"U touched the sand" "Did not". What to do?

[joekelly]

Played in a tourney a while back. While watching fellow player in the sand bunker i thought his club touched, rested, so slightly on the surface. As he began his swing i saw the sand behind the ball had a small smooth place, indicating a high probability that the club did touch the sand.

Do i have some obligation to say something to this player? Should i tell him during his swing? After the shot?  The 'fact', whether touched the sand or not,  seems un-proveable after the swing is complete.  Seems to me that this,  rest the club on the sand,  is his habit and, frankly, seemed to make no difference in the play, as we all were poor bunker players. A tiny touch on the sand? Is this wrong and how to address this 'problem' or perception, since maybe i was wrong. That day made no difference to me what he did. But in his future someday at a bigger venue, he may continue his habit and pay a high price. So in kindness maybe i should tell him soon.

[bplewis24]

I watched The Players a few weeks ago and came to understand that if, while in a defined hazard (17th green has a hazard line) and the club barely grazes blades of grass, this is not a penalty.  The club has to be soled into the grass, which I assume means that it comes to rest for some period of time.  Does the same apply in the bunker?  I guess that may have some impact on the answer to your question.

At any rate, I would probably try and handle it by addressing it the first time I see it happen and if at all possible, before they start their backswing, unless doing so would require me to have to approach them with urgency to interrupt their shot.  After the swing I might say something like, "it looked like your club was resting on the sand there.  Did you notice?"  If they responded yes, I'd obviously say that was against the rules, and if they responded no, I'd mention that I was just making sure.  If it happened again, the person should be aware of it to the point that you can call them on it.

Brandon

[luu5]

Originally Posted by joekelly

Played in a tourney a while back. While watching fellow player in the sand bunker i thought his club touched, rested, so slightly on the surface. As he began his swing i saw the sand behind the ball had a small smooth place, indicating a high probability that the club did touch the sand.

You should have told the person and his marker (this was tournament right?). If you were his marker, you can/should refuse to sign the card. You are not the judge but just a witness and you should present your testimony to the committee/rules official before returning the cards.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

I watched The Players a few weeks ago and came to understand that if, while in a defined hazard (17th green has a hazard line) and the club barely grazes blades of grass, this is not a penalty.  The club has to be soled into the grass, which I assume means that it comes to rest for some period of time.  Does the same apply in the bunker?  I guess that may have some impact on the answer to your question.

You can touch the growing grass in WH but not the ground itself.

Basic rule 13-4

player must not:

a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;

b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or

c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

there are of course some exceptions, but those would not apply in these cases.

[meenman]

I had a similar issue last year in our member/guest tourney. I kind of let it go since we took 8 out of the 10 points in that round.

I did go in and ask the GM what the ruling would be (realizing nothing could change because I didnt report it before completion of the hole.) I was told that the player makes the final call on whether or not they should be penalized - so basically nothing we could do either way. Not like the average Country Club is going to have rules officials on every hole.

[iacas]

If you're not going to call him on it (I would if I was certain he'd violated the rules - I might stand closer to him the next time, or even use my range finder to magnify the area his club is sitting), then you should tell him after the round is over, because he may be unaware that he's doing it and it may cost him at some point in the future when someone DOES call him on it.

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by meenman

... I was told that the player makes the final call on whether or not they should be penalized ...

Is this true in most competitions? Player must make the call and not the marker or fellow competitor?

I recall a story from my high school days about a guy being called for teeing in front of the markers on the first hole (freshman and no one watching). Tee flies so there is not "proof" and argument starts. Player says he was behind the markers. Competitor says he was in front. Coaches called over and the call went to the competitor -- not the player. What happened after made this a famous story (not part of this thread). This was many years ago. Perhaps this rule is different or times have changed.

[Stretch]

What happened after? You can't leave us hanging like that!

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by Stretch

What happened after? You can't leave us hanging like that!

This was the first golf meat of the season. Player from my high school was a big guy. Competitor was a very little guy. Coaches say little guy can call it on his opponent or let it go since there is no proof. Big guy says, "If you make me re-hit that shot, I'll kill you on the ninth green." Little guy makes him re-hit and big guy bangs it OB. Throughout the rest of the match, the big guy glares at the little kid and says, "Ninth green."  On the ninth green, big guy putts out to win the match, calmly drops his putter, walks over to the little guy and beats the tar out of him. Coaches come running and big guy is kicked off golf team and suspended from school for two weeks. Week three he returns and joins the football team where his aggressive behavior is channeled into a slightly more socially acceptable manner for the next four years.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by iacas

If you're not going to call him on it (I would if I was certain he'd violated the rules - I might stand closer to him the next time, or even use my range finder to magnify the area his club is sitting), then you should tell him after the round is over, because he may be unaware that he's doing it and it may cost him at some point in the future when someone DOES call him on it.

This is good advice.  A couple years ago when I entered my first competitive tourney, I did a couple things that would have been rules violations and my competitor alerted me to it but I wasn't penalized for it.  I probably should have been, but I wasn't in the running for anything and it wasn't a sanctioned event, simply a club event.

Anyhow, once, my ball was in the line of a competitor's putt.  So I asked which way to move it, and then moved the ball, and marked it.  Afterwards, he quietly and politely told me to make sure to mark the ball first, then move the mark.

I think in the same round, I was about 130 yards out and my partner was about 180 yards out after a poor drive.  He stuck it to within 6 feet and I said, "wow great shot...what was that, a hybrid?"  He uncomfortably responded that it was a 5-iron.  Then a few minutes later, quietly and politely told me not to ask another person what club they are using, as it can be construed as getting yardage advice.

I never forgot those moments, and haven't repeated those things since.  But if they never said anything, there's a chance I would be doing it to this day.

Brandon

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

This was the first golf meat of the season. Player from my high school was a big guy. Competitor was a very little guy. Coaches say little guy can call it on his opponent or let it go since there is no proof. Big guy says, "If you make me re-hit that shot, I'll kill you on the ninth green." Little guy makes him re-hit and big guy bangs it OB. Throughout the rest of the match, the big guy glares at the little kid and says, "Ninth green."  On the ninth green, big guy putts out to win the match, calmly drops his putter, walks over to the little guy and beats the tar out of him. Coaches come running and big guy is kicked off golf team and suspended from school for two weeks. Week three he returns and joins the football team where his aggressive behavior is channeled into a slightly more socially acceptable manner for the next four years.

Kind if ridiculous that once he made the threat his own coach did not immediately disqualify him and throw him off the team right then and there.  Threatening your opponent with physical harm seems to violate the spirit of the game.

[Stretch]

Was not disappointed. A++ story. Would regale again!

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Anyhow, once, my ball was in the line of a competitor's putt.  So I asked which way to move it, and then moved the ball, and marked it.  Afterwards, he quietly and politely told me to make sure to mark the ball first, then move the mark.

Brandon

This is one of those things that is often misunderstood.  Although it's true that you must first mark your ball when you lift it while on the putting green, how you move your ball out of the way can be a little different.  You are allowed to say put your putter head down and move the ball to the opposite side of the putter head first and then mark your ball.  You just need to make sure you exactly reverse the process in moving your ball back. There is no requirement to mark the ball first, although it's a good idea because of what can happen if you don't exactly reverse the process.

Where people get into trouble by not marking he ball first is if they put there putter down next to the ball and put the ball marker on the other end of the putter instead of the ball.  When they move the ball back, they move the mark back over using the putter head, when they should have put the ball back.  If you don't, you've actually replaced the ball a little closer to the hole.  I see this all the time.

[Dormie1360]

Just a couple of points on the rules.

You can not "ground" (or touch the ground) with your club in a hazard (water or bunker).  Grounding means letting the club rest on the ground or grass by it's own weight.  You can not touch loose impediments in a hazard (lightly or otherwise) unless it's done by the forward movement of the club in making a stroke. Loose impediments are natural things fixed, or growing .  That's why there is not penalty for lightly touching grass in a  hazard with your club, it's growing out of the ground therefore not a loose impediment.

Now it gets ugly.  There are exceptions.

While searching for a ball you can touch loose impediments, but it's broken down into parts of the course.

Sand anywhere on the course:  You can move sand with your club to find your ball.  If the ball moves, it must be replaced.  No penalty.

In a hazard, (this includes bunkers): You can move loose impediments (like leaves)  to find or identify your ball, but if you move the ball while touching or moving the loose impediments there is a penalty.  The ball must be replaced.  However, if the ball moves in the replacement of the loose impediments there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.

In water in a water hazard :  You may probe with your club to find your ball, no penalty if it moves.  If the ball is not lying in water, or accidentally moved other than in probing, there is a penalty however.

These rules were changed and rewritten this year..........not sure that they are easier to understand.

So in a bunker as the original OP was talking about, you can not touch the sand with you club until you are making the stroke.  (Forward movement of the club with the intention of striking the ball).  If there was a loose impediment in the bunker, leaves for example, same thing, penalty for touching unless it's the forward movement of the club, or you were searching or identifying your ball.

As far as what to do if you think you saw an infraction............  I'd asked the player, if he says no and you are not sure, then that's the end of it.  The committee will side with the player.  If the player says no and you are sure he's wrong, don't sign the card and tell the committee and let them decide what to do.

Should you look the other way?  In match play, if he's ignorant of the rule, or doesn't believe he did it......it's your call.  You can overlook the infraction, you are not required to call him on it as long as there is no agreement to knowingly break rules.

Stroke play is different.  You are suppose to protect the field.  You shouldn't look the other way.  Technically, you could be DQ'd for attesting an incorrect scorecard.

Having said that, if the guy is shooting a zillion, it's a club tournament where it really doesn't matter with regards to the outcome of the tournament......I could see not saying anything, taking the player off to the side after the tournament, and explaining the rule.  But, that's me, not the rules.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Where people get into trouble by not marking he ball first is if they put there putter down next to the ball and put the ball marker on the other end of the putter instead of the ball.  When they move the ball back, they move the mark back over using the putter head, when they should have put the ball back.  If you don't, you've actually replaced the ball a little closer to the hole.  I see this all the time.

Hard to remember, but I believe this is what I did.

Brandon

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Just a couple of points on the rules.

You can not "ground" (or touch the ground) with your club in a hazard (water or bunker).  Grounding means letting the club rest on the ground or grass by it's own weight.  You can not touch loose impediments in a hazard  (lightly or otherwise)  unless it's done by the forward movement of the club in making a stroke.  Loose impediments are natural things fixed, or growing.  That's why there is not penalty for lightly touching grass in a  hazard with your club, it's growing out of the ground therefore not a loose impediment.

May be you should rephrase this little bit as it seems to contradict itself.

[bplewis24]

Glad I'm not the only one who read it as a contradiction.  I actually had to read it a few times to make sure.

Brandon

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Just a couple of points on the rules.

You can not "ground" (or touch the ground) with your club in a hazard (water or bunker).  Grounding means letting the club rest on the ground or grass by it's own weight.  You can not touch loose impediments in a hazard  (lightly or otherwise)  unless it's done by the forward movement of the club in making a stroke.  Loose impediments are natural things NOT fixed, or growing.  That's why there is not penalty for lightly touching grass in a  hazard with your club, it's growing out of the ground therefore not a loose impediment.

Originally Posted by luu5

May be you should rephrase this little bit as it seems to contradict itself.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Glad I'm not the only one who read it as a contradiction.  I actually had to read it a few times to make sure.

Brandon

Thanks for that.......left out a little word. I need to be more careful.

[bplewis24]

Makes sense now