Is shaping the ball overrated

[Paradox]

I was referring to there being a low lofted hybrid in stores around me but I did start looking online last night and found a few that I like that were 15 degrees...would be great for me off the tee when the driver is being a bad child.

[logman]

"Loft does not change launch angle"......Um? what?. "Higher loft does not make the club more forgiving, unless you hit it off the deck"....Is that right?, I don't get that. And, "You have to make the most out of every club in the bag and a chipper can't do anything except chip" ....yes but the putter only putts and the driver only gets used off the tee.

[Precis1on]

Your putter is used more than any other club in the bag :P.

Higher loft makes the club more "forgiving" to an extent. The lower lofted the club, the less backspin and more sidespin it tends to put on the ball (according to my fitter). So yes, in essence is is more forgiving, but that's in the physics, not because it has a larger sweet spot.

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by logman

"Loft does not change launch angle"......Um? what?. "Higher loft does not make the club more forgiving, unless you hit it off the deck"....Is that right?, I don't get that. And, "You have to make the most out of every club in the bag and a chipper can't do anything except chip" ....yes but the putter only putts and the driver only gets used off the tee.

This statement is true in that loft ALONE does not change launch angle.  You can get a higher lofted club but have a steeper angle of attack and or deloft it more and have no change in launch angle.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stogiesnbogies

Lower lofted drivers in the hands of amateurs are very unforgiving...the higher the loft the bigger the" sweet spot of forgiveness"...aka less slice= more fairways...if its windy just tee the ball down a tad and continue hitting fairways....

and perhaps in your view the chipper is a "one dimensional club" but I can hit mine for those lovely bump and runs from 100 yards out -and then some....hitting an elevated wedge approach shot when a simple bump and run will get you to the dance floor safely is poor course management at best and ego driven foolishness at worst ( a side effect of watching too much PGA Tour Pro golf!)...

a wedge shot approach is what I was refering to as a low percentage shot for many amateurs as I see guys missing greens all over the course...some call it "old guy" golf but its far more common in Europe to simply hit a long bump and run ...then reach for the "Great Equalizer" -the putter to slay another opponent who hits his tee shots a country mile....I dont elevate my wedge shots unless I've got something between me and the green (bunker, etc.)

The modern chipper is far from a single purpose club:...have you read up on the Cleveland Niblick...which states clearly its multipurpose functions:  Pitch, Chip , Approach and Rescue.....all of my wedges are Cleveland Niblicks which gives me at least 4 ways to use each one....and I'm only carrying 12 clubs as it is , mate!! (Dont need the woods as my hybrids are far more accurate with relatively little loss of distance...)

The 37, 42,49 and 56 degree Niblicks have takens scads of strokes off my game in short order -in a fashion that would have taken forever with traditional wedges....one of the more revealing experiments conducted with the Cleveland Niblicks involved a series of shots by low and higher handicaps with their own wedges and the Cleveland Niblicks...in ALL cases the Niblick shots averaged closer to the pin ...yet the higher handicaps said they would still not be willing to make room for one in their bags....pure ego?!

I'm a "shortest distance between two points" kinda guy myself and would not flinch at using a purple club with pink polka dots were it usga conforming and helped my game!!  LOL

Hate to say, but if you can typically bump and run from 100 yards, then you are playing a very different style of golf course from what I do most of the time.  Granted that there are a few holes which might allow such a shot, it takes a near perfect execution to be effective.  Most of the time it will get caught up in rough fronting the green, end up in a bunker, or catch the fairway slope and drift to one side or the other.  I've been chipping with mix of clubs - 7, 8, 9, or wedge ( I carry 3 - PW, GW, and 56°) for 40 years.  I can't imagine why the technique should change just because someone managed to find a way to get some players to spend more money unnecessarily.

Quote:

Takes much less time to learn these shots with a good chipper and enjoy watching the "purists" chilidip and skull their 56 or, even more laughable, their 60 degree wedges.. With chippers "All it takes is learning proper technique and understanding how clubs work"  as you say...and when you fool around with a good chipper that fits your game you can quickly become something of a magician of the short game...

Any player who knows what he's doing doesn't use a 56° unless the shot calls for it.  I'd love to challenge you to an up and down contest some day.  I'm not saying who would win, but you also wouldn't see me blading lofted wedges from hardpan when a PW or 8 iron would be the right club.  And since my handicap isn't far off from what you have posted, it wouldn't be an unfair match in that respect either.  Just FYI, I came out of the gate this year after not touching a club for more than 3 months, holing 2 chips in my first round.  I've played 5 rounds now and holed out at least one chip in every round, and gotten up and down on most near misses - without spending one minute practicing.  All it takes is learning the proper technique, then applying the same stroke to whatever club the shot requires.

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by Paradox

This statement is true in that loft ALONE does not change launch angle.  You can get a higher lofted club but have a steeper angle of attack and or deloft it more and have no change in launch angle.

Yes, that's right. Logman misquoted or misunderstood; I actually meant loft does change LA all things being equal, but that there were other things it did affect and that the swing type had a much bigger effect on LA than loft.

A higher loft club can be considered more forgiving in that it achieves higher launch and spin than a lower lofted similar club, allowing a player who generates less ball speed to get the ball to carry farther. It does not go significantly straighter from what I've seen, though it may have a small effect. Head design and shaft length will help a club go straighter much more though.

Fair point though, I agree the putter is a one use club, but it's established as a crucial one for a standard game and no one save Patrick57 would argue it doesn't save lots of strokes for a single club. If there was a tournament with reduced club limits, I'd probably ditch the putter if it were limited to 6 clubs or less, but by that point it'd be shenanigans anyway and I'd shoot π over whatever. There's no rule requiring one, so you're welcome to leave it out of the bag. I could putt OK with my 4 iron on the occasions I tried, but you can't roll the ball properly so distance control is very hard and variations in the surface can do odd things. I can still aim well with it but I'd probably pick up 4 or 5 strokes a round without a putter, and ditto for a bladed wedge; it either skids or pops up. I could hole almost as many 8 footers as a putter, but the misses were often 3-4 feet off in distance. You can also use a hybrid or wood as a belly putter, and it rolls well, but you can't stand right over the ball and align properly unless you bend the lie 12 or so degrees up. Those 4-5 strokes are a huge difference; I'd say if you blade or chunk a chip twice a round with a wedge, but never mishit the chipper and hole 2 chips a round, it's worth considering. Then again, so are some lessons with that wedge.

[QuazerSKITS]

Originally Posted by logman

"Loft does not change launch angle"......Um? what?. "Higher loft does not make the club more forgiving, unless you hit it off the deck"....Is that right?, I don't get that. And, "You have to make the most out of every club in the bag and a chipper can't do anything except chip" ....yes but the putter only putts and the driver only gets used off the tee.

What about driver off the deck? The assistant pro at my club hits his specialty shot which is the driver off the deck... Long Par 5's = No Problem

[luu5]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

A higher loft club can be considered more forgiving in that it achieves higher launch and spin than a lower lofted similar club, allowing a player who generates less ball speed to get the ball to carry farther. It does not go significantly straighter from what I've seen, though it may have a small effect. Head design and shaft length will help a club go straighter much more though.

So you can slice SW as easily (and as much) as 3i?

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by QuazerSKITS

What about driver off the deck? The assistant pro at my club hits his specialty shot which is the driver off the deck... Long Par 5's = No Problem

And you can use a  3 wood to chip. Or you can putt out of a bunker.

If your assistant pro hits long par 5s in 2 with his driver with "no problem", he wouldn't be an assistant pro.

Pros do it occasionally off good lies on certain par 5s. None do it regularly and with "no problem". Not with today's drivers.

[meenman]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Hate to say, but if you can typically bump and run from 100 yards, then you are playing a very different style of golf course from what I do most of the time.  Granted that there are a few holes which might allow such a shot, it takes a near perfect execution to be effective.  Most of the time it will get caught up in rough fronting the green, end up in a bunker, or catch the fairway slope and drift to one side or the other.  I've been chipping with mix of clubs - 7, 8, 9, or wedge ( I carry 3 - PW, GW, and 56°) for 40 years.  I can't imagine why the technique should change just because someone managed to find a way to get some players to spend more money unnecessarily.

The Niblick may not be for everyone - but for me it has taken 5 strokes off of my game. It is for more that just the bump and run too. For me, it is the best club to hit out of deep rough. It is also good for a decent pitch shot (although that would just be replication of my PW). I wouldnt use it from 100 yards out for a bump and run, but anything under 80, I am likely to use it.

I generally use it when I am short of the green - I will often play my shots so my miss is short and leaves me a straight line to the pin. The number of 1 putts it generates for me is insane.

I find that the more GIRs I go for from 150+ out, the more I end up in bunkers. My bunker game is either on or off - unfortunately there is no in-between.

[QuazerSKITS]

Originally Posted by Shorty

And you can use a  3 wood to chip. Or you can putt out of a bunker.

If your assistant pro hits long par 5s in 2 with his driver with "no problem", he wouldn't be an assistant pro.

Pros do it occasionally off good lies on certain par 5s. None do it regularly and with "no problem". Not with today's drivers.

The only reason he's classed as an assistant pro is because he's only just started his PGA schooling. So until he passes that, which i believe is about 2-3years, he is classed as the assistant pro to the PGA Pro at my pro shop. Its nothing to do with his golfing ability. +2 golfer, 4 time club champ one of only 2 to successfully defend it, but doesn't mean he can skip 3 years of schooling.

I didn't say he hit the driver off the deck "no problem". I said that because he can hit the diver off the deck, long 5's are "no problem". It was more a joke. That being said, if he had a good lie in the fairway I'd bet on him ripping it 9/10 and im being 100% honest there! haha. Just having the confidence to go for it coupled with the ability to pull it off...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Paradox

This statement is true in that loft ALONE does not change launch angle.  You can get a higher lofted club but have a steeper angle of attack and or deloft it more and have no change in launch angle.

Changing those things doesn't mean "alone." Alone in this case meant "all else being the same." That's how I took it.

Originally Posted by Shorty

If your assistant pro hits long par 5s in 2 with his driver with "no problem", he wouldn't be an assistant pro.

Pros do it occasionally off good lies on certain par 5s. None do it regularly and with "no problem". Not with today's drivers.

I can do it pretty much whenever I'd like. Doesn't mean I'm anywhere close to being on the PGA Tour. PGA Tour players don't do it often because they rarely need a driver to reach a par five in two. We'd see it more often if every par five played 650 yards and accepted a cut for the second shot (the 18th at Kapalua doesn't favor righties hitting driver for their second shot, which is why Bubba could hit that shot).

And the reason PGA Tour players don't do it is often the same reason I don't do it very often: I don't need to, or the opportunity doesn't present itself (i.e. it's not the smartest play). You only get a little bit more yardage than a properly struck 3W. It's useful when you can let the ball roll out quite a bit or there's wind AND you're in that weird distance where a 3W won't quite get you there.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

Changing those things doesn't mean "alone." Alone in this case meant "all else being the same." That's how I took it.

I can do it pretty much whenever I'd like. Doesn't mean I'm anywhere close to being on the PGA Tour. PGA Tour players don't do it often because they rarely need a driver to reach a par five in two. We'd see it more often if every par five played 650 yards and accepted a cut for the second shot (the 18th at Kapalua doesn't favor righties hitting driver for their second shot, which is why Bubba could hit that shot).

And the reason PGA Tour players don't do it is often the same reason I don't do it very often: I don't need to, or the opportunity doesn't present itself (i.e. it's not the smartest play). You only get a little bit more yardage than a properly struck 3W. It's useful when you can let the ball roll out quite a bit or there's wind AND you're in that weird distance where a 3W won't quite get you there.

I hit driver off the deck when needed too, and I'm nobody's idea of anything close to a pro.  I hit it best out of light rough when the ball is sitting up slightly, and I wouldn't try it from hardpan. but it's a shot I've had for more than 20 years.  At one time I couldn't hit a 3W, but I carried 2 drivers, TM Tour Driver 8.5° and the original model of the Burner at 9.5°, the Burner being my fairway wood.  That was in the late 80's and early 90's.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by iacas

I can do it pretty much whenever I'd like. Doesn't mean I'm anywhere close to being on the PGA Tour. PGA Tour players don't do it often because they rarely need a driver to reach a par five in two. We'd see it more often if every par five played 650 yards and accepted a cut for the second shot (the 18th at Kapalua doesn't favor righties hitting driver for their second shot, which is why Bubba could hit that shot).

The 18th at Kapalua is a driver, 4-iron!

As for people who are throwing the driver and putter into the mix of "single shot" clubs, that's just silly.  The putter may have only one use, but that single use accounts for between 40% and 45% of my strokes.  If you said I could use only two clubs, one of them would be a putter.

The driver may have only one (realistic for 85% of golfers) use, which is to hit off the tee, but that one use is pretty important and unique.  It's the longest shot you have, which is why it's the club you use to start off between 8-14 holes per round.  If you can hit any other club in your bag as long as your driver, then you might as well get rid of your driver.

[saevel25]

Honestly, i don't see the need for it.. Driver clubfaces are to large, and the sweet spot is way to high up the clubface for anyone to get good contact with the ball. You almost have to have a severe down hit with the driver to hit it off the deck. 3-woods with there shallower face really are the best bet for hitting the ball of the deck. Even then i would recommend people go to hybrids over woods.

As for shaping shots, i think it depends on the player. It can be for some, if they are really comfortable hitting on shot type, then thats cool. Just know you take liability if you go after a tight pin and the ball doesn't curve back. Or you can just assume your going after pins that only fit to your shot shape and play it safe on all other holes. So times, the pin placements might be in your favor or not.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Or you can just assume your going after pins that only fit to your shot shape and play it safe on all other holes.

This is a fantastic comment, and from my observations one of the biggest differences between pros and good amateurs.  Knowing which way your ball is going to move most of the time, choosing (based on that shape) which pins to attack, and having the control to lay off the rest.

Maybe that level of discipline is the product of being in an environment where every shot really does count so much.  I'm just out there in search of perfection, so I go for pretty much everything.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradox

This statement is true in that loft ALONE does not change launch angle.  You can get a higher lofted club but have a steeper angle of attack and or deloft it more and have no change in launch angle.

Yes, that's right. Logman misquoted or misunderstood; I actually meant loft does change LA all things being equal, but that there were other things it did affect and that the swing type had a much bigger effect on LA than loft.

A higher loft club can be considered more forgiving in that it achieves higher launch and spin than a lower lofted similar club, allowing a player who generates less ball speed to get the ball to carry farther. It does not go significantly straighter from what I've seen, though it may have a small effect. Head design and shaft length will help a club go straighter much more though.

Fair point though, I agree the putter is a one use club, but it's established as a crucial one for a standard game and no one save Patrick57 would argue it doesn't save lots of strokes for a single club. If there was a tournament with reduced club limits, I'd probably ditch the putter if it were limited to 6 clubs or less, but by that point it'd be shenanigans anyway and I'd shoot π over whatever. There's no rule requiring one, so you're welcome to leave it out of the bag. I could putt OK with my 4 iron on the occasions I tried, but you can't roll the ball properly so distance control is very hard and variations in the surface can do odd things. I can still aim well with it but I'd probably pick up 4 or 5 strokes a round without a putter, and ditto for a bladed wedge; it either skids or pops up. I could hole almost as many 8 footers as a putter, but the misses were often 3-4 feet off in distance. You can also use a hybrid or wood as a belly putter, and it rolls well, but you can't stand right over the ball and align properly unless you bend the lie 12 or so degrees up. Those 4-5 strokes are a huge difference; I'd say if you blade or chunk a chip twice a round with a wedge, but never mishit the chipper and hole 2 chips a round, it's worth considering. Then again, so are some lessons with that wedge.

There does appear to be some extra text in the post logman quoted now, like the word "just" in the first sentence for example. I think he's trolling (are logman and stogies the same person?) but when I read his reply, my first thought was, "that's exactly what I was thinking". Maybe I misinterpreted it the first time as well - I read it when I got up for work at ~ 04:30 MST.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by k-troop

The 18th at Kapalua is a driver, 4-iron!

Uhm, obviously not always.