snap hooking the ball off the tee

[duffedit]

My swing has startes to feel really unnatural...any shot i make feels uncomfortable im still hitting my irons ok but i know im way off my swing plane.....with my driver i have this mental thing going where i cant hardly hit a ball with out snap hooking it really low shots with alot of hook on them any ideas im pretty sure im just not making a full turn back to my target but any drill or ideas how to get my swing back on plane...i think with my driver im just to hesitant because i cant attack the ball like i usually can because im so far off plane....

[EverythingGolf]

There are a few things that can cause this, grip, path, etc. Where does the ball start, straight, left, right? Its easier to see whats going on if you could post a video of your swing.

[duffedit]

It starts off straight but pretty quickly goes left...ill get a video up of my swing soon....i had my pro look at my grip the other day when i saw him on the range i really rhink its my plane

[Adam Young]

we cant say for sure what your path is doing, but you can be Damn sure the clubface is closed at impact. Find a way of opening the face out - weakening the grip, using less hand rotation, setting up wit the clubface more open at address etc are all good ways.

Check you are not hitting the driver with the toe end of the club also, this can cause a lot of gear effect - basically the clubhead twists open - but it leads to a lot of hookspin. Get a marker pen, mark the golf ball and hit the ball. You will see a mark on your driver clubface. Adjust it until you are hitting the middle.

[duffedit]

Idk why this slipped my mind when i posted i know my plane is off but im regripping with my right hand and by the time i regrip ive already started rotating my arms and after the shot my club face is way closed I've tried and tried and keep regripping

[blue72ss]

This is my problem when I make a bad swing as well,  common sense will tell you that it cant be just your grip or something simple, it is definitly your plane.  If you didnt release the club, it would be a huge slice instead of your hook, because you are TOO STEEP.

A common hacker will attack the ball at too steep of an angle, not release the clubhead, and hit a huge slice.

A bigger turn on your backswing is the easiest way to get your hands on a better plane coming back down to the ball.  I've been taught a drill but it is kinda hard to explain.

Basically I take a 7 iron, and make sure I have light grip pressure, and take small half swings (aiming at the 100yd marker with 7 iron), focusing solely on a smooth weight transfer from back foot to front foot, the main goal and purpose of this drill is to start the downswing with your lower body and just let the hands follow, almost to the point where you think your hands are so far behind that they cant catch up to the ball, but they do, and for me with a half swing I will pure the ball and hit it damn near close to as far as my full 7 iron, which further instills into my thick headed brain that swinging correctly and not so hard produces the same power.

This drill's purpose is to eliminate what you probably do now, too steep coming down because your starting the downswing your upper body instead of your lower body.  That is the main difference between tour pros and amatuers, tour pros ALL start the downswing with the lower body, Adam Scott even starts his lower body before his hands have completed the backswing, its how guys like Rory McIlroy can hit a 2 iron 298 yards like he did Saturday, past JB Holmes 3 wood.

For years I thought I was too flat which was causing duck hooks but I was actually too steep, promoting a pull hook if the club head is  released, and a slice if the club head is not released.

Mess around with that drill and focus on starting the weight shift to the left while your hands are still going back, you'll notice an incredible feeling when you pure it and the ball goes a mile becasue you've just "swung" with your body instead of "hit the ball" with just your upper body

[duffedit]

Im working late the next two days but will dwfintly work on that i feel like im sucking the club way inside and im for sure way to steep thanka for the advice

[Adam Young]

Word of caution with the last piece of advice - although it could be correct that you are steep and hitting a pull hook - simply changing the path may make you worse. If your clubface is closed to the path already (which it is, a ball doesnt curl left if it is not) then making the swing path come more from the inside is just going to dreate a bigger difference. Sure the ball may start a couple or yards further right, but it may then hook back worse as the difference between path and face is now greater. There is a chnace it could work if both path and face work more to the right

I would say the best bet is to open the clubface out until the ball stops curving left at least - maybe not so much that it slices per se, but enough that the curve goes away - this is a much easier chnage to make than a whole body change, and it may address the real problem.

If the problem IS path, as the above poster suggests, then doing a combination of both our advices would be beneficical. But I would start with the clubface stuff first as you dont know if the path is already too much in-to-out.

Other than that, go to a pro, or post your swing here (DTL) and we can diagnose better

[duffedit]

I completely agree with that the point is getting my face open at impactbut i feel like the reason its so closwd is becauae im regripping i feel me left hand turning the club over while my right hand is barely even touching the club if my regripping of the club ia causes because im so far of plane at the top i believe getting into a better top position will definitely help my hook i have tommorow off and plan on spensing alot of time at the ranfe then play a round i will work on botj suggestions......yall are awesome thanks for the help guys

[blue72ss]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Word of caution with the last piece of advice - although it could be correct that you are steep and hitting a pull hook - simply changing the path may make you worse. If your clubface is closed to the path already (which it is, a ball doesnt curl left if it is not) then making the swing path come more from the inside is just going to dreate a bigger difference. Sure the ball may start a couple or yards further right, but it may then hook back worse as the difference between path and face is now greater. There is a chnace it could work if both path and face work more to the right

I would say the best bet is to open the clubface out until the ball stops curving left at least - maybe not so much that it slices per se, but enough that the curve goes away - this is a much easier chnage to make than a whole body change, and it may address the real problem.

If the problem IS path, as the above poster suggests, then doing a combination of both our advices would be beneficical. But I would start with the clubface stuff first as you dont know if the path is already too much in-to-out.

Other than that, go to a pro, or post your swing here (DTL) and we can diagnose better

I agree that the clubface has to be open, I believe that goes without saying.  However if you are talking about opening the clubface at address (I'm not sure if you are), then that is incorrect, the clubface needs to be square to your target at adress (unless you are trying to work the ball of course).  You never want to open or close the clubface at address to fix a swing flaw.

It is interesting that you said "just open the clubface" would be easier than a "whole body change".  That would seem correct, but in fact couldnt be further from the truth, if you move your body right it is easy to produce solid contact.

Again I'm not certain you suggessted opening the clubface at address or through impact, but at address would be a mistake.  If you are talking about through impact, then yes that needs to happen.

[duffedit]

I rhink the goal is to get it more open at impact ....i believe my regripping is what is allowing this nasty closing off the clubface and will getting on plane help....i will get a video up asap of my swing i need to get a video recorder i cant video mydelf on my pho e

[Adam Young]

Quote:

I agree that the clubface has to be open, I believe that goes without saying.  However if you are talking about opening the clubface at address (I'm not sure if you are), then that is incorrect

Interesting, I actually DID mean open the face at address. Although any other method of creating a more open face at impact may also function - usually a player must experiment to find out what is more comfortable for them. There is no 'correct' was of doing it.

Quote:

the clubface needs to be square to your target at adress (unless you are trying to work the ball of course).  You never want to open or close the clubface at address to fix a swing flaw.

Why?

I am a professional golfer who suffers with a left curving ball as their main fault. I have worked on my path, and made this much better. But I also still have a tendancy to close the face down - call it 20 years of doing it (muscle memory maybe). I can cure it in one ball - by opening the face at address. Somedays I need a 5 degree open face to square it, somedays I need a 10 degree oepn face to have it square at impact. The goal is to have it square at impact, if that requires an open or closed face at address then so be it.

A question for you... How many tour pro's have a square face at address. you would be surprised to know the real answer to that.

there is a difference between reading a textbook and having a nice theory, and actually playing the game.

Quote:

Again I'm not certain you suggessted opening the clubface at address or through impact, but at address would be a mistake.  If you are talking about through impact, then yes that needs to happen.

Yes, I did suggest at address (although was only one of 3 suggestions). if you open the face at address (then grip it) then make the exact same swing, the clubface will be more open at impact. Voila! Maybe the problem was that I didnt specify opening the face first, then taking your grip. My mistake.

Quote:

It is interesting that you said "just open the clubface" would be easier than a "whole body change".  That would seem correct, but in fact couldnt be further from the truth, if you move your body right it is easy to produce solid contact.

Changing body motion requires practice to ingrain the new move. Even then, they may not be physically able to do it. If you study TPI you will see that there can be many physical causes for poor body motion. Lack of strenght in certain areas, flexibility issues, Joint issues etc. Even then, we are fighting again old ingrained neurological patterning and neuromuscular conditioning (formerly known as muscle memory). Even if we did get the body motion better, there is no guarantee that a better body motion equals better hit, especially if the person is required to think about the new move. Scientific studies have shown that the more conscious thought involved in a movement, the less consistency is achieved, especially in fine motor skills. you don't get a more fine motor skill than golf.

Who says better body motion produces easier strike anyway. To a certain extent, obviously. If someone is so far off a good technique. But there are many ways to hit a golf ball. Unfortunately, without seeing the swing on video, we shouldnt suggest any body/path changes as they may not be correct. You state that the person may be steep and swinging left - but a ball can start left purely from a closed face, even if the path is to the right. All we can say for sure is that clubface is a problem

[blue72ss]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Interesting, I actually DID mean open the face at address. Although any other method of creating a more open face at impact may also function - usually a player must experiment to find out what is more comfortable for them. There is no 'correct' was of doing it.

Why?

I am a professional golfer who suffers with a left curving ball as their main fault. I have worked on my path, and made this much better. But I also still have a tendancy to close the face down - call it 20 years of doing it (muscle memory maybe). I can cure it in one ball - by opening the face at address. Somedays I need a 5 degree open face to square it, somedays I need a 10 degree oepn face to have it square at impact. The goal is to have it square at impact, if that requires an open or closed face at address then so be it.

A question for you... How many tour pro's have a square face at address. you would be surprised to know the real answer to that.

there is a difference between reading a textbook and having a nice theory, and actually playing the game.

Yes, I did suggest at address (although was only one of 3 suggestions). if you open the face at address (then grip it) then make the exact same swing, the clubface will be more open at impact. Voila! Maybe the problem was that I didnt specify opening the face first, then taking your grip. My mistake.

Question, what happens when you open your clubface 10 degrees at address, then make a perfect swing on plane and square clubface (which is now 10 degrees open because you've opened it at address)?  The answer is that you will hit a huge slice.

A tour pro's clubface may be open or closed relative to his feet alignment depending on which way he wants to work the ball, but you can bet it is nowhere near 5 to 10 degrees off of the target.  That would make him have to compensate by 5 to 10 degrees to get back to square to the target.

Playing the game is even more simple than the textbook, when a 20 handicapper goes and gets a lesson, what is the first thing 99 out of 100 PGA teachers will observe and fix if necessary?  Answer:  Alignment (feet, hips, shoulders, clubface)

It is necessary to have your body (feet,hips,shoulders) paralell to your target to be a consistent ball striker, and it almost goes without saying that if your clubface is not pointed at the target at address it will be a guessing game on where the clubface will be at impact.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by blue72ss

Question, what happens when you open your clubface 10 degrees at address, then make a perfect swing on plane and square clubface (which is now 10 degrees open because you've opened it at address)?  The answer is that you will hit a huge slice.

A tour pro's clubface may be open or closed relative to his feet alignment depending on which way he wants to work the ball, but you can bet it is nowhere near 5 to 10 degrees off of the target.  That would make him have to compensate by 5 to 10 degrees to get back to square to the target.

Playing the game is even more simple than the textbook, when a 20 handicapper goes and gets a lesson, what is the first thing 99 out of 100 PGA teachers will observe and fix if necessary?  Answer:  Alignment (feet, hips, shoulders, clubface)

It is necessary to have your body (feet,hips,shoulders) paralell to your target to be a consistent ball striker, and it almost goes without saying that if your clubface is not pointed at the target at address it will be a guessing game on where the clubface will be at impact.

Lol

If he is snap hooking it, it is likely his face is shut at impact by at least 5 degrees or so. Opening it by 5 degrees at address and making the same swing will get the clubface square at impact. This is exactly what I do. I have had it measured on trackman. I dont think you understand the difference between address and impact.

Besides, this guy is not making a perfect swing, on plane and square clubface. How many people DO make a perfect swing - no one. All good players play wit compensations to some degree. If he was making a perfect swing with perfect plane and perfect clubface we wouldnt be discussing how to fix his snap hook.

around about 90% of tour pro's have an open face at address to some extent, this is even true when they are square at impact. Every player has a pattern, most good players have a pattern of closing the face down to some degree, so opening it up at address can help alleviate this, rather than making a conscious manipulation to the swing to correct for this.

If you think the game is as simple as just aligning your feet hips and shoulders, you are grossly mistaken. how do you account for the fact that Hogan aimed his feet right and shoulders left, Jack nicklaus aimed his feet right, Fred Couples aimed his feet right, Lee Trevino aimed his feet about 45 degrees left. we are looking to get the club path and face square - the means by which we achieve this is largely irrelevant. Theoretically, aiming your feet, hips and shoulders parallel to the target is the way to do it, and in practice this CAN work. But it is not the only way to do it, as a lot of the great players throughout history have shown.

And yes, it is a guessing game at where the clubface is at impact. It is even for the top pro's - thats why tour stats for driving are only 60% accuracy, and same for greens in regulation. But if a player has a definite patter - 90% of balls go left - then opening the face to any degree through any means will alleviate this. Whether you want to set up with the face square at address and chnage the swing, or just make a simple clubface change at address is your choice. The latter is easier in my book.

If you were to stick this guy on trackman and get him to hit 10 balls with his face square at address, you would probably find his clubface is maybe 10 degrees closed on average at impact (that is why he is hooking). If we were to open the face by 10 degrees at address and make the same swing, his average would now be square with the face. See how that works?

[blue72ss]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Lol

If he is snap hooking it, it is likely his face is shut at impact by at least 5 degrees or so. Opening it by 5 degrees at address and making the same swing will get the clubface square at impact. This is exactly what I do. I have had it measured on trackman. I dont think you understand the difference between address and impact.

Besides, this guy is not making a perfect swing, on plane and square clubface. How many people DO make a perfect swing - no one. All good players play wit compensations to some degree. If he was making a perfect swing with perfect plane and perfect clubface we wouldnt be discussing how to fix his snap hook.

around about 90% of tour pro's have an open face at address to some extent, this is even true when they are square at impact. Every player has a pattern, most good players have a pattern of closing the face down to some degree, so opening it up at address can help alleviate this, rather than making a conscious manipulation to the swing to correct for this.

If you think the game is as simple as just aligning your feet hips and shoulders, you are grossly mistaken. how do you account for the fact that Hogan aimed his feet right and shoulders left, Jack nicklaus aimed his feet right, Fred Couples aimed his feet right, Lee Trevino aimed his feet about 45 degrees left. we are looking to get the club path and face square - the means by which we achieve this is largely irrelevant. Theoretically, aiming your feet, hips and shoulders parallel to the target is the way to do it, and in practice this CAN work. But it is not the only way to do it, as a lot of the great players throughout history have shown.

And yes, it is a guessing game at where the clubface is at impact. It is even for the top pro's - thats why tour stats for driving are only 60% accuracy, and same for greens in regulation. But if a player has a definite patter - 90% of balls go left - then opening the face to any degree through any means will alleviate this. Whether you want to set up with the face square at address and chnage the swing, or just make a simple clubface change at address is your choice. The latter is easier in my book.

If you were to stick this guy on trackman and get him to hit 10 balls with his face square at address, you would probably find his clubface is maybe 10 degrees closed on average at impact (that is why he is hooking). If we were to open the face by 10 degrees at address and make the same swing, his average would now be square with the face. See how that works?

He is hooking as of 3 days ago, so what happens 3 days from now when this pattern stops and opening the clubface 10 degrees has created a new problem.?  Changing clubface positioning at address to correct a major swing flaw is ludacris, it only works if you consistently over time do the same exact thing over and over, so if he has hit a pull hook for years and is anticipating doing to same for years to come, then maybe opening the clubface 10 degrees would be a viable option.

As I stated before, there is a reason 99 out of 100 PGA teaching professionals will start a lesson with alignment.

We are not giving advice to a tour pro here.  A tour pro may have a 60 % fairway accuracy, but those courses the fairways are twice as narrow as a local public course, and when a pro misses left or right, it is by how much ?  10 yards, 20 yards?  You wont see a pro (very often) miss as far off target as amateurs.  This is a fact, a tour pro is a better golfer than an amateur, so when they miss it is obviously not nearly as bad.  So again, we are not giving advice to a tour pro, just because Bubba Watson can aim 100 yards to the right of the target and pull it off doesnt mean you should too, and Bubba's clubface will be pointed at the target at adress and impact anyway, so it furthers mutes your point.

If you are indeed a professional, you may be the first professional in the history of the game of golf to odvise a change in club face position at adress as a cure to fix a major swing flaw, not a minor swing flaw of slight too much fade or slight to much draw or slight too low or high trajectory, but a major swing flaw of duck pull hooks.

If it were me I would focus on not being so steep and you will notice an instant difference when you get back to being on plane.

[Adam Young]

Again - you should not offer that advice of fixing steep, as you cannot be sure that is even the fault.

Fix the clubface - in any way you want. If you want to aim it straight at address and weaken the grip, or feel a different release, or open it out in the backswing it is your choice.

Originally Posted by blue72ss

He is hooking as of 3 days ago, so what happens 3 days from now when this pattern stops and opening the clubface 10 degrees has created a new problem.?  Changing clubface positioning at address to correct a major swing flaw is ludacris, it only works if you consistently over time do the same exact thing over and over, so if he has hit a pull hook for years and is anticipating doing to same for years to come, then maybe opening the clubface 10 degrees would be a viable option.

When his pattern stops then obviously he has found found a clubface position that works. The thing is, it can be different every day - somedays, for whatever reason, our hand rotation may be more aggressive for example. You are going to need a tool that allows you to get he ball around the golf course. opening the face at address is a perfectly viable tool.

As I said, some days I will have the clubface 3 degrees open, somedays 5, somedays 10. To be honest, I dont know the exact numbers, I just keep opening it until the ball fligh is calibrated to what I want.

As a 7 handicap, you may think you are a good player. But it is probably your orthodoxy that is holding you back from being better. It certainly was for me. I used to try and do everything textbook, make my swing perfect, align everything  perfect. Then I started studying the best golfers, started experimenting with my own game and found out what works for ME. Thats what took the jump from a good amateur to a professional level. It is the ability to PLAY the game, not swing the club. That is the point. everyone is different and will have different movement patterns. With a perfect alignment of body and clubface, you are going to need a perfect swing. Or you can just try and get the impact factors correct within the framework of your own swing. this is the most realistic option as no one has or ever will develop the perfect swing.

Hogan suffered with a left hook for the early part of his career. Everything in his book was designed to countract this - a weaker than normal grip position, a closed stance and a left swing path, a cupped left wrist at the top of the swing. He found his own way of getting the ball flight he wanted. just like 90% of pros open or close the face to some extent to get the ball flight they want.I'm not saying that opening the face is the best option, but it is certainly the easiest and one that all good players have and will use to some extend to control their ball flight. I saw stats for Charles howell recently on tarckman. For him to hit a draw required a 5 degree open face. For a straighter shot that landed on the target, he required a 7 degree open face, and to fade it he had to have it even more open at address.

By your theory, all you would have to do to hit a straight shot is align your feet and hips perfectly, then make a perfect swing with a perfect pane, path, clubface, strike etc all through the swing. Good luck with that - could spend the rest of your life working on it. I'm happy opening the face at address and gunning it under par.

Again - a big difference between playing golf and playing golf swing

[moparman426]

and...

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue72ss

ludacris,

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by moparman426

How exactly does one "release" the golf club?

Ok, release is an edgy word, but it is referring to the rotation velocity of the clubhead. It is similar to playing more or less topspin in table tennis. It is more a feeling than an accurate representation of what happens. But then we play this game with feel