On the tour, but never a winner. Would you accept?

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by Daniel Watkins

i said i would be totally miserable. What does Tim Clark have to do with anything? If you cant prove your point without using red herrings, then just dont try. Please

You really love the "red herring" term, don't you?

My point is that I don't believe that a person would believe themsleves to be "totally miserable" with 20 + million in the bank but no victories on the PGA Tour.

Of course I can't prove what you do or don't think, but I think you're taking a position to make yourself look good, knowing that you don't have to defend it in any other way than to say you "aren't wired" to accept anything less than victory or a shot at it.

Fortunately, most professional golfers are pragmatic enough to know their chances. They never stop believing/hoping, and accept whatever happens.

In short, I don't believe you, and think your grandstanding. That's fine. You can continue protest and I'll continue to think you are having yoirself on.

Some people say they wouldn't be unfaithful to their partner if they were given a billion dollars. Makes them feel good, plus they have the moral high ground but know that they'll never have their integrity tested. Lucky, eh?

[newtogolf]

The difference is every golfer on Tour plays to win and hopes to win, whether they do or not, doesn't temper their desire to try to win.  The scenario presented is, you know going into it you will never win.  I'm not sure how one pumps them self up to finish 2nd every day of their life.  I agree the money would be great, but wouldn't you want to know the feeling of the win, the accolades, the extra prize money and satisfaction that for at least one week you were the best golfer on the course that day once in your lifetime?

Originally Posted by Shorty

You really love the "red herring" term, don't you?

My point is that I don't believe that a person would believe themsleves to be "totally miserable" with 20 + million in the bank but no victories on the PGA Tour.

Of course I can't prove what you do or don't think, but I think you're taking a position to make yourself look good, knowing that you don't have to defend it in any other way than to say you "aren't wired" to accept anything less than victory or a shot at it.

Fortunately, most professional golfers are pragmatic enough to know their chances. They never stop believing/hoping, and accept whatever happens.

In short, I don't believe you, and think your grandstanding. That's fine. You can continue protest and I'll continue to think you are having yoirself on.

Some people say they wouldn't be unfaithful to their partner if they were given a billion dollars. Makes them feel good, plus they have the moral high ground but know that they'll never have their integrity tested. Lucky, eh?

[Daniel Watkins]

Originally Posted by Shorty

You really love the "red herring" term, don't you?

My point is that I don't believe that a person would believe themsleves to be "totally miserable" with 20 + million in the bank but no victories on the PGA Tour.

Of course I can't prove what you do or don't think, but I think you're taking a position to make yourself look good, knowing that you don't have to defend it in any other way than to say you "aren't wired" to accept anything less than victory or a shot at it.

Fortunately, most professional golfers are pragmatic enough to know their chances. They never stop believing/hoping, and accept whatever happens.

In short, I don't believe you, and think your grandstanding. That's fine. You can continue protest and I'll continue to think you are having yoirself on.

Some people say they wouldn't be unfaithful to their partner if they were given a billion dollars. Makes them feel good, plus they have the moral high ground but know that they'll never have their integrity tested. Lucky, eh?

I keep throwing it around because you kept using them ;)

Well, there doesn't seem to be any way for me to convince you i feel otherwise, so we will agree to disagree on this matter. Deal?

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by Daniel Watkins

I keep throwing it around because you kept using them ;)

Well, there doesn't seem to be any way for me to convince you i feel otherwise, so we will agree to disagree on this matter. Deal?

Yep.

[sean_miller]

Hockey players love to win. Some players take pay cuts or "home town discounts" to allow the team to sign or re-sign other key players. Ray Bourque, Nik Lidstrom, Pavel Datsyuk, Daniel and Henrik Sedin, Marian Hossa, a few Penguins, and the list goes on and on. But the new guys on the team still give it everything they have to be able to hoist the Stanley Cup. Even more inspirational when one considers that their salaries include the regular season only. They may have bonuses that kick in at certain points in the playoffs, but they're not necessarily drawing a salary.

That's all fine and good, but ask any of the 200+ teenagers drafted outside the top 10 in this weekend's NHL entry draft if they'd choose  1.) having a long financially prosperous playing career without ever getting to have their name engraved on the Stanley cup, or 2.) end their playing career right there on the spot. Thanks for coming, but you're done.

[NuclearMike]

Living the life of a pro golfer (at least one who makes a decent living) would likely be more fun than I'm having now, so I'd have to say yes.  Sure, I'm competitive but also pragmatic.  Being able to better provide for my family on a competitive PGA Tour golfer's income would ease the difficulty I might have with never winning.

[tiger187126]

Originally Posted by darkhunter139

Make a ton of money playing golf? Hell yea.

this is pretty much why i would say yes. not to mention the cool places you would go and things you would get to do. i understand why someone would say no though. i'm sure even at that level it must be mentally tough to try and understand why you're good enough to come in second, but never good enough to win and it probably compounds year after year.

i caddied for my grandfather during the st jude's pro/am a few years ago and he played with this guy:

http://www.pgatour.com/golfers/023325/vaughn-taylor/

i had never heard of him really, but couldn't have been a nicer guy and when you look at his record, he hasn't done anything spectacular for a tour pro, but the amount of money he pulls in annually (just from winnings i assume and not any endorsement deals or perks) it's just mind blowing.

he's played in 15 events this year, made 7 cuts, but has earned $330,000.

that's pretty nice for what, 44 days of tournament style golf?

(obviously i'm understating the practice and dedication it takes)

[x129]

Given the choice between winning 5 events on the nationwide tour and coming top 10 5 times on the PGA tour, I would take the PGA tour every day of the week even if the money was equal. As a competitor I want to face the best and lose than face weaker competition and win.

The difference is every golfer on Tour plays to win and hopes to win, whether they do or not, doesn't temper their desire to try to win.  The scenario presented is, you know going into it you will never win.  I'm not sure how one pumps them self up to finish 2nd every day of their life.  I agree the money would be great, but wouldn't you want to know the feeling of the win, the accolades, the extra prize money and satisfaction that for at least one week you were the best golfer on the course that day once in your lifetime?

[Malvern]

If it is all about the money and not winning which is the OPs premise, the money a multi year tour pro earns needs some perspective.

You can google up numerous articles on the PGA Tour's pension plan, there was an article indicating that Stuart Appelby (hardly a prolific winner) would retire with $200m after a 20 yr career, not sure on what compounded rates this was based.

Regardless, the rich get richer and continue to accumulate wealth, tax free.

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/news?slug=dw-pension090407

[Mattplusness]

Originally Posted by pixel5

So what you're saying is that I can make $1.5million a year by playing golf and avoid all of the interviews and paparazzi?

Why would anyone want that?

It sounds terrible.

[brocks]

If it is all about the money and not winning which is the OPs premise, the money a multi year tour pro earns needs some perspective. You can google up numerous articles on the PGA Tour's pension plan, there was an article indicating that Stuart Appelby (hardly a prolific winner) would retire with $200m after a 20 yr career, not sure on what compounded rates this was based. Regardless, the rich get richer and continue to accumulate wealth, tax free. [URL=http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/news?slug=dw-pension090407]http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/news?slug=dw-pension090407[/URL]

I'm not disputing that the PGA pension plan is VERY generous, but the author of that article assumes a 9% return, which had been unrealistic for reasonably safe investments for several years before the article was written, and is ridiculous now.

[Ernest Jones]

Late to the discussion, didn't read the whole thread but...HELL YES! I would happily do it for the same salary I make now, I mean c'mon, play golf and practice everyday and make a good living at it???? I spend WAY more than I can afford on golf as it is, to be able to do it professionally would be heaven.

[newtogolf]

I'm not arguing that point, in fact I agree 100%.  The point I made is that you go into your life as a PGA pro knowing that you can never win.  You'll face the best competition but never have the satisfaction of knowing you're the best of the best because the deal you cut says you can never win.

Originally Posted by x129

Given the choice between winning 5 events on the nationwide tour and coming top 10 5 times on the PGA tour, I would take the PGA tour every day of the week even if the money was equal. As a competitor I want to face the best and lose than face weaker competition and win.

[slodsm]

Personally, I'd do it in a heart beat without a second thought. To live comfortably and golf/fish as much as I want while still giving my kid everything she needs and a lot she doesn't and save for retirement, I need to make around 95k a year, anything after that I can safely waste :). As a "loser" on the PGA tour, I'd make a lot more, get to play golf at better courses, save an even larger chunk for retirement so I could retire on the Ca. Delta like I really want to, and my fetish for buying new gear/clubs would be satiated by people giving me new clubs/gear all the time.

Would winning be even better, sure, but I'm a realist and you don't take a leak on a great option because you want a fantastic option.

[x129]

I will have the satisfaction of knowing I did all I could to be the best. As I said it is a lot more fun to know that you gave it your all and came up short than to win because of mediocre competition.  To take your case to the extreme, would winning a pga event be enough? What if you only won the PGA (i.e. the weakest major).  Some of this comes down to you background of individual versus team sports. In individual sports you can have the satisfaction of performing well. In a team sport it is hard to enjoy yourself if your team loses. YMMV.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I'm not arguing that point, in fact I agree 100%.  The point I made is that you go into your life as a PGA pro knowing that you can never win.  You'll face the best competition but never have the satisfaction of knowing you're the best of the best because the deal you cut says you can never win.

[zipazoid]

I understand it's a hypothetical, the concept about knowing you'd never win a tournament, but I was just thinking how this could happen.

Like, let's say you got a 5 shot lead going into the last hole...do you purposely pump three balls in the water?

[brocks]

I understand it's a hypothetical, the concept about knowing you'd never win a tournament, but I was just thinking how this could happen. Like, let's say you got a 5 shot lead going into the last hole...do you purposely pump three balls in the water?

I thought the deal was you couldn't win, so you don't have to lose on purpose, you just always lose. If you *were* five up on the last hole, and knew you would somehow lose, the tension of waiting for the hammer to drop might take care of blowing the lead, even without supernatural influence. But it might be more interesting to have some kind of deal with the devil where it actually was voluntary. You agree to deliberately not win, in exchange for a guarantee of making millions of dollars every year (and unless the purses change drastically, that would ensure that you kept your card every year). In a deal like that, if you found yourself five up on the last hole, and you were tired of losing, you might just say screw it, I'm going to win this time, and break the agreement. What happens next is up to the devil you made the deal with. If you're lucky, you're just on your own from then on. More likely, you get leprosy of the duodenum, as somebody here [url=http://thesandtrap.com/t/58696/2012-us-open-at-olympic-club-discussion-thread/216#post_724569]recently wished[/url] on a player he didn't like.

[Wally Fairway]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The difference is every golfer on Tour plays to win and hopes to win, whether they do or not, doesn't temper their desire to try to win.  The scenario presented is, you know going into it you will never win.  I'm not sure how one pumps them self up to finish 2nd every day of their life.  I agree the money would be great, but wouldn't you want to know the feeling of the win, the accolades, the extra prize money and satisfaction that for at least one week you were the best golfer on the course that day once in your lifetime?

I think someone should directly ask this question to Sergio, but relate it to major championships .... oh wait they already did & he said he wouldn't win one; and yet he keeps playing.

Originally Posted by zipazoid

I understand it's a hypothetical, the concept about knowing you'd never win a tournament, but I was just thinking how this could happen.

Like, let's say you got a 5 shot lead going into the last hole...do you purposely pump three balls in the water?

I think that if you have the big lead you should finish the round and sign and incorrect scorecard - hopefully becoming a sympathy figure about being DQ'd in the only tournament that you ever "won".