2012 Arnold Palmer Invitational Discussion Thread

[jhwmusic]

I doubt that many guys at this level were ever intimidated by Tiger himself, but they can be thrown off their game by the huge crowds, both fans and press, that follow him.

I would have to strongly disagree with that statement...there are tons of guys at the time that were admitting that they are playing for 2nd cuz he is just that good...and that included some of the best players of the time...Davis Love, Ernie Els and numerous others were quoted saying that he was just that much better than everyone else. so basically what you are saying is that these guys played poorly because of tiger's fan base and the large crowds?...not because tiger was better. And that is why he was wining tournaments at a record setting pace by record setting margins? Because of the crowds? Tiger wasn't the first player to have a large crowd. If that is what you are saying, Tiger just happened to be the only person at "this level" that could handle it then.

[BallStriker]

I'll go ahead and ask the question....should this win come with an asterik because Rory wasn't in the field?

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by BallStriker

I'll go ahead and ask the question....should this win come with an asterik because Rory wasn't in the field?

No. Next question.

[TourSpoon]

He played with the lead beautifully. When it got to the point when he knew he could par in & win he stopped firing at the pins & hit the proper shot for the situation. Very Nicklaus-like.

The swing held up, which is huge. And now he now knows he can win again. Watch out.

Tiger deserves the win. Tough pin placements along with windy conditions made it a great test. Those scores were up today! Best wishes to Arnie!

[GolfBear]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Okay now I'm curious. Who would be a great wind player besides a guy that won in the wind? Are you saying there's a player out there that wouldn't contend until it started blowing then would rocket into contention?

What you're saying is illogical. If it was his talent that allowed him to win in the wind then he was a good enough to win in the wind. Ergo, a good wind player. If his talent was so far ahead of everyone else's that his game would degrade in the wind but still be ahead of the field's ability, then he was a good wind player - he was still better than everyone else. What more is needed?

Tom Watson is the best wind player I've ever seen.   It's not even close.

[GolfBear]

Originally Posted by BallStriker

I'll go ahead and ask the question....should this win come with an asterik because Rory wasn't in the field?

I don't believe you asterisk wins based on who is in the field.   If that's the case then you'd have to put an asterisk next to a lot of Nicklaus's records.    For that matter, everyone that one when Tiger had his meltdown.

Let's not forget, before his wife tried to kill him with a 2i, he won the U.S. Open on a broken freaking leg.

[brocks]

I would have to strongly disagree with that statement...there are tons of guys at the time that were admitting that they are playing for 2nd cuz he is just that good...and that included some of the best players of the time...Davis Love, Ernie Els and numerous others were quoted saying that he was just that much better than everyone else. so basically what you are saying is that these guys played poorly because of tiger's fan base and the large crowds?...not because tiger was better. And that is why he was wining tournaments at a record setting pace by record setting margins? Because of the crowds? Tiger wasn't the first player to have a large crowd. If that is what you are saying, Tiger just happened to be the only person at "this level" that could handle it then.

No, I'm not saying any of that. Tiger won so often because he was better than everybody else. When he was on his game, nobody could beat him. But he was only on his game a few weeks a year. Even in 2000, he won less than half the events he played. Over the years he was dominant, he won about a third of them. Which means, even if you thought his A game was unbeatable, he still had to prove he had his A game. Even guys that nobody considered elite golfers, like Bob May and Rich Beem and Michael Campbell and YE Yang, could beat him in the final rounds of majors where he was playing well (May shot lower than he did in the final round, but lost the playoff, while the other guys beat him in regulation). If guys like that weren't intimidated, then why would guys like Ernie and Phil be intimidated? Why would anyone be intimidated, since Tiger's not aiming his shots at them? You don't have to beat him up; you don't even have to bench press more than he does. All you have to do is shoot a lower score than he does. I just find it very difficult to believe that anybody who has played golf long enough and well enough to get a PGA card, or qualify for a major, would crumble at the thought of playing Tiger, or Jack, or Hogan. I don't see how they could ever get to the final group on Sunday if they were that easily intimidated. Nervous? Sure, but not intimidated. Dealing with the Tiger circus is another story. Almost all the players agree that it takes some getting used to. McDowell said so today. If you're used to playing with just your family and friends watching (and if you've ever attended a non-major, you know that even some of the really big names have very sparse crowds when they are not in contention), then suddenly having crowds twelve deep, and dozens of photographers scurrying for position, can easily be disconcerting. As for your quotes from guys saying they are playing for second, I challenge you to cite any that were from before the event started. Of course I can think of guys saying it after the third round of the 2000 US Open, when they were ten or twelve shots back, but that's not being intimidated, that's just being realistic. In fact, IIRC Tom Watson was one of the guys who said that at the time, and I'm pretty sure he is not easily intimidated.

[brocks]

Tom Watson is the best wind player I've ever seen.   It's not even close.

I'd have to go with Benny Goodman.

[jhwmusic]

Originally Posted by brocks

No, I'm not saying any of that.

Tiger won so often because he was better than everybody else. When he was on his game, nobody could beat him.

But he was only on his game a few weeks a year. Even in 2000, he won less than half the events he played. Over the years he was dominant, he won about a third of them.

Which means, even if you thought his A game was unbeatable, he still had to prove he had his A game. Even guys that nobody considered elite golfers, like Bob May and Rich Beem and Michael Campbell and YE Yang, could beat him in the final rounds of majors where he was playing well (May shot lower than he did in the final round, but lost the playoff, while the other guys beat him in regulation).

If guys like that weren't intimidated, then why would guys like Ernie and Phil be intimidated? Why would anyone be intimidated, since Tiger's not aiming his shots at them? You don't have to beat him up; you don't even have to bench press more than he does. All you have to do is shoot a lower score than he does.

I just find it very difficult to believe that anybody who has played golf long enough and well enough to get a PGA card, or qualify for a major, would crumble at the thought of playing Tiger, or Jack, or Hogan. I don't see how they could ever get to the final group on Sunday if they were that easily intimidated. Nervous? Sure, but not intimidated.

Dealing with the Tiger circus is another story. Almost all the players agree that it takes some getting used to. McDowell said so today. If you're used to playing with just your family and friends watching (and if you've ever attended a non-major, you know that even some of the really big names have very sparse crowds when they are not in contention), then suddenly having crowds twelve deep, and dozens of photographers scurrying for position, can easily be disconcerting.

As for your quotes from guys saying they are playing for second, I challenge you to cite any that were from before the event started. Of course I can think of guys saying it after the third round of the 2000 US Open, when they were ten or twelve shots back, but that's not being intimidated, that's just being realistic. In fact, IIRC Tom Watson was one of the guys who said that at the time, and I'm pretty sure he is not easily intimidated.

I see what you are saying and I understand that not EVERY player was intimidated, but you can be mentally intimidated without being physically intimidated.   All of the greats in every sport have had this intimidation factor.  Like how Babe Ruth would psych pitchers and completely throw them off their game...they were too scared to hang a curve or throw a fastball anywhere near the plate because they fear what he is capable of...Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali and so on all had "most" of their opponents beat before they stepped into the ring.  Guys like Magic Johnson or Larry Bird weren't intimidated but I guarantee you he was a wee bit worried when the bulls came into town.   But seeing that golf is an individual sport, I guarantee that almost the entire PGA tour was intimidated by Tiger while he was in his prime.  They can't D him up or block his punches.  So if he is just better, how can't you be somewhat intimidated?

And yes, the tiger circus is part of his intimidation...it does take time to get used to.   But the fact that he can hit shots that no other golfer can hit also plays a roll.  Many players have admitted that when he is on his game there is nothing you can do about it...he is just going to win because he is flat out better.  You don't think they know when Tiger is on his game?  They see him on the range, they talk amongst themselves. Some are better at worrying about themselves more than others, but that "Some" I am speaking of is a very small list.   I think it was Ernie who was playing with Tiger at Bay Hill (could have been somewhere else) when he hit that shot out of the right bunker across the water and Feherty's mic picked Ernie up saying "You have got to be fu$%ing kidding me" or something like that.  He was and is able to hit shots like that create his intimidation factor.

That's all I am saying.

[jhwmusic]

Originally Posted by brocks

I'd have to go with Benny Goodman.

Or Danny Noonan!   winds were really blowing that day!

[brocks]

I see what you are saying and I understand that not EVERY player was intimidated, but you can be mentally intimidated without being physically intimidated. All of the greats in every sport have had this intimidation factor. Like how Babe Ruth would psych pitchers and completely throw them off their game...they were too scared to hang a curve or throw a fastball anywhere near the plate because they fear what he is capable of

I understand that, but IMO it doesn't apply to golf. Babe Ruth could hit your best fastball out of the park. Tiger Woods can't do a damn thing about how you hit your driver. Maybe we are using different definitions of "intimidation." I think it is very likely that a lot of players saw they were four shots behind Tiger, and figured that he would not back up, so they thought they needed birdies and eagles to win, and attempted very risky shots, usually with bad results. I don't call that intimidation, I call it being forced out of your game plan. But I can't believe that elite players were simply afraid to play against Tiger. All those guys think that they can beat anybody if they play their best. [quote] You don't think they know when Tiger is on his game? They see him on the range, they talk amongst themselves. Some are better at worrying about themselves more than others, but that "Some" I am speaking of is a very small list. I think it was Ernie who was playing with Tiger at Bay Hill (could have been somewhere else) when he hit that shot out of the right bunker across the water and Feherty's mic picked Ernie up saying "You have got to be fu$%ing kidding me" or something like that. He was and is able to hit shots like that create his intimidation factor. [/quote] No, they don't know he's on his game until he goes out and shoots a 63 or whatever. Tiger is notorious for looking great on the range, and then having an off day. He runs hot and cold like every player. He was dominant because his cold days were better, and less frequent, than for most players, but anybody with a card --- Ben Curtis, Shaun Micheel, anybody --- could beat him if they had a hot week, and he didn't. He went 68-68-67 one Thursday through Saturday this year, and three weeks later, he went 71-68-69. He reportedly looked great on the range the Sundays of those two weeks, but on the first Sunday he shot a 75, and on the second, he shot a 62. His game didn't improve that much in three weeks, it's just the difference between hot and cold. As for hitting shots that other people can't --- he's not the only one. Lots of pros say "How the $@#$ does he do that?" about Phil's short game. Tiger himself says the same about Gary Woodland's drives, and reportedly said something similar about the 50-foot eagle putt McDowell made today. None of those cases show intimidation, it's just respect for ability. I'm not a mind reader, so I can't prove any of this, but everything I've read says that you just don't find world class athletes who are easily intimidated.

[jhwmusic]

Originally Posted by brocks

I understand that, but IMO it doesn't apply to golf. Babe Ruth could hit your best fastball out of the park. Tiger Woods can't do a damn thing about how you hit your driver.

Maybe we are using different definitions of "intimidation." I think it is very likely that a lot of players saw they were four shots behind Tiger, and figured that he would not back up, so they thought they needed birdies and eagles to win, and attempted very risky shots, usually with bad results. I don't call that intimidation, I call it being forced out of your game plan. But I can't believe that elite players were simply afraid to play against Tiger. All those guys think that they can beat anybody if they play their best.

No, they don't know he's on his game until he goes out and shoots a 63 or whatever. Tiger is notorious for looking great on the range, and then having an off day. He runs hot and cold like every player. He was dominant because his cold days were better, and less frequent, than for most players, but anybody with a card --- Ben Curtis, Shaun Micheel, anybody --- could beat him if they had a hot week, and he didn't.

He went 68-68-67 one Thursday through Saturday this year, and three weeks later, he went 71-68-69. He reportedly looked great on the range the Sundays of those two weeks, but on the first Sunday he shot a 75, and on the second, he shot a 62. His game didn't improve that much in three weeks, it's just the difference between hot and cold.

As for hitting shots that other people can't --- he's not the only one. Lots of pros say "How the $@#$ does he do that?" about Phil's short game. Tiger himself says the same about Gary Woodland's drives, and reportedly said something similar about the 50-foot eagle putt McDowell made today. None of those cases show intimidation, it's just respect for ability.

I'm not a mind reader, so I can't prove any of this, but everything I've read says that you just don't find world class athletes who are easily intimidated.

I said I realize golf is an individual sport and is different in the sense that you can't play defense or block a punch.  Did you even read the whole post?

I know Tiger can't physically do anything about how you hit your driver.  But if he makes you nervous, you are intimidated by him, Right?  Some just want to prove themselves to the best player and try too hard and hit it all over the lot.  By even getting in their heads like that, they are in fact intimidated.  They won't admit it, but you know it creeps into their mind.  They don't want to make a fool out themselves.  So if he can make you nervous, he can affect how you hit shots.  And I'm not talking about Tiger in the present day...I am talking when he was dominating almost every tournament he entered.  But he is well on his way back to that point.  Granted he will have Rory and few others to fight it out with, but the rest of the field sees when certain players have what they don't....and that intimidates them.  Rory has an intimidation factor, Phil has it, and so do some others to an extent when they are on their game.  Intimidation is the same as nerves.

And the looking good on the range and not taking it the course happens to every golfer on the planet.  So I don't even buy into that.   I'm talking when he has that swagger, when he truly has killer instinct.  They know when he's got it and when he doesn't.

I totally get everything you are saying...and you're side of it...and agree to some point.    But you can't say that there aren't players out there that aren't intimidated by Tiger Woods...our at least by the being in his presence.  Come on!   I there are people out there like Phil and Gary that do things that others can't.  But Gary and Phil don't have 72 wins and 14 majors.  Nicklaus had it in his day, Hogan, Bobby jones and so on.  Lesser players would crumble because they would get too caught up in playing with these guys...which is a form of intimidation.

[brocks]

Intimidation is the same as nerves.

So we *are* using different definitions.

[jhwmusic]

Originally Posted by brocks

So we *are* using different definitions.

Guess so.  I thought I pointed that out in my first reply...maybe not.  I know I meant to

[Acropo]

Originally Posted by BallStriker

I'll go ahead and ask the question....should this win come with an asterik because Rory wasn't in the field?

That thought occured to me, too!

(But I would have referred to 'the World Number One'!)

:-D

[TourSpoon]

Actually, Rory is the old number one...Master Luke is now back in charge of the Universe...for the time being.

For those of you downplaying the wind yesterday in Orlando (and I went back and re-read comments) it was pretty gusty (over 20 mph). It was windy down south of Orlando, so I witnessed it for myself and after talking to people in the Orlando area, it was a factor in the day's scoring, certainly not a gale but strong enough to keep the field from beating the course. Tiger's immediate comments about his win confirm this, " It was just pure joy. You know, it was tough today. It was tough conditions out there, man. Wind was whipping out there. It was changing directions and intensities. Arnold did a hell of a job of getting these greens fast, and they were baked out and some of the hardest pins I've ever seen here. So I don't know what the average score was today, but certainly wasn't anywhere near par. It was a tough day. It was a very tough day."

He handled it very well, hit the shots required, and got up and down when he misjudged it as he has at times in the British, Doral, Pebble, Torrey, and any other time during his 70 plus worldwide victories. The fact that he and others may feel that wind is not his strength may be correct, as we all know that his real strength is winning golf tournaments in all types of conditions.

[BruceMGF]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Actually, Rory is the old number one...Master Luke is now back in charge of the Universe...for the time being.

The "Rory Era" sure was short, wasn't it?  :-)

[mtsalmela80]

Yeah but what if he played in that tournament that Luke won, and/or played at Bay Hill and placed well, wouldn't he have maintained the number 1 ranking?

Originally Posted by BruceMGF

The "Rory Era" sure was short, wasn't it?  :-)