What's the rush? Golf's obsession with slow play.

[caniac6]

Originally Posted by phan52

That's all fine and good if you are one of the first groups out. But if there are multiple foursomes in front of you playing at a decent 4 hour clip, nothing slows the rest of a golf course down more than a group playing through everybody.

We didn't slow the rest of the course. The groups on the back that we played through were only playing nine, and the group that started behind us on the first hole was, al least, three holes behind. I agree, that if you start behind a bunch of groups, 4 hours is not unreasonable.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by caniac6

Are you talking about walking or riding? I played in a threesome last summer that played in less than 3 hours. We were the first group, riding, two guy shooting in mid 70's, the other guy shot an 81. We played through two groups that started on the back, and the only time I felt like we were rushing,was when we were trying to get out of their way. We never had to look for a ball, we had a nice time playing together. We hit when we were ready, and didn't waste any time. We weren't trying to play fast, there wasn't anyone holding us up, and we were efficient.

Either way.  I've always been of the belief that, on average, there is little to no difference in speed between walking and riding, assuming a shared cart.  Even if you do it right, there is still some snaking around the course and backtracking to pick guys up so that extraneous stuff probably evens things out for the walkers who beeline from shot to shot.  On the other hand ... two golfers sharing the cart that are as good as you and your buddies, I get how that can be a lot faster.

I played a round with my wife a couple of months ago at a nice, empty course.  She is a beginner, and shot something like 140 (with a few uncounted whiffs and a couple of gimmes) so that obviously played a big part in our pace.  But, we never waited once (we rode), and allowed two singles to play through near the end, and finished in almost exactly 4 hours.  I also frequently play in a foursome with my dad, dad-in-law, and another friend at a relatively short, busy course.  That course does have a few short waits at par 3's, but it's never really bad, and we always walk and almost always finish in about 4 hours.  And, for the record, I am what I would consider (not compared to TSTers obviously) a fast player.  I am always ready when it's my turn (usually before - I frequently have to do a Keegan Bradley double take move on the putting green because I start to line up my putt immediately after the last guy then get distracted while he's tapping in or marking), I'm always parking my bag or cart on the correct side of the hole, etc etc.

I probably need to play a round on an empty course with a couple of really good golfers to fairly compare, because it sounds like the skill of the golfers might play a much bigger part in this whole thing than I expected.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Either way.  I've always been of the belief that, on average, there is little to no difference in speed between walking and riding, assuming a shared cart.  Even if you do it right, there is still some snaking around the course and backtracking to pick guys up so that extraneous stuff probably evens things out for the walkers who beeline from shot to shot.  On the other hand ... two golfers sharing the cart that are as good as you and your buddies, I get how that can be a lot faster.

I played a round with my wife a couple of months ago at a nice, empty course.  She is a beginner, and shot something like 140 (with a few uncounted whiffs and a couple of gimmes) so that obviously played a big part in our pace.  But, we never waited once (we rode), and allowed two singles to play through near the end, and finished in almost exactly 4 hours.  I also frequently play in a foursome with my dad, dad-in-law, and another friend at a relatively short, busy course.  That course does have a few short waits at par 3's, but it's never really bad, and we always walk and almost always finish in about 4 hours.  And, for the record, I am what I would consider (not compared to TSTers obviously) a fast player.  I am always ready when it's my turn (usually before - I frequently have to do a Keegan Bradley double take move on the putting green because I start to line up my putt immediately after the last guy then get distracted while he's tapping in or marking), I'm always parking my bag or cart on the correct side of the hole, etc etc.

I probably need to play a round on an empty course with a couple of really good golfers to fairly compare, because it sounds like the skill of the golfers might play a much bigger part in this whole thing than I expected.

I don't think that's the case at all. Some of the slowest players I know are very good players (they take forever on the greens, rreading putts from every conceivable angle). You sound like you are doing all the right things to keep pace. The main thing is to not fall behind the ggroup in front of you on a crowded course.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by phan52

I don't think that's the case at all. Some of the slowest players I know are very good players (they take forever on the greens, rreading putts from every conceivable angle). You sound like you are doing all the right things to keep pace. The main thing is to not fall behind the ggroup in front of you on a crowded course.

Oh certainly.  There are definitely good players who play slow.  I'm just saying that I don't understand how people can play as fast as so many on here claim, and that might be because they are the perfect combination of good and fast, and me and my playing partners are fast but not good.

Let's try some math here and break it down, cuz I'm a nerd! ...

Let's say 4 scratch golfers walking.  If the course is 7000 yds, I'm going to guess you are walking 9k total, and if your average walking speed is 4 mph, then that means you are traveling for a total of about 90 minutes.  If a really good golfer takes 20 seconds per shot (pulling that out of my butt so my calcs are for nothing more than my amusement at this point) and shoots 70, and there are 4 in this group, then they spent another 90 minutes actually hitting the ball.  That comes to a total of 3 hours for 4 scratch golfers walking ... seems reasonable.

If you were to change it up a little bit, say fast but crappy golfers who shoot 100 ... then your total is 3 hrs, 40 minutes.

Change it again to scratch golfers who are slow (lets say 40 seconds per shot) ... then you are at 4 hrs, 40 minutes.

Lastly, crappy golfers who are slow come in at ... 6 hours total.

Therefore, if my made up, crappy math is correct, then you are correct ... it's more important to play efficiently than well.  (Of course, the slow golfers will probably spend time looking for lost balls, and I didn't factor that in either)

[BuckeyeNut]

My regular weekend group has the perfect solution to slow play.......we get the first tee time.  LOL

Those who play later are asking for slow play troubles.   I should also add, that I occasionally join a weekday group of seniors aged 69-75-85.  Even when it's cart-path only, we finish in 3.5hrs tops.........(and they walk SLOW)  Think about that.......guys in their 70s-80's/cart-path only......and they still play in 3.5hrs.  How do you think they do it?   They surely aren't rushing..........

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

My regular weekend group has the perfect solution to slow play.......we get the first tee time.  LOL

I wish that theory would work here. It does not. The courses here send out players from hole 1 and hole 10 every 8 minutes staring at 7am up until 9:30am. Then there are no tee-times until 12noon. Then they repeat the process for the afternoon times. If you are the first group off hole number 1, you can't fly through and get to hole 10 before 9:30am. If you do, you will have to wait for the 9:00, 9:08, 9:16, 9:24 groups to tee-off before you can start on hole number 10. There is no point in being the first group out in the morning.

[AmazingWhacker]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Trust me, if you are pushing me on the road, then you are driving crazy.    Is it your contention that on a 2 lane road with no passing possible that anyone in your way is supposed to pull over and stop to let you by (or speed up and risk a citation), regardless of whether he is already doing or exceeding the speed limit?  If so then you are the one with issues, not him.

That's essentially what you are asking others to do on the golf course, and it's equally discourteous.  The point is that you need to use your head and some common sense when considering whether it makes sense to let another group play through.   A twosome coming up on a fourball with and open course ahead, then absolutely yes, I'd let them through.  Same scenario but with 4 groups in front of me before there is any gap in the flow, then no, I'm not going to let them slow things down any further than they already are.

Courtesy doesn't only apply to the fastest group.  Proper courtesy may be more appropriately applied to the greater number, sometimes at the expense of the few.  Lincoln still had it right "You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

No - my contention is that on any road - you should let other cars pass when it makes sense to do so.  The example I was thinking of was of a 4 lane road where drivers use the left lane simply because they choose to but it would also apply to a 2 lane road that was long and windy without many passing opportunities.  Whenever I would drive around Northern California - I would invariably get stuck behind an RV would not let me pass for long periods of time.  The cool ones will slow down a bit and pull over to let you go by.

Anyway - this isn't about driving, that was an analogy (perhaps a poor one).  In my opinion - for golf it's simple.  Holes ahead, let them play through.  It doesn't matter if you're playing a 3 hour round . . if there is a group pressing from behind and holes open ahead then let them play through.  If there are not holes open ahead then it's a moot point - there'd be nowhere to go.

In the round I was referring to in my first post in this thread - there were at least 3 open holes ahead of us and the course was totally stacked up behind us as far as I could see.

[BuckeyeNut]

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

I wish that theory would work here. It does not. The courses here send out players from hole 1 and hole 10 every 8 minutes staring at 7am up until 9:30am. Then there are no tee-times until 12noon. Then they repeat the process for the afternoon times.

If you are the first group off hole number 1, you can't fly through and get to hole 10 before 9:30am. If you do, you will have to wait for the 9:00, 9:08, 9:16, 9:24 groups to tee-off before you can start on hole number 10. There is no point in being the first group out in the morning.

Ugggggggg.....the dreaded "WAVE" .............

I know a course that does that, and I refuse to play there!!!!!!!

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Ugggggggg.....the dreaded "WAVE" ............. I know a course that does that, and I refuse to play there!!!!!!!

Yeah, almost every course in this area "double tee's" like that in order to maximize the number of morning (prime) tee-times. It makes sense in the busy season as most golfers prefer to get a morning round in so they can hit the pool or beach in the afternoon, or so they can squeeze in another 18 in the afternoon. It does however make it impossible to play a quick early morning round, as the entire course is quite backed up by 8:30am.

[BuckeyeNut]

Yea...that sukks.  during prime-time summer, our first tee time is 630am.  My regular weekend group is usually finished by 930am.   I love playing golf as much as the next guy, but I like playing, getting done....and having an entire day to do other things.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuckeyeNut

My regular weekend group has the perfect solution to slow play.......we get the first tee time.  LOL

I wish that theory would work here. It does not. The courses here send out players from hole 1 and hole 10 every 8 minutes staring at 7am up until 9:30am. Then there are no tee-times until 12noon. Then they repeat the process for the afternoon times.

If you are the first group off hole number 1, you can't fly through and get to hole 10 before 9:30am. If you do, you will have to wait for the 9:00, 9:08, 9:16, 9:24 groups to tee-off before you can start on hole number 10. There is no point in being the first group out in the morning.

First mistake here is sending groups at 8 minute intervals.  That's enough time to clear the fairway on the first hole, but usually starts to back up by the 3rd or 4th, and by mid morming, the entire course is going to be playing slow.  8 minutes is at least one minute too fast (I've found that a 9 minute interval is the minimum for a comfortable pace for a fourball to play with some, but minimal waiting on a busy day), and a more comfortable pace which I've had on most upscale courses is 10 minutes.  We don't usually think of 2 minutes as a big deal, but in the spacing of groups on the course it makes a huge difference.  Unfortunately it also makes a big difference in revenues over the course of a season, so only courses with upscale green fees (or private courses) can afford to separate groups that much.

My home course stretched the limit by alternating 9 and 8 minutes for the first 3 hours, then going to 9 minutes for the rest of the day.  Some days the pace stayed good, but on others one or 2 slow groups starting before 8 AM would bog things down and it wouldn't really loosen up until the load lightened after noon (still most rounds were under 5 hours even on the busiest days, but over the 4:20 that the course requested as a pace of play).  They also put out 9 hole golfers on the back 9 for the first hour and a half each day, and it was possible for additional 9 hole players to walk on at the discretion of the starter if the first group of 18 hole players had not teed off on 9 yet.  We starters were very careful about sending off late 9 hole groups, as we were careful to give 18 hole players the right of way on 10.  So on a busy morning, by racing around the front 9 you ran the risk of just running up behind someone on the back.  This was a busy public municipal layout which worked hard on balancing a good golfing experience while still trying to maximize revenues.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

I wish that theory would work here. It does not. The courses here send out players from hole 1 and hole 10 every 8 minutes staring at 7am up until 9:30am. Then there are no tee-times until 12noon. Then they repeat the process for the afternoon times.

If you are the first group off hole number 1, you can't fly through and get to hole 10 before 9:30am. If you do, you will have to wait for the 9:00, 9:08, 9:16, 9:24 groups to tee-off before you can start on hole number 10. There is no point in being the first group out in the morning.

I learned that the hard way last month when me and my buddies went out to Myrtle for some golf.  The first two days we started on #10, which made me realize that getting the first tee times were no good.  The third day we were playing a scramble to speed up play and had an early tee time, and had to wait on #10.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

First mistake here is sending groups at 8 minute intervals.  That's enough time to clear the fairway on the first hole, but usually starts to back up by the 3rd or 4th, and by mid morming, the entire course is going to be playing slow.  8 minutes is at least one minute too fast (I've found that a 9 minute interval is the minimum for a comfortable pace for a fourball to play with some, but minimal waiting on a busy day), and a more comfortable pace which I've had on most upscale courses is 10 minutes.  We don't usually think of 2 minutes as a big deal, but in the spacing of groups on the course it makes a huge difference.  Unfortunately it also makes a big difference in revenues over the course of a season, so only courses with upscale green fees (or private courses) can afford to separate groups that much.

I agree with you 100% here.  If given the choice, I would always take the course that allows 10 minutes in between tee-times.  But obviously the courses are trying to maximize revenue, especially in the busy season, and will sacrifice the players enjoyment of the round, in order to squeeze in a few extra tee-times.

My guess is that 8 minute spacing is worth tens of thousands in revenue to the course as opposed to 10 minute spacing.  And unfortunately, that is all they are worried about.

[meenman]

I agree with you 100% here.  If given the choice, I would always take the course that allows 10 minutes in between tee-times.  But obviously the courses are trying to maximize revenue, especially in the busy season, and will sacrifice the players enjoyment of the round, in order to squeeze in a few extra tee-times.  My guess is that 8 minute spacing is worth tens of thousands in revenue to the course as opposed to 10 minute spacing.  And unfortunately, that is all they are worried about.

We have alternated 7 and 8 minute double tee times for years and it has always been a 4:00 to 4:15 round on weekend mornings. Probably the difference between a private and public course - in a private setting, there is peer pressure to not be the slow group on the course. I have played on other courses with 10 minute intervals and have never seen a group in front of or in back of us,

[phan52]

Originally Posted by meenman

We have alternated 7 and 8 minute double tee times for years and it has always been a 4:00 to 4:15 round on weekend mornings. Probably the difference between a private and public course - in a private setting, there is peer pressure to not be the slow group on the course.

I have played on other courses with 10 minute intervals and have never seen a group in front of or in back of us,

That is one of the many reasons to play at a private course. We have ten minute intervals when we have tee times, but we rarely have tee times. Mostly it is, you're up when the group in front reaches the first green. That is almost always around 10 minutes.

First tee time is 7:00 AM, and players are welcome to start on 10 if they wish, but they can't go over there past 8:45. If you go off 10 and end up holding anybody up who started on 1, you have to step aside.

[shihtappens]

3-1/2 hours would be a long time to spend with the REAL Bill Murray, never mind that guy that can-and-will mis-quote every single line in Caddy Shack (some more than once) and then laugh like a hyena on crack, each time. (No one say "Tin Cup". No one.) When it gets to five hours of four guys mindlessly repeating, "nice shot" and the continuous mantra of the obvious (shoulda hit it a little harder...get left!...startin to rain...etc.) it is surprising that there are not more episodes of Law & Order based on golf homicides.

[JonMA1]

This may seem obvious, but better players play faster. I don't mean because they take fewer strokes. It seems like they address the ball and take the shot. They don't have some time consuming pre-shot routine or stand around talking about it or mull over which club to take, etc. Some of the poorer players I've observed seem to have a more methodical approach.

I was behind a couple one morning. The woman had this routine where she would stand behind the ball, hold her club up vertically with her arm extended - I assume to align her shot with a tree or something. She would stand there for a good 15 seconds, take a practice swing, address the ball, and then take the shot. She did this on every single shot and she was deliberately slow.

I wonder if it's partly because they've been taught to do this by instructors, you know, "take your time and have the same exact pre-shot routine".

Maybe by the time a player gets to be good, they have streamlined the entire process. They know what they need to do and they simply execute the shot and move on.

[Golfingdad]

This may seem obvious, but better players play faster. I don't mean because they take fewer strokes. It seems like they address the ball and take the shot. They don't have some time consuming pre-shot routine or stand around talking about it or mull over which club to take, etc. Some of the poorer players I've observed seem to have a more methodical approach.

I was behind a couple one morning. The woman had this routine where she would stand behind the ball, hold her club up vertically with her arm extended - I assume to align her shot with a tree or something. She would stand there for a good 15 seconds, take a practice swing, address the ball, and then take the shot. She did this on every single shot and she was deliberately slow.

I wonder if it's partly because they've been taught to do this by instructors, you know, "take your time and have the same exact pre-shot routine".

Maybe by the time a player gets to be good, they have streamlined the entire process. They know what they need to do and they simply execute the shot and move on.

It may SEEM obvious, but it's not obvious, because its not true.  Neither is the opposite.  There are good players who play fast, good players who play slow, and, likewise, there are both fast and slow hackers.

Some do exactly as you suggest, however, there are also a lot of better players that just take waaaaaaay too long reading putts, thinking about a shot, pre-shot routines, talking, etc, etc.

A bad player who also plays slow may stand out as slowER because he also has the misfortune of taking more shots, but there are all kinds of slow-ass decent players out there.