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Golfer Attacked for Slow Play


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Originally Posted by dak4n6

You. Are. Wrong.

Most slow play is caused not by people who are deliberately lolligagging because they feel entitled as you say, but because:

a) they suck

b) they are not knowledgeable of the many subtle ways to play efficiently due to either being beginners or just casual golfers

c) a synergistic combination of a) and b)

Look, I have been playing 25 yrs, and I have observed that most slow play comes from a). How the hell are you going to get someone who shoots a 130 and loses 14 balls to play a 3.5 hr round?? You can't exclude bad or ignorant players from playing golf, so just relax and enjoy your round regardless of the pace.

I agree. I don't see people out there kicking their feet up. I see new golfers playing from the wrong tees and spending too much time looking for errant balls and lining up putts for triple, quad or worse like they're Ben Crane. Typically when this happens there is at least 2 of them in the group. It's best to grin and bear it even if it's eating you up on the inside. Everyone starts at the bottom. Those of us that have been at it a while probably did it in jr golf where it was excusable before moving on to the big course after developing some skill. I don't always have time to wait on slow folks. But I'd prefer to do that rather than making a new golfer feel bad about what they are doing.

Most let me by when there is a legit chance to pass them. Some are just scrappy enough to stay within the sights of the group ahead. Some days are just slow out there because the course has heavy traffic. That's why I play alone. I go at off-peak times when the course is empty so I can zip through my round and get back to what is important, working, blech.

Dave :-)

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Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I enjoy my time on the course. I just enjoy it more if I'm not being inconvenienced by thoughtless oafs who don't understand that their unnecessarily slow play is inconveniencing every group behind them.

Originally Posted by dak4n6

You. Are. Wrong.

Most slow play is caused not by people who are deliberately lolligagging because they feel entitled as you say, but because:

a) they suck

b) they are not knowledgeable of the many subtle ways to play efficiently due to either being beginners or just casual golfers

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I agree. I don't see people out there kicking their feet up. I see new golfers playing from the wrong tees and spending too much time looking for errant balls and lining up putts for triple, quad or worse like they're Ben Crane.

I don't believe your arguments are as different as you think.  There may not be people kicking their feet up and taking cat naps in between shots, but I think the golfers who suck , and like to line up putts for quad like Ben Crane , are being thoughtless oafs .  It may be partially because they don't know any better, but I would tend to lean towards them feeling entitled in a "I paid my money, I'll take all the time I want" or "I had to wait for the guys in front of me, so you can wait for me" type of attitude.

(Certainly not the only cause of slow play, but one factor)

More often than not, when I am playing slow golf and waiting, I don't see who the slow group in front of me is.  Everybody is waiting, so while it is certainly on the players to play faster, I think its more the courses' fault for tee times too close together.  Just like on our Socal freeways every morning; the traffic is not caused by slow cars way up ahead  (not talking about when there are accidents, just typical congestion), it's caused because there are way too many cars on the road.

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I still lean more towards the they just don't know any better phenomenon. One might argue that they are being oafish because they don't care to learn any better (e.g., by visiting TST and learning about the game).

Once in a while I do get behind a group that does look like they golf regularly, but they are just out there socializing and having a great time chatting while they all drive en mass to each ball, etc, but that is pretty rare.

95% of the time when I am behind a slow group, it is because 50% of their shots are in the woods or the other side of the county.

Speaking of learning how to play efficiently, I guess this is good motivation to a start a thread so that beginners, visitors, and lurkers can become edgumacated..

dak4n6

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Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I enjoy my time on the course. I just enjoy it more if I'm not being inconvenienced by thoughtless oafs who don't understand that their unnecessarily slow play is inconveniencing every group behind them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dak4n6

You. Are. Wrong.

Most slow play is caused not by people who are deliberately lolligagging because they feel entitled as you say, but because:

a) they suck

b) they are not knowledgeable of the many subtle ways to play efficiently due to either being beginners or just casual golfers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I agree. I don't see people out there kicking their feet up. I see new golfers playing from the wrong tees and spending too much time looking for errant balls and lining up putts for triple, quad or worse like they're Ben Crane.

I don't believe your arguments are as different as you think.  There may not be people kicking their feet up and taking cat naps in between shots, but I think the golfers who suck, and like to line up putts for quad like Ben Crane, are being thoughtless oafs.

Exactly. Thank you. I never made any distinction between whether slow players are wasting time on purpose vs wasting time because they don't know any better. Either way, they're wasting time unnecessarily.

Originally Posted by dak4n6

Look, I have been playing 25 yrs, and I have observed that most slow play comes from a). How the hell are you going to get someone who shoots a 130 and loses 14 balls to play a 3.5 hr round??

You educate them in the fine art of picking up and going to the next hole if they're not keeping up with the group in front of them.

Bill

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Originally Posted by sacm3bill

You educate them in the fine art of picking up and going to the next hole if they're not keeping up with the group in front of them.

So bad golfers are not allowed to keep score and finish out their holes?

dak4n6

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Originally Posted by teamroper60

Statistically speaking, the average time for an 18 hole round of golf is 4-4.5 hours.   As long as the round is completed within that time frame, nobody has a right to complain about the pace of play.

Anyone who expects others to play at a faster than the average pace, simply because they don't have 4.5 hours to spend, is just as rude as people who play slower than average.   If someone doesn't have 4.5 hours to spend on the golf course, perhaps they should either play 9 (if that is an option) or wait until a day when they do.

Originally Posted by teamroper60

Not exactly a good comparison.  Distracted driving is a hazard that can lead to death or serious physical injury.   A group taking 4.75 hours to complete 18 holes of golf does not in and of itself, lead to either one.

Most of the courses I have played tell you right up front that the expected pace is 4-4.5 hours.   Players meeting that pace are not wrong, regardless of whether you think they are wasting time or not.  Asking or expecting them to play faster just because you want to is.

Bingo.... a voice of sanity.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

The point you are missing is that just because something is the norm, it doesn't mean it's necessarily good.  Just because courses are setting expectations for a given pace (which they are forced to do because so many golfers are slow), doesn't mean that pace couldn't be or shouldn't be better. Your failure to see that is indicative of the problem.

No, you fail to realize that your desires don't supersede those of the majority.  Just because it's possible to play faster doesn't make it your right to do so (the guys I played with most often could play in 4 hours or less as a fivesome - that didn't mean that we hit into slower groups out of frustration).  That 4-4½ hour norm exists because the majority of golfers play 18 holes in a fourball format at about that pace.  There is a minority set which plays faster, and another minority set which plays slower - they form the ends of the bell curve.  In the US, and a great many other countries, the minority doesn't rule.

If that doesn't work for you, then you better find a course with stricter policy or one that gets less play so you can play on a nearly empty course.  Of course the one that gets less play will have a smaller revenue base, thus fewer amenities, maybe not the same quality of golf, but you only seem to want speed.

Originally Posted by teamroper60

I understand the concept that golf could be played faster than 4-4.5.   What I am saying (and apparently you and others are not getting) is, that asking others to conform to what your (and I mean that generically, not specifically you)  pace of play is, is just as rude as what slow players are been accused of being...

Rocket Man says he can play 18 in 2-2.5 hours.   I can (and do) play 18 in under 2, so compared to me, he is slow.   Yet, if I came up behind him, I would not get bent out of shape about it.   It is what it is.    If I don't have the time to play at what is considered a normal pace (or in that case, the pace he is playing), I need to adjust how many holes I am playing, not expect him to speed up to MY pace of play...

And regardless of what you may think, courses set tee times based on what the norms are.   Just because those norms don't fit your (or my) criteria, doesn't mean they are wrong.    Your failure to see that is indicative of someone who doesn't understand the concept that the world does not revolve around any one person's time table.  If that time table is slower than yours (or mine or anyone else in particular), tough.  You (or I or whomever) need to make the adjustment, not the other way around.

Golf courses, particularly public access courses, cater to the money.  If the norm is 4½ hours, then that will be their policy, and that is what they will ask players to conform to, because it will satisfy the greatest number of paying customers.

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Rick

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Quote:

No, you fail to realize that your desires don't supersede those of the majority.  Just because it's possible to play faster doesn't make it your right to do so (the guys I played with most often could play in 4 hours or less as a fivesome - that didn't mean that we hit into slower groups out of frustration).  That 4-4½ hour norm exists because the majority of golfers play 18 holes in a fourball format at about that pace.  There is a minority set which plays faster, and another minority set which plays slower - they form the ends of the bell curve.  In the US, and a great many other countries, the minority doesn't rule.

If that doesn't work for you, then you better find a course with stricter policy or one that gets less play so you can play on a nearly empty course.  Of course the one that gets less play will have a smaller revenue base, thus fewer amenities, maybe not the same quality of golf, but you only seem to want speed

Bravo! Thank you Mr. Fourputt!

dak4n6

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Originally Posted by dak4n6

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

You educate them in the fine art of picking up and going to the next hole if they're not keeping up with the group in front of them.

So bad golfers are not allowed to keep score and finish out their holes?


Exactly. Not if they're inconveniencing the groups behind them by playing slower than the groups in front of them.  Picking up if you're falling behind is common advice to beginners (often you'll hear it as "pick up and move on once you've reached double par"), and a common practice on the course.  I find it hard to believe that with all the campaigns against slow play in both the amateur and professional golf world that you've never heard of this.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

The point you are missing is that just because something is the norm, it doesn't mean it's necessarily good.  Just because courses are setting expectations for a given pace (which they are forced to do because so many golfers are slow), doesn't mean that pace couldn't be or shouldn't be better. Your failure to see that is indicative of the problem.

No, you fail to realize that your desires don't supersede those of the majority.  Just because it's possible to play faster doesn't make it your right to do so (the guys I played with most often could play in 4 hours or less as a fivesome - that didn't mean that we hit into slower groups out of frustration).  That 4-4½ hour norm exists because the majority of golfers play 18 holes in a fourball format at about that pace.  There is a minority set which plays faster, and another minority set which plays slower - they form the ends of the bell curve.  In the US, and a great many other countries, the minority doesn't rule.

I'll summarize my stance, then I'm done with this thread: The norms are what they are because many people are slower than they would be if they were either more considerate, or more educated. Slow golf is caused by people who put *their* desire to play at whatever pace they want (whether willfully or through ignorance) ahead of the desires of everyone they're inconveniencing. I never condoned hitting into slow groups, but I guess you have to twist my words in order to make a point that otherwise could not be logically made.

Bill

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When the facts of the case come out, I think the groups were BEHIND Mr. Rappleye.  He drank A LOT of booze somewhere and then decided to pop out and practice on the 18th green.  He impeded the play of others coming up to the 18th green with his drunken shenanigans which landed him in the slammer.

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Originally Posted by dak4n6

So bad golfers are not allowed to keep score and finish out their holes?

I'm fine with that. If you're going to suck at golf, at least suck quickly. I walked quickly and had about a four-second pre-shot routine when I was first taking up the game because I didn't want to hold anyone up at all.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

No, you fail to realize that your desires don't supersede those of the majority.  Just because it's possible to play faster doesn't make it your right to do so (the guys I played with most often could play in 4 hours or less as a fivesome - that didn't mean that we hit into slower groups out of frustration).  That 4-4½ hour norm exists because the majority of golfers play 18 holes in a fourball format at about that pace.  There is a minority set which plays faster, and another minority set which plays slower - they form the ends of the bell curve.  In the US, and a great many other countries, the minority doesn't rule.

The problem there is that the minority DOES rule. A single slow group will hold up the entire golf course, and the effects will still be seen after they've finished their 18 holes. So if everyone played in under four hours, we'd all be happier, but a single group who stretches that to 4:45 pretty much dooms every group after that the rest of the day to a 4:45 round.

It's like cars on a one-lane highway. If they all go 65 MPH, there's no problem at all and everyone goes along smoothly. If one car freaks out about the car in front being five seconds ahead of them, and flashes their brake lights, the ripple effect slows down every car and propagates like a wave right on back, for miles. One car that can't maintain a smooth 65 MPH affects every car after it, and obviously, one person not comfortable driving near a barrier and going only 50 MPH caps everyone's speed at 50, too.

Minorities do rule when it comes to pace of play, and that's the problem. I'd much rather see that bell curve be a very, very, very small one, or at least one that favors playing in under four hours for 95% of golfers, with the 5% that are slower at least letting people through.

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Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Exactly. Not if they're inconveniencing the groups behind them by playing slower than the groups in front of them.  Picking up if you're falling behind is common advice to beginners (often you'll hear it as "pick up and move on once you've reached double par"), and a common practice on the course.  I find it hard to believe that with all the campaigns against slow play in both the amateur and professional golf world that you've never heard of this.

I'll summarize my stance, then I'm done with this thread: The norms are what they are because many people are slower than they would be if they were either more considerate, or more educated. Slow golf is caused by people who put *their* desire to play at whatever pace they want (whether willfully or through ignorance) ahead of the desires of everyone they're inconveniencing. I never condoned hitting into slow groups, but I guess you have to twist my words in order to make a point that otherwise could not be logically made.

I didn't mean to suggest that you hit into anyone - it was mentioned by someone else earlier and I just added that into a general reply.  You just happened to be the one quoted.  My apologies for that.

The point is that most recreational golfers are out for a relaxing round of golf.  For most bogey golfers, less than four hours (for a fourball) is rushing, not relaxing.  More than half of the golfers on a given public course are bogey golfers or worse.  As long as they stay within the pace of play policies laid down by the course, they have the right to play at a pace which is comfortable for them.  They don't have the right to play slower than that, but they also don't deserve to be pushed and hassled by faster players either.

Originally Posted by iacas

The problem there is that the minority DOES rule. A single slow group will hold up the entire golf course, and the effects will still be seen after they've finished their 18 holes. So if everyone played in under four hours, we'd all be happier, but a single group who stretches that to 4:45 pretty much dooms every group after that the rest of the day to a 4:45 round.

It's like cars on a one-lane highway. If they all go 65 MPH, there's no problem at all and everyone goes along smoothly. If one car freaks out about the car in front being five seconds ahead of them, and flashes their brake lights, the ripple effect slows down every car and propagates like a wave right on back, for miles. One car that can't maintain a smooth 65 MPH affects every car after it, and obviously, one person not comfortable driving near a barrier and going only 50 MPH caps everyone's speed at 50, too.

Minorities do rule when it comes to pace of play, and that's the problem. I'd much rather see that bell curve be a very, very, very small one, or at least one that favors playing in under four hours for 95% of golfers, with the 5% that are slower at least letting people through.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I was more aiming my replies at Sacm3bill thinking that he has the right to play faster and damn the majority.  The pendulum swings both ways.

Rick

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It is what my college roommate used to call a closed loop system. More like an assembly line than a highway in that step 4 can not be started until step three is completed. On a highway, simply tapping your breaks may cause everyone behind you to slow down and avoid closing the gap between cars too fast. You might see no real change in your arrival time but could have caused all those behind you to be late. 200 cars back, the wait could be substantial. On a full golf course, there is not much if any gap between groups and the slowest group is the pace of those behind. The waiting on the group in front is the same as the pass of the first slow group.

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Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Yeah, I know courses set tee times based on the norms. I said it in my previous post.  My point was that it's unfortunate that the norms are so much worse than they should be.

So you think everyone should play at whatever pace they want because there is no "right" pace. I disagree. I think you would too if you really thought about it. Is 6 hours too long? What about 8? Obviously there's a pace at which, if someone is playing slower than that pace, any sane person would agree that it would "too slow".  For me, and just about every other reasonable person out there, if you're taking 5 hours, you're too slow. All I'm asking is people not wast time.  I'm not asking anyone to rush, just don't wast time. If everyone did that, rounds would not be 5 hours, they'd be closer to 3.5 (as they are in Great Britain for example, where golfers have more respect for the game and for fellow golfers than they do here in the US), and the majority of people would be happier.  But that will never happen because there are too many people like you, who think it's ok for people to take as long as they want to play a round of golf, and that I'm being rude by expecting them to keep a good pace.

I enjoy my time on the course. I just enjoy it more if I'm not being inconvenienced by thoughtless oafs who don't understand that their unnecessarily slow play is inconveniencing every group behind them.

Geez!!  Is this high school?   I did not say I thought people should be able to play at whatever pace they want, so I will thank you to stop exaggerating what I said in an effort to make your point look better.

I said that if people are playing at the average pace of play of 4-4.5 hours/18 holes , then chastising them for not playing faster, is rude.   I stand by that.

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I used to golf with a guy who is horribly slow. Like, thinks he needs to tell a 4 min story before he sets up, then waggles 40 times, then backs off at any little sound as if it will matter, resets, waggles another 30 tims and then duffs it 20 yards...on every hole. I called never again when it took 5 hrs to walk 9. I wanted to kill him. But I didnt find the need to hit him with a club lol

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I know I said I was done, but need to defend myself against some mischaracterizing that's going on.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

The problem there is that the minority DOES rule. A single slow group will hold up the entire golf course, and the effects will still be seen after they've finished their 18 holes. So if everyone played in under four hours, we'd all be happier, but a single group who stretches that to 4:45 pretty much dooms every group after that the rest of the day to a 4:45 round.

It's like cars on a one-lane highway. If they all go 65 MPH, there's no problem at all and everyone goes along smoothly. If one car freaks out about the car in front being five seconds ahead of them, and flashes their brake lights, the ripple effect slows down every car and propagates like a wave right on back, for miles. One car that can't maintain a smooth 65 MPH affects every car after it, and obviously, one person not comfortable driving near a barrier and going only 50 MPH caps everyone's speed at 50, too.

Minorities do rule when it comes to pace of play, and that's the problem. I'd much rather see that bell curve be a very, very, very small one, or at least one that favors playing in under four hours for 95% of golfers, with the 5% that are slower at least letting people through.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I was more aiming my replies at Sacm3bill thinking that he has the right to play faster and damn the majority.  The pendulum swings both ways.

I don't think I ever said or implied I had the right to play faster - if I did that's not what I meant. I don't think I ever said or implied "damn the majority" - if I did that's not what I meant.

My only point, which I thought was clear in my very first post in this thread, is that just because the majority of people do something (or do something in a certain way), it doesn't necessarily make it right.

Originally Posted by teamroper60

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Yeah, I know courses set tee times based on the norms. I said it in my previous post.  My point was that it's unfortunate that the norms are so much worse than they should be.

So you think everyone should play at whatever pace they want because there is no "right" pace. I disagree. I think you would too if you really thought about it. Is 6 hours too long? What about 8? Obviously there's a pace at which, if someone is playing slower than that pace, any sane person would agree that it would "too slow".  For me, and just about every other reasonable person out there, if you're taking 5 hours, you're too slow. All I'm asking is people not wast time.  I'm not asking anyone to rush, just don't wast time. If everyone did that, rounds would not be 5 hours, they'd be closer to 3.5 (as they are in Great Britain for example, where golfers have more respect for the game and for fellow golfers than they do here in the US), and the majority of people would be happier.  But that will never happen because there are too many people like you, who think it's ok for people to take as long as they want to play a round of golf, and that I'm being rude by expecting them to keep a good pace.

I enjoy my time on the course. I just enjoy it more if I'm not being inconvenienced by thoughtless oafs who don't understand that their unnecessarily slow play is inconveniencing every group behind them.

Geez!!  Is this high school?   I did not say I thought people should be able to play at whatever pace they want, so I will thank you to stop exaggerating what I said in an effort to make your point look better.

I said that if people are playing at the average pace of play of 4-4.5 hours/18 holes, then chastising them for not playing faster, is rude.   I stand by that.

I don't think I ever said or implied that I have ever chastised someone for playing a 4-4.5 hour round - if I did that's not what I meant.

Regarding what *you* said or didn't say, at one point you said, "Just because those norms don't fit your (or my) criteria, doesn't mean they are wrong."  At face value that seemed like you're saying, "We cannot set criteria for what pace of play is right or wrong".

Now you've clarified that you *do* think it's wrong to play at whatever pace you want, if that pace is slower than a certain value, just as I do. The only difference is, you (and Fourputt) are basing "rightness" on what the current norm/average is. I'm basing it on what it *could* be if more people were more considerate about how much time they're wasting. As proof of what it *could* be, again I refer you to the pace of play in Great Britain. I'm not saying we have to match their 3.5 hour rounds. The problem though is we experience 5 hour rounds so often that when we get a 4-4.5 hour round we think, "Wow, that was a great pace of play!" So I'm just saying, our standards for a good pace of play are too low, and they're too low because so many people don't know or don't care that they could be playing much more quickly (while still not rushing - just not wasting so much time.)

Bill

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It's the courses job to ensure that all groups maintain whatever the published pace is, whether it be 4 or 4.5 hours.  If the front group is keeping that pace and everyone is keeping pace with the group in front of them then it's not reasonable to expect to go to such a course and play in 3 hours unless you're the lead group.

I don't want to spend all day on the course but I also don't want to be pushed or hit into  the entire time by a guy who wants to finish a round in 3 hours when the course pace is 4.5 hours and I'm keeping pace with the group in front of me.

Joe Paradiso

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One of the places I play is pretty strict. They have actual pace of play clocks on each tee. The rangers there will ask to see your receipt to see if you are on pace. Others are so loose you rarely see ranger and if you do they are in the weeds looking for balls. I expect different things based on how much the green fees are.

Dave :-)

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Originally Posted by newtogolf

It's the courses job to ensure that all groups maintain whatever the published pace is, whether it be 4 or 4.5 hours.  If the front group is keeping that pace and everyone is keeping pace with the group in front of them then it's not reasonable to expect to go to such a course and play in 3 hours unless you're the lead group.

I don't want to spend all day on the course but I also don't want to be pushed or hit into  the entire time by a guy who wants to finish a round in 3 hours when the course pace is 4.5 hours and I'm keeping pace with the group in front of me.

Interesting, that part I've bolded: If the lead group can finish in 3 hours, theoretically then why couldn't every one else?

And before I somehow get blamed for doing such things, for the record I do not engage in nor condone pushing people or hitting into them. I'm really a much nicer guy than I appear on the internet.

Bill

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