Is Judgemental Feedback advantageous?

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by mchepp

Or just push whatever it is you came on here to push and get it over with.

Yes, Please!

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

What!?  A person getting a certain type of verbal feedback can feel things that others can't?  Geez, this just keeps getting beter...

As I already mentioned, the benefit is working on one thing at a time. Most golfers can't feel, for example, their left arm bending because they are so busy with about six other conditions during the swing. The coach as mirror works only on this particular condition. It makes sense!

This refraining from reacting to unnecessarily rude closing sentences isn't easy but I promised the Gaffer.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by colin007

what if the student says he doesnt feel his elbow bend at all?  i think the teacher/coach needs to be viewed at as the authority.  you can question him, and feel confident that his answer is the correct one.  at some point, the coaching needs to be definitive, and not wishy washy.

I think it was the wishy washy comment that got to me. I have been working with non-judgemental feedback for too long perhaps and don't like it being called wishy washy. I rarely come across students who can't feel their elbow bending either but again that's probably NJF. If I offended I'm sorry but I see it a little as like for like.

If my son said to me, "But Dad, I can't feel my elbow bending." I tell him not to be daft. He would probably laugh but on this site they get all upset.

Originally Posted by mdl

The problem Erik's talking about is in your response.  This is a very condescending response that is totally dismissive of the poster's point:

Erik, who's Erik. Are you all buddies? Is Erik the Gaffer?

Originally Posted by mdl

A thread on different coaching styles would be interesting, though I think that being a good coach means having command of many different styles of teaching and tailoring the exact approach in a given lesson to the particular student and the particular problems that student is having, so it's hard to encapsulate a whole theory of teaching in short posts on a forum.  But this thread won't be an interesting discussion of different approaches.  You instantly turn it into a very unhelpful pissing match.

I love these rude closing sentences. Its almost like spitting uncontrollably. You don't want to do it but due to your personality you can't help yourself. If I finished with that sentence iacas would be calling me a twit again.

[newtogolf]

I've been a member on this site for a while and I can honestly state that if you give respect you will most likely get respect back.  You have come here claiming to be an instructor with a new approach to teaching golf which I'll call the "Natural Method", suggest rule changes that limit high handicappers to only 5 clubs, referred to Homer Kelly as Homer Simpson made outrageous claims and numerous rude comments yet you seem surprised by the responses you're getting.

As an instructor you should know that most new golfers are so focused on striking the ball they are not aware of what each individual body part is doing.  I have bent my right arm (lefty golfer) and not known it, I've also confused swaying my hips with turning my hips.  If you take the time to read through older posts you'll see a common theme, "feel isn't real" and I've found it to be accurate.  What you think your body is doing isn't always the same as what it's really doing, so without video, a mirror or someone (instructor) watching your swing you wouldn't gain that insight.  I've even found that while performing drills in the mirror I will do them correctly but on the range or course while trying to hit the ball my body will not react the same way as in the drills.

Erik is the owner of the site and he interacts enough with us on the site that we sometimes refer to him by his real name.

You and your students would benefit from you keeping an open mind on this site and attempting to gain some knowledge about other teaching methods and techniques.  You don't have to buy into it all but ease up on the sarcastic and dismissive comments and either defend your position intelligently and respectfully or simply agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I think it was the wishy washy comment that got to me. I have been working with non-judgemental feedback for too long perhaps and don't like it being called wishy washy. I rarely come across students who can't feel their elbow bending either but again that's probably NJF. If I offended I'm sorry but I see it a little as like for like.

If my son said to me, "But Dad, I can't feel my elbow bending." I tell him not to be daft. He would probably laugh but on this site they get all upset.

Erik, who's Erik. Are you all buddies? Is Erik the Gaffer?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

That is also what you do with my posts.

No I don't. I respond to the points you're trying to make, and point out counter-arguments to them, or when you're quite literally factually wrong, I point that out.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

You don't like my views, that's clear. I have my opinions and you have yours. I have refrained from reacting to the unfriendly replies since you put me in the Penalty Box but you are still not happy.

You keep mentioning them. Look, you reap what you sow. If anything I think people are being nicer to you than you might deserve.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Do you really feel I am spamming or trolling?

Yes. More of the latter with just a hint of the former.

I'll also point out that you did not respond to the actual point(s) I made.

Speaking generally, we ask students all the time "what" they feel, but they first need to know "when" or "where" to feel it. We also have a wide variety of pre-built or common "feels" that get students headed in the right direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick57

This is not the case with golfers who have been introduced to non-judgemental feedback.

Don't be surprised if people don't leap to believe a guy who doesn't "believe in" facts of reality.

I don't particularly care for the way you've phrased these things, either. On one level the entire reason a student seeks a teacher is for the teacher to use their "judgment" to help them with their golf swing, help them prioritize, help them fix things.

But you seem to be using "judgmental" in the more negative connotation.

Personally, I use a blend of both. Sometimes it depends on the student, sometimes it depends on the piece they're working on, etc. You've said elsewhere that feel isn't real, and I agree wholeheartedly with that, and students - as a general rule - are lousy at feeling things. So oftentimes I'll use either the camera to show the student that their feel isn't real, or I'll position the student in the correct position and ask them what they feel, or we'll work together to exaggerate the move slightly so they can begin to change their typical motion into a better one (and so on - there are more techniques as well).

In no way are any of those "judgmental" yet in all of them I'm using my "judgment" to help the student.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Erik, who's Erik. Are you all buddies? Is Erik the Gaffer?

I love these rude closing sentences. Its almost like spitting uncontrollably. You don't want to do it but due to your personality you can't help yourself. If I finished with that sentence iacas would be calling me a twit again.

My name's right there at the bottom of each and every post I make.

I never called you a twit, and your entire last paragraph here is out of line. You're treading on thin ice again, Patrick.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

This is not the case with golfers who have been introduced to non-judgemental feedback.

Jim Furyk's backswing feels "normal" to him, he has said he doesn't feel what the video shows, the loopyness.

He would feel it if he had non-judgemental feedback?

I'm saying no.  I like everyone else has issues with my swing and I need to exaggerate the opposite to find a happy medium.  For me feeling the clubshaft across the line at the top of the backswing, gets it close to neutral because I have a tendency to lay it off.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

I think everybody wants feedback in a different manner depending on how 'delicate' they are. I tend to be a little bit too brutal with things because I see no reason to *****-foot around so when I have a lesson I'd rather hear "Try driving the hips forward more; you're not getting enough side tilt at impact" than "Yes Dave that's good. Now try to do it a little more. A little more again. That's better. Now a little more. Looking good, keep it up" etc.

For me personally 'to the point' is better than 'polite' but I do understand that everyone's different. :)

Sounds like you prefer judgemental feedback. You do know that you hips don't understand the command drive yourselves forward, at least the way you mean, as there is some turning in the process. And the upper body lean at impact is hard to improve if you haven't got a good exercise to feel it.

You're the one who has to do it so its better if your feedback comes first.

Just my thoughts!

It's not that i prefer one over the other, its just that i see no need for un-necessary 'fluff' when taking instruction or playing. Even the occasional "oh nice shot" from fellow players is met with a reply of, "thanks" out of politeness rather than appreciation. I know it was good; i hit it. Haha The hips example was only an example :)

[Th3R00st3r]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

I know it was good; i hit it. Haha

[mchepp]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Even the occasional "oh nice shot" from fellow players is met with a reply of, "thanks" out of politeness rather than appreciation. I know it was good; i hit it. Haha

They are probably shocked and surprised that you actually hit a good shot that is why they said it. J/K

At least that's the way it is for me.

.......Alright back to the topic.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by mchepp

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Even the occasional "oh nice shot" from fellow players is met with a reply of, "thanks" out of politeness rather than appreciation. I know it was good; i hit it. Haha

They are probably shocked and surprised that you actually hit a good shot that is why they said it. J/K

At least that's the way it is for me.

.......Alright back to the topic.

You're not far wrong!

[colin007]

my issue is trying my hardest not to make that goofy grin i always make when i hit a great shot. acting like you been there before is really hard!

[The JollyGolfer]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Which one of these lessons is going to be more effective?

In my opinion, the student who has been led into finding the straight left arm position with his own feeling will be able to repeat and age this and the manipulated student with always be checking in mirrors or asking someone to have a look, relying on someone else's feedback/direction.

I bend my left elbow when I swing an like another golfer on the post, can see my club out of my left eye at the end of my backswing. My pro always puts me in the position I am trying to achieve but I feel as if i am only taking a half swing when I do this. I apparently bend my left elbow regardless and I also can't feel myself doing it. I like the idea of somehow being able to feel what is happening to my elbow during the swing but I can't.

What's wrong with me?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by The JollyGolfer

I bend my left elbow when I swing an like another golfer on the post, can see my club out of my left eye at the end of my backswing. My pro always puts me in the position I am trying to achieve but I feel as if i am only taking a half swing when I do this. I apparently bend my left elbow regardless and I also can't feel myself doing it. I like the idea of somehow being able to feel what is happening to my elbow during the swing but I can't.

What's wrong with me?

You can't feel it because that is what's "normal" or "natural" for you.

Need more extensor action.  Feel like you're applying pressure where the right hand touches the left and "push" the left hand away from the body throughout the backswing

[The JollyGolfer]

Originally Posted by mvmac

You can't feel it because that is what's "normal" or "natural" for you.

Need more extensor action.  Feel like you're applying pressure where the right hand touches the left and "push" the left hand away from the body throughout the backswing

Thank you,

I have tried this before and when I take a practice swing I can feel it OK but when I get a ball in front of me, I`m back to swinging with the same bent elbow.

Thats why I like the idea of feeling my elbow bending during the swing myself, but I can't. Why?

[The Tin Man]

Percy  Boomer wrote in an underrated book that it took him 25 years to learn to stop giving negative instructions.

Uselessly Negative: "YOUR CHUNKING!"

Negative: "You don't move your hips"

Positive: "Lets try doing this........"

PS:  The guy was decades before his time. I'll review the book when I get home in a week or two.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The Tin Man

Percy  Boomer wrote in an underrated book that it took him 25 years to learn to stop giving negative instructions.

Uselessly Negative: "YOUR CHUNKING!"

Negative: "You don't move your hips"

Positive: "Lets try doing this........"

PS:  The guy was decades before his time. I'll review the book when I get home in a week or two.

How would this be viewed:

1. You're having difficulty hitting the ball solidly.

2. Here's why.

3. Here's what we're going to work on to fix it.

I don't know whether that's "negative" or "positive" but if #2 and #3 are good, and #1 is one of the top priorities for the student at the time, the lesson will be a success, the student will get better, and be happy.

[The Tin Man]

I would take lessons from you

[mdl]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Erik, who's Erik. Are you all buddies? Is Erik the Gaffer?

....

I love these rude closing sentences. Its almost like spitting uncontrollably. You don't want to do it but due to your personality you can't help yourself. If I finished with that sentence iacas would be calling me a twit again.

This time I'll just point out that I made a bunch of very explicit, clear points about why you've garnered so much negative reaction.  You once again don't actually respond to the points I (or anyone else) has made (just maybe because I was right and the only reasonable response would be to apologize in one way or another and stop being so disrespectful in your posts), and instead dodge the issues with a response of silly asides and more defensive and passive aggressive insults.