Casey Martin: Cart or Not?

[Phil McGleno]

At least I give an opinion. You just ask me if I'm testy. [quote name="Mr3Wiggle" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/144#post_723624"]A little testy today aren't we Phil? [/quote] The purpose of the U.S. Open is to test someone's ability to navigate 72 holes in the fewest strokes and that includes walking just as it includes everything else. If golf was just a game of swinging the club and making good contact with the ball we could just hold a tournament inside of a science lab and declare the winner by who makes the best swings, since that is all you seem to think golf is. Golf is about the mental side, the physical side, how you deal with the elements, and whether or not you are dragging ass on the back nine on Sunday or whether you prepared and have the endurance mental and physical to keep on going. It's sad the Supreme Court did not listen to the actual golfers who testified. They stuck their noses in when they really had no right. The fairways of a PGA Tour stop are not a public place That's why they have ropes up. [quote name="zipazoid" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/144#post_723626"] I don't think it's a matter of not giving credit to the endurance of walking. It's more a matter of what is the purpose of the competitive game, and people here are giving their opinion on that, whether they are 'cart hackers' or not. (Some of us aren't). I suppose we could have filtered the responses to ask only the very few who have played tour events, but we didn't. The Supreme Court is not made up of tour pros either yet they weighed in on the issue & had the final say.[/quote] It is "integral to the game" at the highest levels. You chops couldnt hang with a PGA Tour pro playing wrong-handed clubs. http://thesandtrap.com/t/37766/how-exhausted-are-you-after-18-holes http://thesandtrap.com/t/44931/walking-riding-and-your-handicap Lots of other threads where people talk about getting tired after they walk 18 holes or how they try to deal with being tired at the end of a round Add in the stress of playing PGA Tour level golf and fatigue is very real. You chops (me included and I'm still a +3 beyond half a century of age) dont have a clue. I dont even think you guys could caddie for a pro for a full tournament without being exhausted at the end. [quote name="Mr3Wiggle" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/144#post_723635"]So what do we call the game if we're playing it while riding in a cart?  Since according to Chamblee, Nobilo, and a number of golf purists walking is an integral part of the game.  And if so should courses be rated/sloped for people who ride, since according to the experts it's an advantage to ride in a cart? [/quote] If you dont think theres an advantage to riding over walking then your opinion isnot worth listening to. Makes no sense whatsoever. Whats harder running a mile or biking a mile? Walking it or riding in a car GImme a break. [quote name="RollTide" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/162#post_723722"] It applies to anyone who thinks it's a competitive advantage to ride. Although most agree there is no advantage to riding over walking.[/quote] Who cares? His leg is shot at the start of the day. It's nature. Why are we propping him up artificially so he can compete? So he has a disadvantage. Corey Pavin wasn't allowed to tee off from 20 yards ahead of everyone because he was at a disadvantage. It is irreleavant if a round with a cart challenges him. It challenges lots of people to varying amounts and we don't try to level that all out. Completely missing the point if you think it is about evening out fatigue levels [quote name="zipazoid" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/162#post_723750"] And as it regards the 'fatigue factor' of walking, how do we know that Casey's leg isn't totally shot by the end of a day of 18 holes, even with a cart? Everyone sees how he limps around. It wouldn't surprise me at the end of a round with a cart he still has to rest that leg, raise it or whatever....while a healthy player walks out to his courtesy car & tools on back to his hotel. There's no way to accurately measure this, but I would bet, given his congenital birth defect, that any round - cart or not - has to be a real challenge for him. So yes. I will concede Jack & Arnie & everyone else's point that walking is integral to the game from the standpoint of fatigue (I know that differs from what I posted earlier...I'm evolving hehe), but if they are going to use that as the basis of their argument - fatigue - then one has to assume a player walking on only one good leg gets more fatigued than someone with two good legs. For the sake of attempting to quantify - you can assume that Martin is twice as fatigued since one is half of two. It's likely a higher ratio than that, but as I said earlier, there's no way to accurately measure. So their point is valid when comparing apples to apples - two healthy, ambulatory players, one with a cart the other walking, the cart rider has an advantage. But this isn't apples to apples. It's two good legs versus one. Martin isn't getting an advantage, he's getting a chance that otherwise would not exist if not for the cart. I do not beleive for one moment that Casey Martin specifically is getting an advantage over the field by riding a cart. [/quote] You can keep saying it but it sounds dumber every time. A cart is an advantage for this fella. It helps him and no other player is allowed the same help. [quote name="RollTide" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/162#post_723762"]I'll say it again...riding in a golf cart has no competitive advantage over walking. Walking is a "tradition" and if someone is able to do so, it's good for the sport to have them do so. You know what else is good for the sport? Making arrangements (that offer no competitive advantage) to allow a great golfer to compete. They're not cutting a bigger hole for him, they're not giving him a remote controlled ball, they're simply allowing him approach his ball in a slightly different manner than everyone else. [/quote]

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

At least I give an opinion. You just ask me if I'm testy.

Um no Phil.  I pretty clearly gave my opinion earlier in the thread.  You should read it.  The testy comment is because you are a rude person, at least on here.  I'm sure in real life you'd be much less opinionated.

[zipazoid]

Lots of other threads where people talk about getting tired after they walk 18 holes or how they try to deal with being tired at the end of a round Add in the stress of playing PGA Tour level golf and fatigue is very real. You chops (me included and I'm still a +3 beyond half a century of age) dont have a clue. I dont even think you guys could caddie for a pro for a full tournament without being exhausted at the end.

Who cares? His leg is shot at the start of the day. It's nature. Why are we propping him up artificially so he can compete? So he has a disadvantage. Corey Pavin wasn't allowed to tee off from 20 yards ahead of everyone because he was at a disadvantage. It is irreleavant if a round with a cart challenges him. It challenges lots of people to varying amounts and we don't try to level that all out. Completely missing the point if you think it is about evening out fatigue levels

So which is it, Phil? You're making the point that walking 18 is fatiguing, but then you say I'm missing the point about evening out the fatigue levels. If it's not about evening it out then what it is? That Martin is flat SOL?

The Corey Pavin analogy is ridiculous, btw. If Martin cannot score (and of Pavin couldn't score) he wouldn't be in the Open. Again, you're trying to equivilantize Martin's birth defect to someone being slight of build.

[Mr3Wiggle]

I'm still waiting for someone to advise me how many shots I need to add to my score when I ride instead of walk.  Since there is this clear advantage to riding, I'm obviously shooting lower that I should be and need to make an adjustment.

[Wally Fairway]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I do and so do the pro's I listed above who's opinions I value much higher than yours or mine who have never played on the PGA Tour.  When I walk 18 in 90*+ temps I'm more fatigued at the end of a round than when I ride in a cart, and I'm a long distance runner so it's not that I'm not in shape.

I will agree that there is more fatigue when playing in  90+ temperature; I will add that in my experience that I play better walking when it is cooler out - I stay looser, I focus better when I walk (hell I loose fewer balls as I walk line of flight...not that it matter in the Open). So I think that there is also a downside to riding.

And according to the weather forecasts that I've been looking at the 90+ debate doesn't really matter for the Open, as they are looking at low 70's for the tourney (probably in the low 60's for early tee-times)

[Phil McGleno]

Youre wrong again! Just as opinionated in real life. Just as right too. :) [quote name="Mr3Wiggle" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/180#post_723866"]Um no Phil.  I pretty clearly gave my opinion earlier in the thread.  You should read it.  The testy comment is because you are a rude person, at least on here.  I'm sure in real life you'd be much less opinionated. [/quote] Hey understand what you read. I said the same thing. You are missing the point if you think tournaments should be in the business of evening out levels of fatigue. I said the same thing in both comments and you think I contradicted myself That is funny. Pavin was born small. Should we not give him an advantage too to level things out? No. Sports should not be in the business of trying to level the playing field between competitors. They should not give one player an advantage that other players are not given. Your entire opinion is ridiculous because you think that sports should care about trying to give some one an artificial edge because they are naturally unable to compete. They should be just that - unable to compete. Or should the NBA have given Spud Webb a shorter basket so he could dunk too? He was born small - that's a defect if you want to play in the NBA. [quote name="zipazoid" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/180#post_723874"] So which is it, Phil? You're making the point that walking 18 is fatiguing, but then you say I'm missing the point about evening out the fatigue levels. If it's not about evening it out then what it is? That Martin is flat SOL? The Corey Pavin analogy is ridiculous, btw. If Martin cannot score (and of Pavin couldn't score) he wouldn't be in the Open. Again, you're trying to equivilantize Martin's birth defect to someone being slight of build.[/quote] "Ridiculous" line of talk. What amount is enough for you to say that clearly he gets an advantage? 1 shot per round? 0.01 shots per round? It is clearly an advantage to be able to ride a cart instead of walk. Quantify it how you want but on the PGA Tour and in majors a fraction of a shot over four days can make a difference. Martin gets the advantage of not having to walk while everyone else in the field is at a relative disadvantage. Condition of the competition. If you ever break 100 and enter a serious tournament where they make you walk good luck you will find out that you are more tired at the end than if you got to ride a cart the whole time. [quote name="Mr3Wiggle" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/180#post_723880"]I'm still waiting for someone to advise me how many shots I need to add to my score when I ride instead of walk.  Since there is this clear advantage to walking, I'm obviously shooting lower that I should be and need to make an adjustment. [/quote]

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Wally Fairway

I will agree that there is more fatigue when playing in  90+ temperature; I will add that in my experience that I play better walking when it is cooler out - I stay looser, I focus better when I walk (hell I loose fewer balls as I walk line of flight...not that it matter in the Open). So I think that there is also a downside to riding.

And according to the weather forecasts that I've been looking at the 90+ debate doesn't really matter for the Open, as they are looking at low 70's for the tourney (probably in the low 60's for early tee-times)

This is why I always prefer to walk, unless of course its a big group tourney where I know I (and everyone else) will be drinking lots of "sodas", not losing track of where my ball landed saves many strokes. I've lost balls in the middle of the effin' fairway because of the endless journey my "chauffeur" takes me on before we can finally go to where my ball is...hmmm...where was that again?

[TourSpoon]

After reading the 25 page summary of the case there where several pros that where willing to speak on Martin's behalf. But that really isn't the issue here as it doesn't matter as the Tour had 3 opportunities to prove their case against Martin and lost each time. This boils down to an interpretation of the ADA. Before its implementation in 1987, Sr. Tour member Charley Owens asked the Tour for a cart for the Sr. Open and was denied because carts were not allowed in Sr Majors, only in Sr regular events. Owens, walked the first 9 on crutches and withdrew. He had a fused knee and other injuries from a parachuting accident back from his Military days at Fort Bragg. This case would probably had the same outcome if the ADA had been in place, but Owens had nothing in the law to support him so he just withdrew, exhausted. Owens was also credited with popularizing the belly putter, but that is a whole different thread. The court's ruling did preserve the Tour's policy as it carefully ruled on Casey Martin and not on all disabled golfers as a whole. I can see where if they ruled broader how this could get really messy with Verplank's diabetes, Jose-Maria's feet, Compton's heart, etc. What this case did do was raise the awareness that golf is a game for everyone, including the disabled, and gave one guy a chance at a dream. I see both sides and I see why the Tour lost, and I don't take issue with Martin for challenging it. Ironically enough, Jose-Maria was paired with Martin during an event when his story came up as he had denied the use of a cart on the European Tour during his almost 2 year medical ordeal. I don't think any pro was against Martin as I don't think any of you are, they were trying to protect the Tour as we know it. At the end of the day I feel that I am highly unqualified to comment on this issue because I have never played an official Tour event and I have never tried a case in front of the Supreme Court, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express so that makes up for it.

[the19thhole]

Man that was some read - I can honestly say I'd never heard of this guy before (I'm not American). I voted no because like others I do believe he is being given an advantage not afforded to the other competitors. Sounds harsh given his disabilty, but that's the reality of the matter. Before I go on I would like to say I do  hope he plays well.

I know this is a big "what if", but let's say Casey plays above expectations and is in contention come Sunday with let me think, ok Jason Dufner will do (sorry Jason I couldn't think of another golfer who looks unfit) and the weather has been 95 degress and 90% humidity for all 4 days. We are into the back 9 and Jason says he can't go on as he thinks his heart is going give out if he has to walk any further. Would he be allowed to use a cart - answer no, he would be told to suck it and see.

[the19thhole]

Maybe I'm wrong in what I'm about to say,but did the SC rule the way it did because it didn't see walking as integral to the game or because it ruled it was dicrimination against a registered disabled person. Maybe even both.

Another what if a current top golfer blows his knee so bad he can't walk 18 holes anymore. So bad in fact he is now registered disabled. Should he be allowed to use a cart, after all walking according to most people here is not integral to the game. No we would say retire from golf because of injury. Surely the SC ruling would support him, so in fact a precdent was set.

[Phil McGleno]

I just think golf is not "a game for everyone" at the PGA Tour level. I think the Supreme Court judges overstepped Inside the ropes is not a public place. [quote name="TourSpoon" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/180#post_723928"]The court's ruling did preserve the Tour's policy as it carefully ruled on Casey Martin and not on all disabled golfers as a whole. I can see where if they ruled broader how this could get really messy with Verplank's diabetes, Jose-Maria's feet, Compton's heart, etc. What this case did do was raise the awareness that golf is a game for everyone, including the disabled, and gave one guy a chance at a dream. I see both sides and I see why the Tour lost, and I don't take issue with Martin for challenging it. Ironically enough, Jose-Maria was paired with Martin during an event when his story came up as he had denied the use of a cart on the European Tour during his almost 2 year medical ordeal. I don't think any pro was against Martin as I don't think any of you are, they were trying to protect the Tour as we know it.[/quote] I hope he plays well too. Whats done is done. Still fun to discuss. [quote name="the19thhole" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/180#post_723935"]Man that was some read - I can honestly say I'd never heard of this guy before (I'm not American). I voted no because like others I do believe he is being given an advantage not afforded to the other competitors. Sounds harsh given his disabilty, but that's the reality of the matter. Before I go on I would like to say I do  hope he plays well. [/quote] Both I think.They applied the ADA because they ruled walking was not integral to golf Despite expert testimony saying opposite. [quote name="the19thhole" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/180#post_723945"]Maybe I'm wrong in what I'm about to say,but did the SC rule the way it did because it didn't see walking as integral to the game or because it ruled it was dicrimination against a registered disabled person. Maybe even both. Another what if a current top golfer blows his knee so bad he can't walk 18 holes anymore. So bad in fact he is now registered disabled. Should he be allowed to use a cart, after all walking according to most people here is not integral to the game. No we would say retire from golf because of injury. Surely the SC ruling would support him, so in fact a precdent was set. [/quote] Yep he could get a handicap sticker and park in the handicap slots in the parking lot too.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

I just think golf is not "a game for everyone" at the PGA Tour level. I think the Supreme Court judges overstepped Inside the ropes is not a public place.

I hope he plays well too. Whats done is done. Still fun to discuss.

Agree to both. I think they definitely dropped the ball on this one but no reason to cry over spilt milk so to speak. I wish him well, but I doubt he'll win, even with the cart it sounds like fatigue will play a major role in how he fares.

[jetsknicks1]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

Youre wrong again! Just as opinionated in real life. Just as right too. :)

Hey understand what you read. I said the same thing. You are missing the point if you think tournaments should be in the business of evening out levels of fatigue. I said the same thing in both comments and you think I contradicted myself That is funny.

Pavin was born small. Should we not give him an advantage too to level things out? No. Sports should not be in the business of trying to level the playing field between competitors. They should not give one player an advantage that other players are not given.

Your entire opinion is ridiculous because you think that sports should care about trying to give some one an artificial edge because they are naturally unable to compete. They should be just that - unable to compete. Or should the NBA have given Spud Webb a shorter basket so he could dunk too? He was born small - that's a defect if you want to play in the NBA.

"Ridiculous" line of talk. What amount is enough for you to say that clearly he gets an advantage? 1 shot per round? 0.01 shots per round? It is clearly an advantage to be able to ride a cart instead of walk. Quantify it how you want but on the PGA Tour and in majors a fraction of a shot over four days can make a difference. Martin gets the advantage of not having to walk while everyone else in the field is at a relative disadvantage.

Condition of the competition. If you ever break 100 and enter a serious tournament where they make you walk good luck you will find out that you are more tired at the end than if you got to ride a cart the whole time.

So height, or lack thereof is a disiblity or a birth defect? That's just silly You just seem so desperate to try and make your point, that you'll throw anything out there and hope it sticks.

[TourSpoon]

I just think golf is not "a game for everyone" at the PGA Tour level. I think the Supreme Court judges overstepped Inside the ropes is not a public place.

I totally agree with the Tour not being a game for everyone. It is rarified air there for sure, but this case has most likely encouraged people with disabilities to take up golf, especially some of our veterans. I was surprised the SC even took arguements on this case, but there was a lot of pressure from a few Senators to do so at the time, including the author of the ADA. I doubt the SC will ever get involved on this level again in my lifetime.

[sacm3bill]

I highly recommend reading both sides of the SC's ruling, which can be found here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-24.ZS.html.

In general I found the dissenting arguments by Justice Scalia to be much more compelling than those of the majority who ruled in favor of Martin. One example of the latter's flawed logic:

Originally Posted by Justice Stevens

The factual basis of petitioner’s argument is undermined by the District Court’s finding that the fatigue from walking during one of petitioner’s 4-day tournaments cannot be deemed significant. The District Court credited the testimony of a professor in physiology and expert on fatigue, who calculated the calories expended in walking a golf course (about five miles) to be approximately 500 calories–“nutritionally … less than a Big Mac.” 994 F. Supp., at 1250. What is more, that energy is expended over a 5-hour period, during which golfers have numerous intervals for rest and refreshment. In fact, the expert concluded, because golf is a low intensity activity, fatigue from the game is primarily a psychological phenomenon in which stress and motivation are the key ingredients..

I.e., even though Palmer, Nicklaus, and Venturi testified to the fatigue factor in the SC case, the SC judges based their decision on the findings of a physiologist who testified in the District Court case, who for all we know may have never walked 18 holes 4 days in a row in his life.  Further, most recent studies have shown the caloric expenditure to be closer to double the 500 number stated above. Not to mention, the "five miles" is clearly on the low side - in their ignorance of the game they probably just added up the hole yardages.  The general lack of understanding by these old guys in robes about how much a round of golf can fatigue a walking golfer is simply astonishing.

I think one mistake the PGA Tour lawyers made was in hinging their case (at least partially) on whether walking was an integral part of the game in the first place. As Justice Scalia states (bold mine):

Originally Posted by Justice Scalia

It is hardly a feasible judicial function to decide whether shoe stores should sell single shoes to one-legged persons and if so at what price... It is as irrelevant to the PGA TOUR’s compliance with the statute whether walking is essential to the game of golf as it is to the shoe store’s compliance whether “pairness” is essential to the nature of shoes. If a shoe store wishes to sell shoes only in pairs it may; and if a golf tour (or a golf course) wishes to provide only walk-around golf, it may. The PGA TOUR cannot deny respondent access to that game because of his disability, but it need not provide him a game different (whether in its essentials or in its details) from that offered to everyone else.

Other notable excerpts from the dissent:

Originally Posted by Justice Scalia

Having concluded that dispensing with the walking rule would not violate federal-Platonic “golf” (and, implicitly, that it is federal-Platonic golf, and no other, that the PGA TOUR can insist upon) the Court moves on to the second part of its test: the competitive effects of waiving this nonessential rule. In this part of its analysis, the Court first finds that the effects of the change are “mitigated” by the fact that in the game of golf weather, a “lucky bounce,” and “pure chance” provide different conditions for each competitor and individual ability may not “be the sole determinant of the outcome.” Ante, at 25. I guess that is why those who follow professional golfing consider Jack Nicklaus the luckiest golfer of all time, only to be challenged of late by the phenomenal luck of Tiger Woods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice Scalia

[Regarding the attempt to quantify how fatigued Martin is in relation to other golfers:] One can envision the parents of a Little League player with attention deficit disorder trying to convince a judge that their son’s disability makes it at least 25% more difficult to hit a pitched ball. (If they are successful, the only thing that could prevent a court order giving the kid four strikes would be a judicial determination that, in baseball, three strikes are metaphysically necessary, which is quite absurd.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice Scalia

The statute seeks to assure that a disabled person’s disability will not deny him equal access to (among other things) competitive sporting events – not that his disability will not deny him an equal chance to win competitive sporting events.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice Scalia

Complaints about this case are not “properly directed to Congress” [as was stated in the assenting judges opinion]. They are properly directed to this Court’s Kafkaesque determination that professional sports organizations, and the fields they rent for their exhibitions, are “places of public accommodation” to the competing athletes, and the athletes themselves “customers” of the organization that pays them; its Alice in Wonderland determination that there are such things as judicially determinable “essential” and “nonessential” rules of a made-up game; and its Animal Farm determination that fairness and the ADA mean that everyone gets to play by individualized rules which will assure that no one’s lack of ability (or at least no one’s lack of ability so pronounced that it amounts to a disability) will be a handicap.

Based on what I've read in the SC ruling and on this thread, I think the SC made a mistake. I admire Casey Martin for the obstacles he's had to overcome, but making an exception for him just doesn't make logical sense to me.

Btw, one interesting note: The poll right now exactly represents, to the percent (77 for Casey, 22 against), how the Supreme Court judges were divided as well.

[VoidOfEnigmas]

He's been handicapped from birth, too disqualify him from tournaments just because of that feels.........wrong

[Ernest Jones]

I'm guessing that Scalia is a golfer.

[TourSpoon]

I'm guessing that Scalia is a golfer.

I am not sure but Justice O'Connor introduced golf to the new President of the USGA. She was an avid golfer. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/golf/incoming-usga-president-took-up-sport-at-urging-of-sandra-day-oconnor/2012/02/02/gIQAZcwokQ_story.html