LPGA blows it with Morgan Pressel slow play penalty

[zeg]

I think it's amusing that people talk about "letting the players win or lose" as if the referees are somehow responsible for those players commiting fouls. Basketball refs letting obvious travels go uncalled is not something fans should be crowing about as though it's a good thing.

Rules that are only enforced when there's nothing on the line aren't really rules .

[x129]

What is unfair is that only certain situations are timed.  Should't the whole match  be contested under the same rules?  My understanding is that she wasn't warned. Her group was warned. How much of that warning is her fault is tough to say.  Was Morgan's play slow on this hole? Maybe but it was also pretty reasonable. There wasn't anything blatant but more a series of things of having the honor, the wind shifting, missing the green which left a tricky pitch, and being left with a putt that wasn't a gimme that all added up to a slow hole.  On one hole that is fine to me. If it happens on every hole, it would be an issue. Now you can say Morgan could have played faster earlier to get off the clock. In my experience it is really tough to pick up the pace when your playing with a slug.  My understanding is that on the PGA should would have been ok and if she would have missed the putt, she would have been in the  LPGA limit also(but it would have been real close). Seems odd that making a shot results in a worse result than missing it.  It is easy to say play faster. But it is hard to do without ruining your rhythm.  It feels bad to have a rule like this effect the result (yeah I know about the rules are rules people. You hear about them every time a HS athlete gets disqualified for something like wearing the wrong shade of black socks or who has a logo that is .25" too big) but as Tiger said a 5k fines doesn't change much.  Maybe huge fines (50% of the winnings?) is the solution. Or maybe this is one of those things that will not happen enough to matter.

.

Quote:

The letter of the rule vs. the spirit of the rule? Oh fer crissakes people.

The best rules are the ones that are both clearly written and clearly followed.

The spirit of the rule is not for players to take as long as they want regardless of how many matches are on the course. It's poor etiquette, lousy for the fans, and just inconsiderate.

The penalty was appropriate. She was warned TWICE? Give me a break.

It's still not enough, but at least the LPGA has balls where the PGA Tour does not when it comes to slow play.

[Mr. Desmond]

Hey, some people are not into nuance or looking at the entire set of facts or the particular situation.

Only one fact matters to them - a rule is broken and someone must be punished. I wonder if they are accountable in the same way?

[rustyredcab]

I wish I could see the play in question. Why won't the Golf Channel show the entire hole with the sequence?

I also really wonder what exactly is 30 seconds. From what time?

As for the rule, it seems silly that the group is put on the clock and then all players in the group are warned. From what they are saying on GC, MP was not the cause of the group being slow. Yet, at that point she gets no break.

Reminds me of a pitcher throwing at a batter and both benches being warned. Next pitch too close and you are tossed even if it is the first brush-back of the game or an accident.

I did not hear about two warnings this morning on Morning Drive. I thought I heard, on the clock, then penalty. Again, no footage of the actual slow play that caused the penalty. And if the penalty happened through the green, why did they let them play out the hole? The penalty is loss of hole, not a stroke. When they assessed the penalty, the hole was over.

[jimmizu]

Originally Posted by wolfsburg2

SHe had received 2 warning already and then still played agonizingly slow when she knew she was on the clock. I am 100% okay with it.

I wish the PGA demonstrated the same integrity to it's slow play rule.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by iacas

The letter of the rule vs. the spirit of the rule? Oh fer crissakes people. Golf isn't the frickin' NFL.

The best rules are the ones that are both clearly written and clearly followed.

The spirit of the rule is not for players to take as long as they want regardless of how many matches are on the course. It's poor etiquette, lousy for the fans, and just inconsiderate.

The penalty was appropriate. She was warned TWICE? Give me a break.

It's still not enough, but at least the LPGA has balls where the PGA Tour does not when it comes to slow play.

Do you think the slow play rule is clearly written?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Well, maybe because there was no urgency. Look at it this way - what would happen if she went, say, 30 seconds over the time limit? What consequence occurs? The network squeezing in one less commercial is all I can come up with.

I will reference other sports (again) - nobody goes to a football game to watch refs throw flags. And nobody watches a golf tourament to see players get gigged with penalty shots.

What consequence occurs if I put my ball down on the green two inches to the left of where it's supposed to go? If I tee up three club lengths behind the tee markers? If I graze a tiny little loose stick while hitting out of a water hazard in a playoff at Harbour Town that has no effect at all on my shot?

Who are you to judge what "consequence" occurs? Match play is full of little examples of gamesmanship. Pressel even accused her of touching the line of her putt later in the match - should we have again asked "what consequence occurs?" if that infraction had been deemed to have occurred as well? I don't think so.

Other sports are immaterial to this discussion.

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Do you think the slow play rule is clearly written?

Morgan hasn't said it was unclear. The LPGA has penalized several players, and none of them have said it's unclear. So yes.

Besides, if you play fast enough and it wouldn't matter how the rule was written.

[Motley01]

I agree with the penalties that they issued.

See when people watch this slow play, they then go to their local golf course and try to imitate the same things. That's why we have people out there plumb-bobing there putts, for there 10th shot. It's rediculous,

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Hey, some people are not into nuance or looking at the entire set of facts or the particular situation.

Only one fact matters to them - a rule is broken and someone must be punished. I wonder if they are accountable in the same way?

The time to consider nuance is when writing or modifying the rule, not in the middle of a competition.

I really don't understand your point with the second line. There is a name for breaking a rule in a game and ignoring the penalty: "cheating." In a game with hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line, I think the players can take a little care to stick to the rules. Whether or not the particular golfer was personally responsible for her group being on the clock, she knew that she was. She made the decision to take her time. She has no one to blame but herself (and maybe her caddy).

[jerryleal]

Golf is some 600 years old with the USGA and the "Royal and Ancient..." as the ruling bodies- it's a damn shame when all of the tradition and honor of the game has to take a back seat to Television Money- and that's what this is really about. All of the rules in match play are designed to keep equity between the players in the match- if they're both slow-no-one has an advantage. If there's no-one behind them slowed down-who has been harmed?  Some companies decided that the game will generate more revenue if it's played faster-so now it's a hot topic-it's an outrage- that this pure and ancient sport is following all the rest of the sports in the money mania. If you want to assess a dollar fine-$5,000 or so- go for it- but do it across the board to every one, but $300,00 for an additional 10 seconds (from changing the outcome and snatching away the winners purse) is scandalous  - how many of those officials would forfeit their paycheck for taking 10 extra seconds? -when those same officials will take 10 minutes to check a video tape- it's hypocritical at best. I heard announcers call Morgan "petty" for calling a foul- the same announcers who defended the 'LPGA' for defending the integrity of the rules.Shame on the LPGA -you really have to wonder if the fine would have been enforced if a different player was the scapegoat-Tiger spitting $#@! or if a corporate darling was at fault. There's no way to do it fairly or consistently-allow the players' conscience to rule--it's worked that way for centuries. These are professional that we're talking about.

[Chas]

Finally, a golfing organization taking slow play seriously.  Pity it wasn't the PGA.

The punishment fit the "crime" perfectly - as specified by the rules.  If a player doesn't want to be at risk of a penalty, he or she should make sure to play with sufficient speed, especially when already given two warnings.

The argument that a player is being unfairly singled out because others who violate aren't punished is like saying that noone should be given a speeding ticket on the freeway because half of motorists are exceeding the limit.

Not exactly.

[The Recreational Golfer]

It's not like Pressel was three seconds over the time limit, folks. It was 29 seconds over, 39 seconds over the rule if you throw in the "grace period" to account for things like having to change your club because the wind shifts.

What galls me is pros agonizing over the shot and then still hitting a clinker. I have yet to see anyone in a golf tournament on TV play better because they play slowly, or play worse because they have to speed up. Correct me if you have. Whatever happened to "miss 'em quick"?

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by zeg

The time to consider nuance is when writing or modifying the rule, not in the middle of a competition.

I really don't understand your point with the second line. There is a name for breaking a rule in a game and ignoring the penalty: "cheating." In a game with hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line, I think the players can take a little care to stick to the rules. Whether or not the particular golfer was personally responsible for her group being on the clock, she knew that she was. She made the decision to take her time. She has no one to blame but herself (and maybe her caddy).

There is a rule, and there is a "right" way and a "wrong" way to apply the rule, and a right time and wrong time to actually apply such a rule.

When was the rule last applied?

This is not stroke play ... this is match play. If they had not applied the rule in a long time or sporadically, they picked the wrong time to apply the rule.

They sucked in the application of the rule.

But if they wanted to bring attention to their Tour, they succeeded.

The point in the second part of my quote is rhetorical - are those applauding the application of the rule at this time accountable to rules? i.e. do they let themselves off scott-free, or do they admit or take responsibility in their life? Or do they use excuses to skirt the rules, their wives, their friends, their poor golf play?

[x129]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

I wish I could see the play in question. Why won't the Golf Channel show the entire hole with the sequence?

I also really wonder what exactly is 30 seconds. From what time?

As for the rule, it seems silly that the group is put on the clock and then all players in the group are warned. From what they are saying on GC, MP was not the cause of the group being slow. Yet, at that point she gets no break.

Reminds me of a pitcher throwing at a batter and both benches being warned. Next pitch too close and you are tossed even if it is the first brush-back of the game or an accident.

I did not hear about two warnings this morning on Morning Drive. I thought I heard, on the clock, then penalty. Again, no footage of the actual slow play that caused the penalty. And if the penalty happened through the green, why did they let them play out the hole? The penalty is loss of hole, not a stroke. When they assessed the penalty, the hole was over.

What if the other player plays too slow on that hole? They played most of the hole in in the wrap up show after the match. It wasn't a Kevin Na taking 50s to pull the trigger on a shot. It was the wind changed I need a new club. I need to walk up to the green to see where to land this pitch and this putt is to win the hole most likely I need to get it right.

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer

It's not like Pressel was three seconds over the time limit, folks. It was 29 seconds over, 39 seconds over the rule if you throw in the "grace period" to account for things like having to change your club because the wind shifts.

What galls me is pros agonizing over the shot and then still hitting a clinker. I have yet to see anyone in a golf tournament on TV play better because they play slowly, or play worse because they have to speed up. Correct me if you have. Whatever happened to "miss 'em quick"?

Morgan played well enough to win the hole. Kevin Na didn't play better when he tried to speed up on Sunday. 39s seconds sounds bad. On the other hand she would have been 10 seconds under the PGA  limit (more with the grace period). Is the LPGA limit too low or is the PGA too high? Again Morgan didn't agonize over the shots. She was deliberate and methodical with some difficult shots

Originally Posted by Motley01

I agree with the penalties that they issued.

See when people watch this slow play, they then go to their local golf course and try to imitate the same things. That's why we have people out there plumb-bobing there putts, for there 10th shot. It's rediculous,

If your hitting 10 shots it doesn't matter if you hit them all in 30s. You are still going to be slow.  Wasted time costs more than preshot routines in my experience. It might be more annoying to watch the guy take 5 practice swings but more time is lost by things like leaving your wedge on the wrong side of the hole, searching for that ball 20yards in the wood, measuring to the nearest yard when your club is +-20 yards, writing scores down on the green, and just being slow getting to your ball. The last one is the killer in my experience.Your experience might differ.

[boogielicious]

I agree with the ruling as unfortunate as it was for Morgan.  I did not watch the round in question, but it sounds like Munoz was more at fault for the earlier warnings.  That being said, I did watch the final round.  There was one hole, the final par 3, that Munoz and her playing partner were unbelievably slow.  I don't understand how they did not get warned or penalized on that hole.  It took them over 20 minutes to play the hole.  I think the rules officials were more lenient in the final than they were in the semis.

That is what is unfortunate, not being consistent.  This is what infuriates sports fans with any rulings or officiating, lack of consistency.

[colin007]

ill tell you what, you go ahead and get a slow play warning, TWICE!!!, and then continue to play at the same pace.  does that even make sense?  if i got warned, you can bet your ass im going to pick up the pace.

[zeg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

There is a rule, and there is a "right" way and a "wrong" way to apply the rule, and a right time and wrong time to actually apply such a rule.

This rule says you have, on every stroke, 30 seconds on average to make that stroke from the time it becomes your turn to play. (The rule, I believe, is bullet 6 here: http://lifeontour.wordpress.com/blog/pace-of-play/) The only discretion afforded is the determination of when there is no longer interference with the player's stroke. Thus, you get to be at your ball and the group ahead can clear, and if there is interference from spectators, etc, they can cut you a break. Specifically, "Time taken for determining yardage, club selection, wind conditions, etc. will count against the player’s overall time."

I don't see any room in there to ignore the rule for other situations.

Quote:

When was the rule last applied?

This is not stroke play ... this is match play. If they had not applied the rule in a long time or sporadically, they picked the wrong time to apply the rule.

They sucked in the application of the rule.

But if they wanted to bring attention to their Tour, they succeeded.

The point in the second part of my quote is rhetorical - are those applauding the application of the rule at this time accountable to rules? i.e. do they let themselves off scott-free, or do they admit or take responsibility in their life? Or do they use excuses to skirt the rules, their wives, their friends, their poor golf play?

Some of these points have been covered in other posts above. Penalties for pace of play are apparently not as rare as you think, and there's no way to "pick the wrong time to apply the rule," because it specifically lays out when it is to be enacted. The only way not to enforce the rule is to break it.

Your rhetorical point is offensive and absurd.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by zeg

This rule says you have, on every stroke, 30 seconds on average to make that stroke from the time it becomes your turn to play. (The rule, I believe, is bullet 6 here: http://lifeontour.wordpress.com/blog/pace-of-play/) The only discretion afforded is the determination of when there is no longer interference with the player's stroke. Thus, you get to be at your ball and the group ahead can clear, and if there is interference from spectators, etc, they can cut you a break. Specifically, "Time taken for determining yardage, club selection, wind conditions, etc. will count against the player’s overall time."

I don't see any room in there to ignore the rule for other situations.

Some of these points have been covered in other posts above. Penalties for pace of play are apparently not as rare as you think, and there's no way to "pick the wrong time to apply the rule," because it specifically lays out when it is to be enacted. The only way not to enforce the rule is to break it.

Your rhetorical point is offensive and absurd.

My rhetorical point is neither offensive or absurd - but it may be to those who take things personally or have no inclination to observe their actions. I think we all must remind ourselves to be accountable and not offer excuses - it is being aware. We are not perfect beings, but we are better beings when we are aware.

Enough of my zen for the day.

Apparently, the rule as to the penalty is not applied consistently or it would not have caused such a stir. Why it was applied at this time and to this player is the real story, and probably a story that will not be told.