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Hypocrites on the golf course


saevel25
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Originally Posted by sacm3bill

It also depends on what handicapping system you're playing under. In Great Britain and Ireland the CONGU system is used, in which you actually do need all scores attested by a playing partner. Not so when playing under the USGA system in the United Sates, or the RCGA in Canada.

(Although I should add, I believe Shorty's comment didn't reflect confusion about which handicap system was being used by the OP, but rather disdain for the non-CONGU systems.)


In Spain, you can only hand your card in for handicapping purposes if you've just played in a tournament. You cannot adjust your handicap simply playing with your buddies every week.

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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I like to play golf alone but I take it upon myself to golf at times and places where that is a possibility (ie - twilight at crappy courses) and, if it doesn't work out and I get paired up - oh well.

If somebody asks me to pair up with them I will almost always say yes.  The only exception would be if I am there with my wife and we are going really slow and then I tell the guy he wouldn't want to be tied down to us and I let him go through.

If any group, regardless of size, catches up to my group and there are holes open ahead one of 2 things will happen.  If there are holes open behind them, I will ask them to play through.  If the course is packed behind them then I will pick up my ball and get myself into position - even if that means skipping a hole.  I took a golf class at my local course and that's how pace of play ettiquette was explained to us and I think it makes a ton of sense.

Everybody should do that .. and nobody should hit into anybody else for any reason.  And then we'd all be fine and there wouldn't be fights and arguments at the golf course.  I don't know about any of you but there is no way I could play golf after an intense altercation with somebody.

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Its tough to say with the handicap. With golf you want to think everyone can be a gentlemen and play by the rules and post there own score. But I think the best way is to have someone contest that you did post that score by signing your card, to me that is the most honest, at least to appease those who think otherwise.

Quote:

I don't know about any of you but there is no way I could play golf after an intense altercation with somebody.

Yep, thats why i missed that putt on the last hole. I had so much adrenalin pumping through my my hands were shaking. The last time that happened was probably over 10 years ago. I kinda wished i drained that putt, just to get some satisfaction that he didn't cause me to miss it, and to at least know i can make a putt when i wired up on adrenalin, but on well..

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

In Spain, you can only hand your card in for handicapping purposes if you've just played in a tournament. You cannot adjust your handicap simply playing with your buddies every week.


You say that as if it's a bad thing. Suppose someone doesn't play or compete very often and they last played a tournament a year ago, and that their handicap based on that tournament and all previous ones is, say, 15.  Suppose they've been practicing a lot over the year since the last tournament they played in, and are now playing like a 5. Clearly their handicap would be more accurately reflected if they were required to post all their scores.

There are pros and cons in all systems.

Bill

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You tossed the ball or the guy?????

I don't know the answer but maybe you should let the club's authorities handle this kind of issues.....

Thing is, a lot of courses don't really have "authorities". They might have a ranger on weekend mornings who works for free golf, and a young kid working the register, and that's it. The club pro isn't always around either. Often golfers have to settle disputes themselves, hopefully in a polite manner..

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Originally Posted by sacm3bill

You say that as if it's a bad thing. Suppose someone doesn't play or compete very often and they last played a tournament a year ago, and that their handicap based on that tournament and all previous ones is, say, 15.  Suppose they've been practicing a lot over the year since the last tournament they played in, and are now playing like a 5. Clearly their handicap would be more accurately reflected if they were required to post all their scores.

There are pros and cons in all systems.


My intention wasn't to make it sound like a bad thing, merely state it as a fact.

I don't agree with it, but it is how it is over here. I fully agree with your comment.

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

You say that as if it's a bad thing. Suppose someone doesn't play or compete very often and they last played a tournament a year ago, and that their handicap based on that tournament and all previous ones is, say, 15.  Suppose they've been practicing a lot over the year since the last tournament they played in, and are now playing like a 5. Clearly their handicap would be more accurately reflected if they were required to post all their scores.

There are pros and cons in all systems.

My intention wasn't to make it sound like a bad thing, merely state it as a fact.

I don't agree with it, but it is how it is over here. I fully agree with your comment.


Gotcha, sorry I misunderstood.

Bill

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Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

In Spain, you can only hand your card in for handicapping purposes if you've just played in a tournament. You cannot adjust your handicap simply playing with your buddies every week.


In the US, the assumption is that anyone who makes the effort to carry a handicap has enough integrity to do it honestly.  And in my experience, 99.9% do.  It's a tiny minority that gives the system a bad name.  I played in a handicap men's club with a membership of 250 players for 22 years, and in that time we have had just 3 significant incidents of sandbagging where it was clearly intentional and blatant, and the handicap committee dealt with them harshly.  There were also a few members whose egos trumped good judgement, making carrying a vanity handicap irresistible to them.  I never really never worried about them, because if I played against them, it just made them easier to beat.

I've also known players who simply seemed to play better in competitions than they did in casual play.  It wasn't a conscious ploy, just a matter of being able to focus better when there was something on the line.  But that type of player also didn't play that often outside of competitions, because casual golf just wasn't usually interesting to them.  The few poor rounds played casually never had much of an effect on their handicaps, since only the 10 best of their last 20 rounds were used in the calculation.

That last bit is the key.  In order to sandbag under the USGA system, the player has to make a real effort to do so.  A few bad rounds will never be applied to his handicap, so it takes a significant effort to bring a handicap down to any significant degree.  Most accusations of sandbagging are just sour grapes - incidents where a player has an exceptional round or two during a competition - and the accuser is just showing poor sportsmanship.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

In Spain, you can only hand your card in for handicapping purposes if you've just played in a tournament. You cannot adjust your handicap simply playing with your buddies every week.

In the US, the assumption is that anyone who makes the effort to carry a handicap has enough integrity to do it honestly.  And in my experience, 99.9% do.  It's a tiny minority that gives the system a bad name.  I played in a handicap men's club with a membership of 250 players for 22 years, and in that time we have had just 3 significant incidents of sandbagging where it was clearly intentional and blatant, and the handicap committee dealt with them harshly.  There were also a few members whose egos trumped good judgement, making carrying a vanity handicap irresistible to them.  I never really never worried about them, because if I played against them, it just made them easier to beat.

I've also known players who simply seemed to play better in competitions than they did in casual play.  It wasn't a conscious ploy, just a matter of being able to focus better when there was something on the line.  But that type of player also didn't play that often outside of competitions, because casual golf just wasn't usually interesting to them.  The few poor rounds played casually never had much of an effect on their handicaps, since only the 10 best of their last 20 rounds were used in the calculation.

That last bit is the key.  In order to sandbag under the USGA system, the player has to make a real effort to do so.  A few bad rounds will never be applied to his handicap, so it takes a significant effort to bring a handicap down to any significant degree.  Most accusations of sandbagging are just sour grapes - incidents where a player has an exceptional round or two during a competition - and the accuser is just showing poor sportsmanship.



I wish we had a committee. Of our 80 member league I'd say there are at least a dozen sandbaggers. One lady (mixed league) plays from men's tees when she turns in rounds, but plays from the forward tees (same index) during competition. And people allow it. One lady shot at least 5 strokes below her index during every competition round (I'm buddies with one of her teammates and he has no idea when she ever plays a net plus round), Another guy plays every day, shoots in the mid-70s regularly, and didn't turn in a score between May and August last year. Last year was my first year there so I didn't want to rock the boat, but this year will be different. When I shoot to my index and lose by a hole or two, I have absolutely no problem with that. When I shoot lights out and lose 5 and 4, then I start to wonder. Maybe he just got luckier than I did, but when I have to give 8 strokes in 9-holes to someone putting for eagle, well that smells funny.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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This thread has really gone on a tangent.  I thought it was about a guy trying to murder another guy with a golf ball?

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I wish we had a committee. Of our 80 member league I'd say there are at least a dozen sandbaggers. One lady (mixed league) plays from men's tees when she turns in rounds, but plays from the forward tees (same index) during competition. And people allow it. One lady shot at least 5 strokes below her index during every competition round (I'm buddies with one of her teammates and he has no idea when she ever plays a net plus round),

If you do it correctly, this shouldn't make a difference.  She plays from the mens tees to develop her index, but when playing, you don't use your index, you use your course handicap (different for each set of tees) based off of your index, so she would get less strokes than if she played the whites during competition.

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Originally Posted by Golfingdad

This thread has really gone on a tangent.  I thought it was about a guy trying to murder another guy with a golf ball?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I wish we had a committee. Of our 80 member league I'd say there are at least a dozen sandbaggers. One lady (mixed league) plays from men's tees when she turns in rounds, but plays from the forward tees (same index) during competition. And people allow it. One lady shot at least 5 strokes below her index during every competition round (I'm buddies with one of her teammates and he has no idea when she ever plays a net plus round),

If you do it correctly, this shouldn't make a difference.  She plays from the mens tees to develop her index, but when playing, you don't use your index, you use your course handicap (different for each set of tees) based off of your index, so she would get less strokes than if she played the whites during competition.



Yeah, that would be great if they did that, but her index determined by playing the back tees is 20 and when she plays off the forward tees she still plays off a 20. I'm serious. I had a couple old guys tell me it was BS so I looked it up.

Regarding the tangent. Do we seriously need to rehash a guy who probably should have waited on the 18th tee since he'd caught the foursome on #17 and continue to read posts where people say "never ever hit a ball at someone - that bes dangerous!!".  A notorious hothead blasts a drive over an oblivious slowpoke's head - news at 11:00.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

Yeah, that would be great if they did that, but her index determined by playing the back tees is 20 and when she plays off the forward tees she still plays off a 20. I'm serious. I had a couple old guys tell me it was BS so I looked it up.

Regarding the tangent. Do we seriously need to rehash a guy who probably should have waited on the 18th tee since he'd caught the foursome on #17 and continue to read posts where people say "never ever hit a ball at someone - that bes dangerous!!".  A notorious hothead blasts a drive over an oblivious slowpoke's head - news at 11:00.


That is BS ... I guess you need to lobby to get on her team.

Ha.  Certainly not saying I want to keep talking about that, just amused at how it veered.

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Originally Posted by saevel25

Its tough to say with the handicap. With golf you want to think everyone can be a gentlemen and play by the rules and post there own score. But I think the best way is to have someone contest that you did post that score by signing your card, to me that is the most honest, at least to appease those who think otherwise.



If you are within the jurisdiction of the USGA it really doesn't matter what you think.  The rules are crystal clear that you post the score even if playing as a single.  But I am curious at the disconnect between your intense desire to play alone and your belief that it is better if scores are witnessed and attested to.  Frankly, if you are paired with a stranger the whole attestation is not really of much value, IMO.  Why would they take the trouble of really knowing if your score is accurate?  Honesty is in the heart of the player, not the signature of a stranger, IMO.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

In the US, the assumption is that anyone who makes the effort to carry a handicap has enough integrity to do it honestly.


This is the crux of the matter. The Spanish Golf Federation doesn't trust its own mother with a pencil and scorecard in hand. The Spaniards, latins in general, don't have the same view of cheating as Americans and North Europeans. If you 'cheat' and get away with it then you have been 'listo' which means clever. It's brushed off as part of the game. This is why whenever there is a tournament with a decent prize (trip, watch etc) up the grabs the leaderboard will look like this:

1. Juan -13

2. José -12

3. Pepe -12

4. Joaquin -12

5. Francisco -12

6. Carlos -11

7. Roberto -11

8. Diego -11

etc.

When I was taking my instructors' course, there was a section on handicaps and I asked the guy why we don't use the US handicapping system and he told me it's because for the Americans handicap is "just a number" but for Spaniards "it's a status". I'm still not sure what he meant by that.

No matter what system is used, people will find a way to take advantage of it.

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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Quote:
If you are within the jurisdiction of the USGA it really doesn't matter what you think.  The rules are crystal clear that you post the score even if playing as a single.  But I am curious at the disconnect between your intense desire to play alone and your belief that it is better if scores are witnessed and attested to.  Frankly, if you are paired with a stranger the whole attestation is not really of much value, IMO.  Why would they take the trouble of really knowing if your score is accurate?  Honesty is in the heart of the player, not the signature of a stranger, IMO

There is no disconnect, because i don't post a handicap in any system. Really never did, i don't play competitively so i don't bother. I was just thinking out my thought as to why it might more honest, at least to some critics, that you have someone co-sign your score card. But i am in agreement that a person, in the spirit of the game of golf, be able to have honesty with himself to post his true score with in the rules of the game. But i do not have ill will to those who think otherwise, i understand there concern that they do co-sign and yet someone goes out there and throws in a score card which isn't authenticated by another with its score, its hard for some to think he actually posted the score he did. I give people the benefit of the doubt, but some don't.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

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Man, I wish someone playing alone would join along with me. I always walk by myself when I play 9 after work during the week and it would be nice to have a partner. Hitting into someone is just stupid though.

I can't imagine something I would like to do less than check my phone on the golf course. I like to be as disconnected as possible out there.

As far adjusting your handicap when you play alone, well, either you can do it or you can't. You're either honest or your not. At the end of the day, you know what you shot and whether or not you gave yourself a "do over" or whatever. I count all my rounds towards my handicap. I played 9 after work yesterday and while practicing my pitch to the green, I made a swing a little too close to the ball. The grass I swung through caused the ball to move 4 or 5 inches down the hill. I could have easily not counted the stroke, but I took the stroke like I was supposed to.

Plus, you just end up looking like an idiot when you say you have a handicap and shoot 15 strokes over it. I played with a guy last year that claimed he had a 12 handicap and shot a 105 when we played. "Gimme a 5"...Ugh you mean a 7? I saw you chip it twice and putt 3 times bro. I had a 30 hdcp once, nothing to be embarrassed about. It is what it is.

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Forget about posting or not when playing alone.  It's not really any differnent than getting paired up with a random partner.  You both keep your own scores, neither cares what the other guy writes down, you shake hands on 18 and thats it.  Nobody's following anybody home to confirm they posted what they shot, so what's the difference between playing alone or with a stranger(s)?

What I want to ask the OP is:  What are you going to do if you hit a hole in one?  That is something you are going to hope somebody (anybody) saw.

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Originally Posted by Golfingdad

What I want to ask the OP is:  What are you going to do if you hit a hole in one?  That is something you are going to hope somebody (anybody) saw.


I play as a single nearly all of my rounds and in the summer when it is 100+ degrees out here, often times there is nobody to pair me with.  As much as I would love to have a hole in one I hope that it's not in this situation.

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Note: This thread is 4388 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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