Casey Martin: Cart or Not?

[x129]

It is disputable if riding is an advantage. Read any of the threads about walking versus riding (or whines about riding only courses) and most of the walkers claim to play better when walking. Now they could be full of it but they might also have a point. Walking helps with your rythmn, getting a feel for the course, and staying loose. And don't confuse carrying with walking. There is about a 20% energy difference (about the same as the difference between carting and walking) in the studies I have seen. I am guessing the numbers differ quite a bit depending on course and weather conditions.

Even if there was no advantage, we would still have this discussion. It would be all about tradition and the like.

Originally Posted by David in FL

Certainly you don't dispute that there is an advantage, quantifiable or not, to riding, do you?

Let's face it, if riding didn't provide him a benefit over walking, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by xmanhockey7

...He's playing the exact same golf course he just can't walk in between shots. Yeah it might be a bit of help to not have to walk if it's hot or hilly...

Just got back from watching the practice rounds and walking the course. It's very hilly.

Originally Posted by x129

It is disputable if riding is an advantage. Read any of the threads about walking versus riding (or whines about riding only courses) and most of the walkers claim to play better when walking...

Ask those walkers whether they play better walking after they've done so four days in a row. It's really not disputable that a cart would be an advantage in that case - at least that's what Palmer, Nicklaus, and Venturi all testified to under oath to the Supreme Court. They should know, wouldn't you think?

[x129]

No they have opinions which are informed.  But they are human and can be wrong (see Faldo and the ball flight laws).  Are there cases where the cart is a big plus? Probably. When Venturi played 36 holes in 100 degree heat would be a prime example might have been a difference maker. But if your an idiot and don't drink water (in his defense it was the 60s. Nutritional science back then was horrid) that probably played a bigger role. Are you tired after 4 days of tour golf? Sure. But how much of that is due to walking versus the pressure they are under? I am guessing the second is greater than the first in most cases. But that is just a guess.

The only study I have ever seen is http://onpar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/a-little-scientific-research-for-all-those-19th-hole-debates/ . It has a lot of flaws (i.e. it is amateurs not pros. They did it in Denver, sample size, 9 holes versus 18) suggests that walking versus riding makes no difference. I have worn a heart rate monitor on the course (pretty hilly one on an 75 degree day). I never came close to my anaerobic threshold. I am in decent aerobic shape (i.e. I can run 5 miles without stopping) but not great shape (those miles are close to 8 min pace these days).

Saying it is"not really disputable" doesn't make it true. I definitely think it is possible but I want more proof that someones opinions. YMMV.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Just got back from watching the practice rounds and walking the course. It's very hilly.

Ask those walkers whether they play better walking after they've done so four days in a row. It's really not disputable that a cart would be an advantage in that case - at least that's what Palmer, Nicklaus, and Venturi all testified to under oath to the Supreme Court. They should know, wouldn't you think?

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by x129

It is disputable if riding is an advantage. Read any of the threads about walking versus riding (or whines about riding only courses) and most of the walkers claim to play better when walking. Now they could be full of it but they might also have a point. Walking helps with your rythmn, getting a feel for the course, and staying loose. And don't confuse carrying with walking. There is about a 20% energy difference (about the same as the difference between carting and walking) in the studies I have seen. I am guessing the numbers differ quite a bit depending on course and weather conditions.

Even if there was no advantage, we would still have this discussion. It would be all about tradition and the like.

Good grief.....

If it were not a benefit to HIM, he would not be riding, and that's why we wouldn't be having this discussion.

There is NO doubt that riding, especially on a course like that.  That benefit is progressively more important depending on the level of health and fitness of the individual player.  Young, healthy stud, little benefit....heck, maybe none at all.  Older guy with some knee/back issues, quite a bit more.  Casey Martin, so much that he probably cannot even compete without it.  This benefit that is being provided to a single player in this case, and not offered to the rest of the field.

If you feel that's fair, that's ok, we just disagree on the concept of "fairness" as applied to professional sports.  But don't try to convince anyone there isn't a benefit to anyone who may be less fit, or have any number of ailments, if they're allowed to ride.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Certainly you don't dispute that there is an advantage, quantifiable or not, to riding, do you?

Let's face it, if riding didn't provide him a benefit over walking, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I see no more advantage in him riding than the rest of the tour having two healthy legs.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Good grief.....

If it were not a benefit to HIM, he would not be riding, and that's why we wouldn't be having this discussion.

There is NO doubt that riding, especially on a course like that.  That benefit is progressively more important depending on the level of health and fitness of the individual player.  Young, healthy stud, little benefit....heck, maybe none at all.  Older guy with some knee/back issues, quite a bit more.  Casey Martin, so much that he probably cannot even compete without it.  This benefit that is being provided to a single player in this case, and not offered to the rest of the field.

If you feel that's fair, that's ok, we just disagree on the concept of "fairness" as applied to professional sports.  But don't try to convince anyone there isn't a benefit to anyone who may be less fit, or have any number of ailments, if they're allowed to ride.

When you walk do you value those scores more than when you ride?

[zipazoid]

I think the issue isn't so much whether riding v walking is an advantage. It's pretty clear that it is. And if you want to stop right there and not consider the issue further, then you will likely vote No.

What this is about is whether it's an advantage to Casey Martin specifically. Well, on the one hand you can say obviously yes it is, from the standpoint of he either rides or he cannot even play - the cart 'advantage' allows him to compete where he otherwise could not. Again, if you want to stop right there and not consider the issue further, then you will likely vote No.

However, the real question to me is, is Casey Martin, with his disability factored in because it has to be, getting an advantage over ambulatory golfers that must walk? This is where it gets real fuzzy, with no real way to determine what the answer is. If there were a way to quantify how fatigued Martin is at the end of a round riding a cart & limping to/from the cart compared to an ambulatory golfer walking, then we could truly answer whether it's an 'advantage'. And this is where, speaking only for myself, I feel he's not getting an advantage. Instead, the cart provides him only the opportunity to compete. He may be more or less fatigued at the end of a round over an ambulatory golfer. And since we truly don't know, I am erring on the side of inclusion versus exclusion. He qualified to play in the US Open - his game got him there. That's why I voted Yes.

So it comes down to how you perceive the issue. If you view it globally as a riding v walking issue or if you view it specifically as a Casey Martin issue.

And to figure out how to do so, just look at the title of this thread. It's doesn't say Golfers: Cart or Not. It says Casey Martin : Cart or Not.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

When you walk do you value those scores more than when you ride?

Sorry, I don't understand the question.  Of course I don't "value" them more.  I do tend to score better riding these days.....bad knees, stiff joints, old beat-up former Marine body, et.al....

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

And to figure out how to do so, just look at the title of this thread. It's doesn't say Golfers: Cart or Not. It says Casey Martin: Cart or Not.

Exactly.

If it had read "golfers", then the discussion is simply around logistics and traditions of the game.  There wouldn't be any kind of inequity among the field to discuss.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

I see no more advantage in him riding than the rest of the tour having two healthy legs.

Not everyone else has the same level of health or fitness either.  There's a wide disparity.  No doubt that Casey is at the extreme end of the spectrum, but make no mistake, Dustin Johnson's level of fitness and overall health is a LOT different than that of say David Toms....

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Sorry, I don't understand the question.  Of course I don't "value" them more.  I do tend to score better riding these days.....bad knees, stiff joints, old beat-up former Marine body, et.al....

A lot of guys on here would swear they score better when the walk.  Just saying.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Not everyone else has the same level of health or fitness either.  There's a wide disparity.  No doubt that Casey is at the extreme end of the spectrum, but make no mistake, Dustin Johnson's level of fitness and overall health is a LOT different than that of say David Toms....

So you honestly see this man, with a leg he can barely stand on, as having an advantage over the rest of the field because he gets a cart?  Personally I don't see it.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

A lot of guys on here would swear they score better when the walk.  Just saying.

They very well may.  I don't (sadly.....my level of fitness/health isn't what it was 25 years ago) and clearly Casey doesn't either.  I'm guessing there are others in the field this week that will be vastly more worn out from the effort than others.  That's the game though.....

.....with one exception.

I'll add one more time, I'm a HUGE fan of Casey Martin.  An absolute class act and an inspiration to anyone who pays the least bit of attention to what he does.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

So you honestly see this man, with a leg he can barely stand on, as having an advantage over the rest of the field because he gets a cart?  Personally I don't see it.

Not at all.

He is being given a benefit that others are not being given.  Does that make up for his disability? Of course not.  But I don't believe anyone should be trying to "even the playing field" when it comes to physical disparities among the competitors.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by David in FL

They very well may.  I don't (sadly.....my level of fitness/health isn't what it was 25 years ago) and clearly Casey doesn't either.  I'm guessing there are others in the field this week that will be vastly more worn out from the effort than others.  That's the game though.....

.....with one exception.

I'll add one more time, I'm a HUGE fan of Casey Martin.  An absolute class act and an inspiration to anyone who pays the least bit of attention to what he does.

I would go a step further than he doesn't play as well walking and say he can't play walking.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Not at all.

He is being given a benefit that others are not being given.  Does that make up for his disability? Of course not.  But I don't believe anyone should be trying to "even the playing field" when it comes to physical disparities among the competitors.

I think we just see the game differently.  I believe the skill involved in golf is in hitting the ball and not so much the walk up to the ball.  If a man can hit the ball well enough to play in the US Open he should get his shot.  The advantage a cart gives a player (if there is one) is not quantifiable.  The net-advantage Casey Martin has over other players in the field is not quantifiable and very well may not exist at all.  In reality he could just as easily still be at a disadvantage all things considered.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Not at all.

He is being given a benefit that others are not being given.  Does that make up for his disability? Of course not.  But I don't believe anyone should be trying to "even the playing field" when it comes to physical disparities among the competitors.

I don't see it as trying to 'even' the playing field. I see it more a matter of 'allowing' a competitor, who qualified to play in the event by shooting a low enough score (this is a key point) the opportunity to do so.

I get the point of those that say no, walking is an integral part of the game. I get it.

But we are dealing with a unique situation - a player who clearly is good enough to play needing assistance in order to play. Not an advantage , assistance. So the question becomes, is that 'assistance' providing him an advantage over the field? Looking at Casey Martin and his condition, I would say definitely not.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

But we are dealing with a unique situation - a player who clearly is good enough to play needing assistance in order to play. Not an advantage, assistance. So the question becomes, is that 'assistance' providing him an advantage over the field? Looking at Casey Martin and his condition, I would say definitely not.

Simple matter of equity.  He's being given assistance that others, some of whom likely would also benefit from it, are not.

I've never claimed that the cart gives him an overall advantage over the entire field.  That's not the point....not even a little bit.