second ball on tee

[Rulesman]

Ok but would you let him take any of the options in rule 26.

eg if he didn't like his provisional

[Snowgolf]

Going back to the OP. The moment he stated that he wasn't hitting a provisional everything is moot. As soon as he hits from the tee that ball is in play and he is lying 3.

We had this happen recently in a money game. on of our opponents hit and it looked like it went through the fairway and into the garbage. He then stated "I'm going to hit another" he never said the word "provisional" or identified either ball. When we all got into the area where the balls were we found both. he then stated "oh thats my first one i'm playing it." My reply was "No your not. You never declared a provisional ball so your playing the second one and your lying 3".

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

Going back to the OP. The moment he stated that he wasn't hitting a provisional everything is moot. As soon as he hits from the tee that ball is in play and he is lying 3.

We had this happen recently in a money game. on of our opponents hit and it looked like it went through the fairway and into the garbage. He then stated "I'm going to hit another" he never said the word "provisional" or identified either ball. When we all got into the area where the balls were we found both. he then stated "oh thats my first one i'm playing it." My reply was "No your not. You never declared a provisional ball so your playing the second one and your lying 3".

This is a big difference between you and me then, because I would have asked him before he hit if he was playing a provisional ball.  Golf is supposed to be a game between honorable players.  I like to do my best to uphold that tradition.

[joekelly]

Fourputt, honorable or otherwise, is it your policy to inquire of your fellow competitors what they plan to do?  Some blokes i have met on the course would take great exception to your nosy inquiries.

[Snowgolf]

Asking him what he is going to to could be considered a breach of the iadvice rule 8.1. Since a young age I was taught to keep my mouth shut until after a player hits. I have seen guys open their mouths before a player hit and get hit with the two stroke penalty for advising them on how to play. It's the responsability of each player to know the rules. If it's a casual round I don't care if you want to hit a mulligan or breakfast ball or what ever you call it. The minute you want to play for money you better know and play by the rules. Knowing the rules and following the correct procedures is what being a "honorable " player is about. Rule 27-2 provisional ball is very specific regarding the procedures for playing a provisional ball.

FYI this was the guy who wanted to play for money and then wanted to have a mulligan on the first hole of the match. Both my partner and I told him no mulligans but he was free to hit a third shot. If anything his partner who could give him advice should have asked if it was a Provisional.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

Asking him what he is going to to could be considered a breach of the iadvice rule 8.1.

More likely as an advice on rules, which is not breach of rules.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

Asking him what he is going to to could be considered a breach of the iadvice rule 8.1. Since a young age I was taught to keep my mouth shut until after a player hits. I have seen guys open their mouths before a player hit and get hit with the two stroke penalty for advising them on how to play. It's the responsability of each player to know the rules. If it's a casual round I don't care if you want to hit a mulligan or breakfast ball or what ever you call it. The minute you want to play for money you better know and play by the rules. Knowing the rules and following the correct procedures is what being a "honorable " player is about. Rule 27-2 provisional ball is very specific regarding the procedures for playing a provisional ball.

Top pros are also playing for money but they still would not abandon their honorable conduct. Let us take an example.

Player A is about to tee off slightly in front of the tee markers. Player B, his fellow-competitor sees it. I gather you as player B would keep your mouth shut until A had driven off and only then tell him that he just earned 2 penalty strokes and has to play another ball from the tee. Me as player B I would advice A before he makes the stroke. This is what I call honorable conduct.

Same thing goes with your example. I would ask if he is playing a provisional in order to avoid any arguments afterwards and to make sure we all would be playing by the Rules.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Paradox

In a tournament..yes that would be the correct procedure but I guess I'm just thinking more in terms of public course/daily fee play.  You're accomplishing the same thing by going ahead and playing a second ball before you leave the tee box.

I would advice you not to bring any 'public course/daily fee play' type of 'rules' up here as some people might take them seriously. What we try to do on this forum is to find the correct way to play, i.e. according to the Rules of Golf.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

Asking him what he is going to to could be considered a breach of the iadvice rule 8.1. Since a young age I was taught to keep my mouth shut until after a player hits. I have seen guys open their mouths before a player hit and get hit with the two stroke penalty for advising them on how to play. It's the responsability of each player to know the rules. If it's a casual round I don't care if you want to hit a mulligan or breakfast ball or what ever you call it. The minute you want to play for money you better know and play by the rules. Knowing the rules and following the correct procedures is what being a "honorable " player is about. Rule 27-2 provisional ball is very specific regarding the procedures for playing a provisional ball.

FYI this was the guy who wanted to play for money and then wanted to have a mulligan on the first hole of the match. Both my partner and I told him no mulligans but he was free to hit a third shot. If anything his partner who could give him advice should have asked if it was a Provisional.

Asking a player if he is going to play a provisional is not advice. Nor is suggesting to a player that it might be a good idea to play a provisional considered to be advice.

Further, warning a fellow competitor that he might be about to breach a rule is not advice but is considered good etiquette. In fact as Referees we are taught that we have a primary duty to help prevent players breaching a rule. Awarding penalties is secondary.

[cc41139]

There are no provisionals for "water hazard" balls. As soon as you play the "provisional", it becomes the ball in play.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by cc41139

There are no provisionals for "water hazard" balls. As soon as you play the "provisional", it becomes the ball in play.

In OP case "it was not known or virtually sure" that the ball was in WH. And this has been discussed before, also in this thread.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by cc41139

There are no provisionals for "water hazard" balls. As soon as you play the "provisional", it becomes the ball in play.

Perhaps you should read the first sentence of Rule 27-2a.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by joekelly

Fourputt, honorable or otherwise, is it your policy to inquire of your fellow competitors what they plan to do?  Some blokes i have met on the course would take great exception to your nosy inquiries.

This is an insulting and demeaning accusation.  I take you'd rather be an ass and tell your opponent or fellow competitor after the fact that he had incurred a penalty rather than stopping him from doing so before he makes the mistake.

I'll be nosy about helping a player to avoid an incorrect drop from an obstruction too.  He gets to drop without penalty away from interference from an obstruction or abnormal ground, but far too many players really have little idea of how to find the nearest point of relief, or what to do when they've found it.  If he does it incorrectly and then plays from a wrong place, he gets penalized 2 strokes.  I guess you'd just let him hit, then call the penalty.  Nice guy.

I happen to have respect for the people I play with, and I don't want to gain an advantage by using my knowledge of the rules against them.  I'm well aware that I'm more conversant with the rules than 99% of the golfers I play with, so I'm more interested in helping them to play correctly, and just maybe pass on some of my expertise, than I am at winning at all costs.  I've never yet had anyone be anything but grateful for avoiding an unnecessary penalty.

Obviously I'm mostly talking about competitions.  I don't go all pedantic about it during casual rounds unless I'm asked, or I'm playing with friends who I know have an interest in learning.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by joekelly

Fourputt, honorable or otherwise, is it your policy to inquire of your fellow competitors what they plan to do?  Some blokes i have met on the course would take great exception to your nosy inquiries.

Well, obviously 'some blokes' are not mature enough to play golf as it is meant to be played...

[Snowgolf]

You guys are missing key parts to the rule.

A player teeing up in front of the markers or more than 2 clubs behind would be in breach of the rule if they did play that shot. Stopping him from doing so would not be giving advice.

A player saying 'I'm going to hit another " has not breached any rule nor would a rule be broken if the player waits till everyone else has hit and silently spikes up another ball and hits it. The only time the rule would be broken would be when he/she finds the first one and wants to play that ball. Likewise if the player hit a provisional not being "virtually" certain that his ball was lost in a hazard then finds that ball in the hazard. He/she must abandon the provisional and take the proper steps based on the type of hazard.

So when your opponent says "I'm hitting another" they have not and are not about to violate any rules. And in fact have stated their intention as to how they are going to procede. When he/she plays the shot the ball is in play.

If they have stated their intent to play another ball and as he is in the process of setting up or addressing the ball and you ask " Is that a provisional" and it causes him to stop or have to begin his set up again you have breached the information rule at that moment since you altered their process of hitting the shot.

I have seen this happen at a tournament. The player on the tee turned around and said " No I'm replaying my shot thanks for the advice that will cost you 2 strokes" The player on the tee claimed that the comment caused him to stop his process and restart when he was aware of his rights and had breached no rule.  The rules official upheld the penalty.

If I see a fellow competitor about to break a rule I will say something to prevent the penalty if possible. But only if a rule is about to be broken. Other wise I was trained to keep my mouth shut on the course. Joekelly is right most of the better players I know prefer that you not advise them of rules or anything else golf related on the course. Nor do we want to hear how your changing your swing, grip, or clubs keep it to yourself. In competitive play if you have a situation you call your marker over and discuss how you are going to procede. If need be you both pull out the rule book and figure it out. In an extreme case you play 2 balls in note the scores down and check with the rules official before signing your card. I have seen more mid/high handicap players get hit with 2 strokes for the advice rule because they just couldn't keep their mouth shut.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

I have seen this happen at a tournament. The player on the tee turned around and said " No I'm replaying my shot thanks for the advice that will cost you 2 strokes" The player on the tee claimed that the comment caused him to stop his process and restart when he was aware of his rights and had breached no rule.  The rules official upheld the penalty.

Hmm, I hope I never play with such uptight FC and rules officials.

I bet it was not just a question "Is that a provisional?" led to this penalty. Same could then be said about "It sure is windy today". It could cause someone to "stop his process and restart".

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

You guys are missing key parts to the rule.

A player teeing up in front of the markers or more than 2 clubs behind would be in breach of the rule if they did play that shot. Stopping him from doing so would not be giving advice.

A player saying 'I'm going to hit another " has not breached any rule nor would a rule be broken if the player waits till everyone else has hit and silently spikes up another ball and hits it. The only time the rule would be broken would be when he/she finds the first one and wants to play that ball. Likewise if the player hit a provisional not being "virtually" certain that his ball was lost in a hazard then finds that ball in the hazard. He/she must abandon the provisional and take the proper steps based on the type of hazard.

So when your opponent says "I'm hitting another" they have not and are not about to violate any rules. And in fact have stated their intention as to how they are going to procede. When he/she plays the shot the ball is in play.

If they have stated their intent to play another ball and as he is in the process of setting up or addressing the ball and you ask " Is that a provisional" and it causes him to stop or have to begin his set up again you have breached the information rule at that moment since you altered their process of hitting the shot.

I have seen this happen at a tournament. The player on the tee turned around and said " No I'm replaying my shot thanks for the advice that will cost you 2 strokes" The player on the tee claimed that the comment caused him to stop his process and restart when he was aware of his rights and had breached no rule.  The rules official upheld the penalty.

If I see a fellow competitor about to break a rule I will say something to prevent the penalty if possible. But only if a rule is about to be broken. Other wise I was trained to keep my mouth shut on the course. Joekelly is right most of the better players I know prefer that you not advise them of rules or anything else golf related on the course. Nor do we want to hear how your changing your swing, grip, or clubs keep it to yourself. In competitive play if you have a situation you call your marker over and discuss how you are going to procede. If need be you both pull out the rule book and figure it out. In an extreme case you play 2 balls in note the scores down and check with the rules official before signing your card. I have seen more mid/high handicap players get hit with 2 strokes for the advice rule because they just couldn't keep their mouth shut.

Horsefeathers!!!  This is pure and total poppycock!  I'm a Colorado Golf Association Rules official and I've worked state level tournaments.  I've attended several USGA/PGA rules workshops.  No rules official in his right mind would do what you say happened.  There is no way possible to twist that into a rules breach.  The Rules state that "Information on the rules is not advice".  Regardless of whether the player is a fellow competitor or an opponent, he must make his intention clear or that second ball is the ball in play.

Sorry, but it is actually quite common to ask a player who hasn't made it clear, whether his second ball is a provisional ball or if he is taking the penalty.  And nobody with a grain of sense waits to ask until the player is in his backswing, but even that wouldn't be a penalty for a one time incident.  He says "I'm going to play another." and I ask immediately " Is that a provisional?"  It is NOT advice.  It is not helping him to play his next stroke.  If his intent is to play a provisional ball, then he must say something to that effect before he makes the stroke.  Most experienced tournament players, even at the club level like I was, will be very clear as to their intent, but players with less experience can easily stumble over this and incur a stroke and distance penalty when they only intended to play a provisional ball.  All I'm doing is asking for a clarification.  And contrary to what you say, I've never seen anyone get upset over it.

[Snowgolf]

@Luu5 It's not being uptight it's the rules period. If it's a casual round do what you want. I play practice rounds at times where I play 2 balls and hit shots from different places to work on my game. I also don't post that round. (and no i'm not holding up play) But in a competitive round ( Tournament, Match Play, or Money game) you have to follow the rules as they are written. The rule book is a must read before playing any type of competitive round. Many of the rules in there exist to help the golfer. Case in point the unplayable ball rule. I can't think of how many times i have seen 3rd and 4th flight players get DQ'd because they didn't read the rule sheet handed out at every tournament or took an illegal drop or were conceding puts in stroke play. I had one guy straight up ask me as I was at address what club I was hitting on a par 3.Yea I called him on it.

FYI do you know what the penalty is if you witness a rule violation and knowingly don't call it in a tournament. Hint Rule 1-3

The "sure is windy" or "should have hit a 5 iron" comments have been adressed in the decisions section of the USGA rules.

8-1/8

Comment About Club Selection After Stroke

Q. After playing a stroke, a player says: "I should have used a 5iron." Was the player in breach of Rule 8-1 ?

A. If the statement was made casually, there was no breach. If the statement was made to another player who had a shot to play from about the same position, there was a breach.

8-1/9

Misleading Statement About Club Selection

Q. A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?

A. A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.