Should Rule 4.4 (Maximum of 14 clubs) be altered?

[zipazoid]

Somewhere (if he's still alive) Cary Middlecoff likes this - I believe he used to carry like 22 clubs before the rule was enacted.

But isn't learning to hit 14 different clubs confusing enough for beginners...let alone for established players?

No, I think 14 is a good number. Anything beyond that just nuances the game too much. Besides, I don't need to carry a driver that's "just for show".

[Patrick57]

Hi zipazoid,

Quote:

You wrote,

No, I think 14 is a good number. Anything beyond that just nuances the game too much.

I think you only read the first half of my original post. I am arguing for a smaller set being beneficial for the amateur golfer.

Sincerely yours

Patrick

[TourSpoon]

While i don't agree with everything in the first post, I do think the concept of having beginners learn how to play with less choices is a good idea as they can learn to play golf and not play clubs. Any decent pro can take a seven iron and hit several types of shots with them and vary the distance from 120-175 yards. They can flight them up, down, left, right, and any combination (Bubba's 4 iron on 18 from 200 yards is a perfect example, he could have hit 4 lesser clubs that far but he saw that shot). There are many stories of pros with great imagination that learned their creativity from lack of choices. Seve has to be the best known of this group learning how hit bunker shots with a three iron. Other stories come to mind with Hogan hitting a green with every iron in his bag (and maybe a wood or two). IMO, this concept is even more important when learning the short game. Learning to use one wedge well will allow you to eventually hit all the wedges well. Many inexperienced golfers are amazed when someone can hit a flop with a 54 degree wedge, a bunker shot with a pw, and then hit a 60 so that it has low trajectory. I tell new golfers to get a good sand wedge (@56) and learn the shots before entertaining a 60 or higher. The point is you should learn how to swing to get the ball to behave and pick the best combination using skill, imagination, and the club. This will make you a more complete golfer than just learning to use a 9 to chip, a 60 for high pitches, etc.

[AmazingWhacker]

I agree that it's easier for beginner golfers to have fewer clubs but I disagree that it should be a rule.

Also, for the people that worry about using the wrong club for the job - IMO - the clubs you should leave out are the longest ones.  ie - you carry 5w, 7i,8i,9i,pw . . it's not like you should have 4i, 8i, sw and try to get around with just those . .that wouldn't really help that much.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by vanpooten

OP brings up good points, I don't understand why everyone is jumping down your throat.

I think that because he's talking about actually changing the Rules of Golf and not just using less clubs as a training or learning tool. I think the reaction he'd have gotten would have been better if he'd left the Rules of Golf out of it.

[JonDavis]

I believe I have the last word. Everyone needs to watch "Tin Cup" -especially the scene in which Kevin Costner shot par with a seven iron. Conversation over.

[colin007]

so...are you a 12 or scratch?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by colin007

so...are you a 12 or scratch?

His profile says "0.0" here. I think that's what it said yesterday too.

I'd add him to the "Instructor/Pro" group if he asked and showed some credible proof that he is one.

[tristanhilton85]

First off, post #2 really sums up what the answer should be.

No we shouldn't change the rules... the idea is great for practice, but the 14 club rule should remain the same for all the reasons iacas listed and probably others as well.

Now that we have that out of the way, I have a couple of legitimate questions I'd like the OP to answer.

You say that you play better with 7 clubs as opposed to a full set so why do you bother to bring 14 to the course ever?  Secondly you say that when you play with your beginner students you only use a 9 iron because you want them to see how easy it is to play bogey golf, but then you say you like playing with just a 9 iron because it's a challenge to play bogey golf with it... so which is it, is it a challenge for you to accomplish it or is it easy?

Also, I can't figure out how "good" you really are, so maybe you can clarify that for me.  You say that with your 7 club bag you can shoot "around par" but are worse with more clubs.  In a later post you say that you "play scratch golf" with the 7 club set.  Yet you say that you limit yourself to 7 clubs which in your class system puts you at "Class 3" which would be 11.5 and 18.4 and you list yourself on the site as a 12.2.  So is 12.2 your actual handicap?  Or is that just rounds with a full set?  Also, if you can "play scratch golf" with your 7 club set shouldn't you be a higher class in your system and use 8 or 9 clubs?

Also I see that 4.4 and below get to use 9 clubs... how come no amateur gets to use 14... I play with many who are scratch or better (a lot of aspiring pros at the course I play) and apparently unlike you they seem to be able to make the correct choice of which of the 14 clubs they should use... Why would you limit those?

Anyways, look forward to your answers.

EDIT

Since I originally wrote this your handicap has changed in the system from 12.2 to 0.0...  I'm still not sure how "good" you are.  If you really are a 0.0 why wouldn't you use 9 clubs in your bag as your own rule would allow you to?  I suspect you really have no clue what you are doing.

[boogielicious]

I like the 14 club rule as it is.  I agree with other posters than using less clubs is a good training tool, but should not be a rule change.  Once a player establishes some consistency with distance control, course strategy then becomes more of a focus.  I found it easier to keep one swing and change clubs than trying to do partial swings for distance control.

I also don't see why you would laugh at someone carrying four wedges.  Maybe they are their best clubs or they are working on some aspect of their game.  I carry four including the PW.  They are my best clubs and I can be accurate from 120 in with them using full shots.  Maybe as I get closer to scratch, I will develop the other shots, but I like this approach at my current level.

I also think the proposed rule change by the OP would be very difficult to enforce.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

You say that you play better with 7 clubs as opposed to a full set so why do you bother to bring 14 to the course ever?  Secondly you say that when you play with your beginner students you only use a 9 iron because you want them to see how easy it is to play bogey golf, but then you say you like playing with just a 9 iron because it's a challenge to play bogey golf with it... so which is it, is it a challenge for you to accomplish it or is it easy?

I don't bring 14 clubs to the course with me.

Bogey golf with my 9 iron is a challenge. I didn't say it was easy. I play to 18 with the 9i and don't find it easy but challenging. Now handicap 27 with my 9i would be easy.

My class allows me up to 9 clubs but I choose to play with 7.

I hope this clarifies your questions.

In reply to your EDIT...

I mentioned on another post that I coach most of the day, the scratch golfers you play with probably play much more than me. I maintain a high standard of play but (un)fortunately earn my keep from coaching. As I have little time to practice, I have dropped the more difficult clubs from my bag and play with my more reliable ones. When I did practice often, there were no difficult clubs, but present circumstances rule.

Do you think it was friendly to finish with...

I suspect you really have no clue what you are doing?

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

I also think the proposed rule change by the OP would be very difficult to enforce.

Of course it would, and I am not trying to change the rule. For a start the club manufacturers would go ape shit. I have only put it in there to arouse interest. Mission accomplished, I believe.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I don't bring 14 clubs to the course with me.

Bogey golf with my 9 iron is a challenge. I didn't say it was easy. I play to 18 with the 9i and don't find it easy but challenging. Now handicap 27 with my 9i would be easy.

My class allows me up to 9 clubs but I choose to play with 7.

I hope this clarifies your questions.

In reply to your EDIT...

I mentioned on another post that I coach most of the day, the scratch golfers you play with probably play much more than me. I maintain a high standard of play but (un)fortunately earn my keep from coaching. As I have little time to practice, I have dropped the more difficult clubs from my bag and play with my more reliable ones. When I did practice often, there were no difficult clubs, but present circumstances rule.

Do you think it was friendly to finish with...

I suspect you really have no clue what you are doing?

In the first part of your original post you made it sound like it was easy for you to shoot bogey golf with the 9 iron only and then it seemed like you changed your story.

And you are right, it wasn't really friendly to finish with "I suspect you really have no clue what you are doing."  However, I wasn't trying to be friendly... just expressing my opinion.

Anyways, I'm done here... I don't want to contribute anymore to this thread getting more off topic than it already is, so I'll answer the original question one more time and hopefully everything will be good from there...

No I don't think the rule should be changed... playing with less than the allotted 14 can be a good way to practice but there is no need to officially limit a golfer to less.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

When I play with class 4 and 5, I restrict myself to one club, my 9 iron and usually play bogey golf with it (and yes I do putt out with it). It lets them see just how easy bogey golf is.

P.S. I love playing with only my 9 iron and it gives me plenty of challenge to play bogey golf. It also improves my creative skills which add a new dimension to my game.

I don't see any mention of easy in my sentence about playing with my 9i. I do however say bogey golf is easy. My P.S. a couple of sentences later backs up my argument. People read what they want to read. I didn't say bogey golf is easy with a 9i.

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

In the first part of your original post you made it sound like it was easy for you to shoot bogey golf with the 9 iron only and then it seemed like you changed your story.

Call me what you want but don't imply I was changing my story. I know my capabilities, I do believe a tour pro could play scratch with a 9i at many courses.

[zipazoid]

What would be the purpose of reducing the number? What would be accomplished by it?

And, as stated, the golf club industry would go crazy over it. Lawsuits would follow. It would be a big mess for, again...what?

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Hi johnclayton,

Too many people on the happy pills on this forum. This is my last post.

Followed by:

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Hi LuciusWooding,

the main reason, not only high handicappers but, amateur golfers in general are rarely pin high, is two reasons...

1) they rarely use the right club

2) and when they do they rarely hit it properly

I have been playing low 70's golf for many years and I only carry 7 clubs (the nine iron thing is only with beginners). When I have 14 clubs in my bag, I do play worse because I make bad club selections. With my 7 club set, I almost never make bad club selections. My students understand this logic because I advise them to try it and they do, very successfully.

Sincerely yours

Patrick

P.S.

That skill is called touch and we are all born with it. Golfers with 14 clubs don't get the chance to use it.

AND...

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I didn't realise that all the golfers on this forum were such brilliant golfers. They play the hardest golf courses in the world and never make bad club selection decisions. I play scratch golf with my bag of 7 clubs and I play worse with 14 clubs because I seem to choose the wrong club when I have more clubs in my bag.

I have been playing for over 40 years and laugh my head off when I see a 20 handicapper with 4 wedges in his bag. Does he select teh correct wedge for the correct shot - very rarely.

Can I repeat, the nine iron game is only when I play with beginners. I two putt most greens, I reach every par 3 easily with two shots, par 4's with three and par 5's with 4. I rarely hit a bad nine iron. What's the big deal?

If my course had 200 yd frontal water hazards, I would have to carry two clubs with the beginners. Calm down everyone.

Sincerely yours

Patrick

AND...

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Hi inthehole,

In my opinion you are compromising your playing ability. With my 40 years of experience, I learned to compromise correctly. I am surprised that there not at least half of the posters agreeing with my idea.

Sincerely yours

Patrick

AND...

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Hi zipazoid,

I think you only read the first half of my original post. I am arguing for a smaller set being beneficial for the amateur golfer.

Sincerely yours

Patrick

AND...

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I don't bring 14 clubs to the course with me.

Bogey golf with my 9 iron is a challenge. I didn't say it was easy. I play to 18 with the 9i and don't find it easy but challenging. Now handicap 27 with my 9i would be easy.

My class allows me up to 9 clubs but I choose to play with 7.

I hope this clarifies your questions.

In reply to your EDIT...

I mentioned on another post that I coach most of the day, the scratch golfers you play with probably play much more than me. I maintain a high standard of play but (un)fortunately earn my keep from coaching. As I have little time to practice, I have dropped the more difficult clubs from my bag and play with my more reliable ones. When I did practice often, there were no difficult clubs, but present circumstances rule.

Do you think it was friendly to finish with...

I suspect you really have no clue what you are doing?

AND...

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Of course it would, and I am not trying to change the rule. For a start the club manufacturers would go ape shit. I have only put it in there to arouse interest. Mission accomplished, I believe.

AND...

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I don't see any mention of easy in my sentence about playing with my 9i. I do however say bogey golf is easy. My P.S. a couple of sentences later backs up my argument. People read what they want to read. I didn't say bogey golf is easy with a 9i.

Call me what you want but don't imply I was changing my story. I know my capabilities, I do believe a tour pro could play scratch with a 9i at many courses.

I probably don't even have a point. I just love it when somebody post that they are never posting here again and then post a retort. I guess somebody has to have the LAST WORD. Hey, if nobody responds to this thread from here on in, maybe this will be the last word >>>>>>>>>>>> " SCRUMPTIOUS"

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

I probably don't even have a point. I just love it when somebody post that they are never posting here again and then post a retort. I guess somebody has to have the LAST WORD. Hey, if nobody responds to this thread from here on in, maybe this will be the last word >>>>>>>>>>>> "SCRUMPTIOUS"

Not thee Ernest Jones.

I fully intended to stop but the replies got so interesting, I couldn't. I also need to have the last word on this post.

"It's nice to be nice!"

[Ernest Jones]

I rest my case. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go throw out 5 of my golf clubs.

Hey maybe you'll win a kickstarter of the month award for this drivel.