Of course its going to feel alien but be happy that it is working. I'm sure you will go from strength to strength.

[mvmac]

Ok, I'm going to answer the OP's question, YES most golfers, amateurs and pros are mislead on how to swing.  There is no consideration for swinging on a tilted angle, how the body should work to accommodate that motion.  Heck, there isn't even any consensus on how to hit draws and fades.

Patrick, when a golfer hits a shot, what dictates it's initial start direction, the direction of the path or the face angle?

[14ledo81]

Originally Posted by jamo

So then how does one find their natural swing? Which tips are fine, and which lead you down the path of artificiality?

(Also, rather than quoting people the way you are, the best way is to hit the quote button at the bottom of each post, and then you can always cut stuff out or copy/paste if you need to make it shorter.)

I have not posted in awhile, (check in and read everyday) but I could not sit quiet about this thread anymore.  Will  the OP please answer jamo's questions?

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Ok, I'm going to answer the OP's question, YES most golfers, amateurs and pros are mislead on how to swing.  There is no consideration for swinging on a tilted angle, how the body should work to accommodate that motion.  Heck, there isn't even any consensus on how to hit draws and fades.

Patrick, when a golfer hits a shot, what dictates it's initial start direction, the direction of the path or the face angle?

This is too easy but I'll answer...The direction of the path of course.

[Mr. Desmond]

uh, oh....

[nevets88]

D@mn! I was gonna post that! I'll finish it for you.

uh, oh...

Wait for it...

Wait for it...

Here it comes...

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

uh, oh....