Lance Armstrong - about time too!

[bwdial]

Look... the doping stuff is all BS.  Lance's real advantage is the single testicle.  It's much easier to pedal in those tight pants with only one nut.

[Valleygolfer]

Eh, sports like this on this level are full of people doing what ever it takes. I imagine 1st through 25th place doped. Get used to it.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by Valleygolfer

Eh, sports like this on this level are full of people doing what ever it takes. I imagine 1st through 25th place doped. Get used to it.

More like 1st to 185th, but that's not the point.

[bplewis24]

I take a great deal of satisfaction coming back to this thread knowing that one of the biggest frauds in our nation's history is finally banned. And yes, pretty much everybody in the sport did it. Which makes the support that he garnered that much more comical. Brandon

[x129]

yeah he is a freak of nature who just happened to choose an EPO linked doctor because he enjoyed his company. And it just happened that testing his 1999 sample in 2004 resulted in an EPO positive result. And he has a dozen of friends who are all committing perjury because they are jealous. And it just happens that is comeback after EPO testing was instituted happened to result in the suspicious blood tests that restarted this whole mess.  Lance should have stayed retired. His comeback doomed him to this fate. He should have stayed retired and let the statue of limitations expire.

Again look at the history of doping in endurance events. You could have taken as much EPO or down as much blood packing as you wanted from 1990-~2004 and had zero risk of getting caught.  Passing a test then ment nothing. The dopers were so far ahead of the testers it was crazy. Things have gotten a bit closer but you are beyond naive if you don't think the dopers still have the advantage.

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Imagine being tested over and over, including awakened in the middle of the night without notice, for years and years and then being pursued for years and years after you retire. What does he win if cleared this time? This is not a criminal charge like Roger Clemens. Armstrong can simply decide enough is enough -- you win -- leave me alone. He's been cleared hundreds of times but it has not put an end to the investigations and accusations against him. Do you believe him more after he's been cleared? The pursuit keeps going and going. The truth does not change. He is either guilty and they have not proved it for over a decade, or he is not.

Those who can not accept his freak of nature physiology will never believe he is clean. And for some reason, the USADA has been on this guy since he first started doing well after the cancer sidelined him. He has been drug tested more than any athlete in history and never failed a test.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by x129

Again look at the history of doping in endurance events. You could have taken as much EPO or down as much blood packing as you wanted from 1990-~2004 and had zero risk of getting caught.  Passing a test then ment nothing. The dopers were so far ahead of the testers it was crazy. Things have gotten a bit closer but you are beyond naive if you don't think the dopers still have the advantage.

The perception that I have (as an admitted non-fan of cycling - it ranks down there with WNBA and marathons for viewing excitement in my book) is that everybody is doping.  I have a co-worker who is big into cycling and he helped feed that opinion for me.

I may be way off, but my thoughts are that if everybody was doping (our fearless thread starter agrees), then why are they going after Lance Armstrong?  Because he cheated a little bit better than the other 100% of cyclists who cheated?

Seems like the focus should be off Armstrong and on the testing procedures of the sport, because at this rate, there is going to be a controversy surrounding every person that wins the Tour de France every year.  In fact, it seems like it already is.  Have they busted this years winner yet?  Have they started going after the 2nd place guy yet?  3rd place?

Combine all of that with the whole "each team has 10 or 20 guys - or whatever - on it but there is really only one guy who has a chance to win because of politics and other random stuff" and it reminds me how lame cycling is.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Combine all of that with the whole "each team has 10 or 20 guys - or whatever - on it but there is really only one guy who has a chance to win because of politics and other random stuff" and it reminds me how lame cycling is.

Cycling is a magnificent, beautiful team sport, the intricacies of it being only really obvious to theiose who follow the sport keenly.

A non golfer would not be too interested in watching Tiger line up a 7 foot bogey putt on tye 70th hole  of a major without having a context in which to locate what he is seeing.

Armstrong's particular case is that his persistent claims of never having tested positive (hello Marion Jones) are known to be untrue and there is a conga line of ex team mates and coaches and doctors who were ready to implicate themselves further or face more penalties themselves.

It is his arrogance and denial that have finally undone him. At least the others accepted their medicine (no pun intended) and had a degre of credibility restored. Not Lance, he's above it all, and now he's got the rest of his life to live with his shameful legacy.

Look up Christophe Bassons if you want a true glimpse into the true character of Lance Armstrong.

I know (yes, personally ) a person who finished 6 Tour de Frances and you wouldn't even raise the subject with him, but the idea of Lance or virtually anyone else being clean up until the about 5 years ago  is a joke. Bassons excepted.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Cycling is a magnificent team sport, the intricacies of it being only really obvioius to theiose who follow the sport keenly.

A non golfer would not be too interested in watching Tiger line up a 7 foot bogey putt on tye 70th hole  of a major without having a context in which to locate what he is seeing.

Very true.  I should have said it's lame TO ME.  I apologize to cycling fans everywhere.

If someone wants to 'get me back', I will tell you right now that I like to watch bowling on TV, and not lately, but in the past, have watched NASCAR as well.

[jamo]

Look... the doping stuff is all BS.  Lance's [U]real[/U] advantage is the single testicle.  It's much easier to pedal in those tight pants with only one nut.

And think of all the weight he's saving!

[newtogolf]

What does the President have to do with this thread?  Oh we're still talking about cycling.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

I take a great deal of satisfaction coming back to this thread knowing that one of the biggest frauds in our nation's history is finally banned.

And yes, pretty much everybody in the sport did it. Which makes the support that he garnered that much more comical.

Brandon

[Leftygolfer]

He is the most dominant athlete in the history of his sport.  I think that he was doing the same things as everyone else.  But he won 7 times.  Now they are stripping him of his titles to give to someone others who were doing the same thing, yet not subject to the witch hunt he was.  It is rediculous to come back 6 years later.  They all were playing by the same rules which they all were breaking.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

He is the most dominant athlete in the history of his sport.  I think that he was doing the same things as everyone else.  But he won 7 times.  Now they are stripping him of his titles to give to someone others who were doing the same thing, yet not subject to the witch hunt he was.  It is rediculous to come back 6 years later.  They all were playing by the same rules which they all were breaking.

He is not the most dominant athlete in the history of his sport. Why comment on a sport when you know nothing about it?

And... another person who parrots Armstrong's use of the term "witch hunt".

It is not a witch hunt, it is the bringing to justice of a person who apparently systematically and cynically attempted to avoid responsibility - and who has now refused to have his case go to arbitration. Why would an innocent person do that? I think we all know, actually.

And they are not going  to award the 7 titles to other riders like Jan Ulrich who also doped.

[Jmdmbike]

He is the most dominant athlete in the history of his sport.  I think that he was doing the same things as everyone else.  But he won 7 times.  Now they are stripping him of his titles to give to someone others who were doing the same thing, yet not subject to the witch hunt he was.  It is rediculous to come back 6 years later.  They all were playing by the same rules which they all were breaking.

Agree with this - probably the way this will end up. I just hope they test the shit out of whoever they plan on giving these titles to, although they will never be 100% certain that the winner is clean. It would be friggin' hilarious if they had to redo this stuff again in 5 years because the "real" champion turned out to be the same as Armstrong.

[darkhunter139]

Originally Posted by Shorty

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lance-armstrong-faces-fresh-doping-charges-from-usada/2012/06/13/gJQAefnPaV_story.html

It's been pretty much accepted by all but the most gullible that Armstrong wasn't as squeaky clean as he liked everyone to think, but it seems that at last he's going to have to face the music seriosuly. About time.

He is probably one of the most tested/targeted athletes in the history of sports and they still could not prove that he doped after all this time.  I don't see how people are gullible that think there is a chance he might not have.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by darkhunter139

He is probably one of the most tested/targeted athletes in the history of sports and they still could not prove that he doped after all this time.

He keeps on repeating this mantra as you have. It isn't true. He had a chance to defend himself. He didn't. He preferred to lose his reputation and be known forever more as a cheat whilst hiding behind his charity, rather than defend himself. Does that make sense? Do you know how long the list of charges against him is? Do you seriously think that USDA had no evidence? One of the USDAs charges was trafficking.

[Snakey]

Originally Posted by darkhunter139

He is probably one of the most tested/targeted athletes in the history of sports and they still could not prove that he doped after all this time.  I don't see how people are gullible that think there is a chance he might not have.

Marion Jones? Clean as a whistle.

[Chas]

Originally Posted by Shorty

He keeps on repeating this mantra as you have. It isn't true. He had a chance to defend himself. He didn't. He preferred to lose his reputation and be known forever more as a cheat whilst hiding behind his charity, rather than defend himself. Does that make sense? Do you know how long the list of charges against him is? Do you seriously think that USDA had no evidence? One of the USDAs charges was trafficking.

Well said.  Anyone with any knowlege of erythropoietin, and the difference between natural and recominant forms of the protein, will know that the antibody-based tests that were conducted for all those years were not designed or validated to assess the concentration of the recombinant, or engineered, protein.  These tests were only validated for native epo and likely would not detect, or would be much less sensitive for, other forms of the protein.  The fact that native (or NATURAL) erythropoietin levels in Lance's blood were not above some cutoff value in 500 tests in no way demonstrated that his body did not contain biologically active levels of the recombinant protein.

Let us not be naive.

So the assay results neither prove nor disprove the accusation against the man, of themselves.  On the other hand, there are apparently about ten people who were going to testify that they knew directly, or from Armstrong's own words, that he was doping for a long period of time.  So  .... either these people are lying or Armstrong is lying.  Yes, it is possible that the ten are lying through their teeth but imo it is far more likely that Armstrong is so far gone that he will not tell the truth, a truth that would be ruinous to his empire.  The consequences to his financial interests (Nike, etc etc) are too great, and of course his cancer charity - a most worthy cause - would also be greatly damaged.  His strategy now is to ignore the accusations and focus on his cancer work in hopes that the latter will give him a pass.

I am a long time cancer research scientist, with a particular interest in assaying biological proteins in blood samples (predictive biomarker research in oncology) and have to tell you that this strategy of Lance's doesn't work with me .... but it might with many people who can't see any further than the importance of cancer research (which I trust we all support) and who have no real interest in the integrity of professional cycling.

[Chas]

Quote:

Originally Posted It would be friggin' hilarious if they had to redo this stuff again in 5 years because the "real" champion turned out to be the same as Armstrong.

Sadly that is a very real possibility.  I assume that blood samples have been banked and stored at -80C or something - as they are in the clinical trials that I have worked on - and are available for testing with newly developed assays for recombinant proteins with biological activity.

One could I suppose use a so-called "bioassay", that measures cellular or in vivo response rather than protein concentrations directly, but that would open another can of worms I suspect.  My own familiarity with bioassays (rather than immunoassays) is rather limited but I understand the principle.  Problem is that they do not yield a definitive concentration of any particular molecule or class of molecules, leaving too much room for interpretation/denial.