Golfer Attacked for Slow Play

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

You keep defending your position by citing the "norm", without considering the possibility that the norm is what it is only because of the "me first" type of behavior that causes 4.5 hour rounds when they could be 3.5.  Can you at least acknowledge that possibility?

The norm is what it is because it's most comfortable for the majority.  It's not because they are dawdling, it's because that is what is the most comfortable pace for the greatest number of players.

And I think the norm is what it is because courses are being regularly backed up from one or two groups per day unnecessarily dawdling. I'll agree to disagree.

[bamagrad03]

What I fail to understand, as someone who's totally new to golf, is why more bad golfers don't just pick the ball up. If it's slow because everyone is slow, that's one thing. But if you're on pace to hit a 150, picking one up here and there isn't going to matter.

When you're that bad, and that new, if you are holding people up, you need to either adjust your pace or pick one up every once in a while. Because, when you're THAT BAD, playing golf is more about practice and introducing yourself to the game anyway - not recording a detailed score.

People shouldn't have to suffer because you're learning. You can play as slow as you want on the driving range.

[Valleygolfer]

The problem is not the average, it is the group that is having the 6.5 hour round. My experience is either a group of tourists that are goofing around, drinking and taking more than one shot off of the tee and then chasing down all those balls and being extremely noisy or behind someone who does not have correct etiquette and takes extra time practicing and putting on busy days.

I know some people can not allot that much time to play and no one plans to be in these slow play situations. The club needs to be more proactive in moving people along at my track IMHO because I have played behind a number of very slow people lately. I still put up with it because I live in a resort area. The last group was a foursome (two men and two women) that would play slow, hit short and have conversations sitting in their carts not moving after putting out. I don't think they even knew each other when they started playing but they were like best pals after the round was over. They were still chatting on the cart path when we hit onto 18 green. They were shaking hands and saying how nice it was to have met them.

As a player we really have no right to judge how fast people need to play but request the rangers to time a group. If it is excessively slow, let them hit the guy with a golf club.

[dak4n6]

Originally Posted by bamagrad03

What I fail to understand, as someone who's totally new to golf, is why more bad golfers don't just pick the ball up. If it's slow because everyone is slow, that's one thing. But if you're on pace to hit a 150, picking one up here and there isn't going to matter.

When you're that bad, and that new, if you are holding people up, you need to either adjust your pace or pick one up every once in a while. Because, when you're THAT BAD, playing golf is more about practice and introducing yourself to the game anyway - not recording a detailed score.

People shouldn't have to suffer because you're learning. You can play as slow as you want on the driving range.

What about if you shoot in the 120s? The 110s? At what point will you 'allow' players to keep score? Back in the day I played many rounds in the 90s where I had to look for my ball 10 times or more. At 3 min per search, that's an extra 30 min right there.

I guess I'm trying to point out that the press for faster rounds is making a though game even more difficult for beginners.  I know because my wife has been learning for 2 yrs now and she is just now getting past the point of not getting totally flustered if I say she's got to speed up a bit. This is in direct conflict with the whole 'we have to make the game more friendly to beginners' movement. And, constantly picking up your ball is not conducive to getting better. There have been a billion posts on how hackers need to play the ball down and keep an honest score to get better.

[tiger187126]

2 of the guys in my foursome got hit into a week or two ago. we had all made our drives on 17 (again, why can't you just stick it out for a few more holes?) and were waiting for the group ahead of us when the guys behind us teed off. the first one came up short and no one noticed it, but the second one landed about 10-20 yards in front of one of the guys standing in the fairway. they drove their carts up and our guy was obviously pissed and yelled to them to which the guy makes some dismissive comment to the effect of "it's not that big of deal i don't hit it that far." the guy then asks us to help him find his ball.

needless to say our guy who almost got hit told him we would not be helping him locate it and probably something about where he could place his ball if he found it.

the guy called our guy a dick and began to get confrontational before realizing that he wasn't going to have much success at that and then slinked back to his cart.

we watched from the 18th teebox as he and his partner duffed their next 3 approach shots each.

i don't get it. i play as a single a lot so i know a thing or two about waiting, but i understand that going in. usually people let me play through, but if they don't it's no big deal. lately it's been hot so i chill in the cart or on a bench and drink some water and watch other people play.

[newtogolf]

Read up on Equitable Stroke Control (ESC).  It sets a maximum per-hole score that you can turn in for handicap purposes, and those per-hole maximums are based on your course handicap. For example, on that one disaster hole you might have taken 14 strokes to get the ball in the cup. But based on your course handicap, ESC might require you to post only a "7" on the scorecard you submit to the handicap committee.

If you pick up at whatever ESC is for the hole and your handicap you're still able to score the round for your handicap.  As a new golfer you should be concerned with your pace of play, but don't waste valuable opportunities to practice your short game and putting on a real green by picking up too quickly.

Originally Posted by bamagrad03

What I fail to understand, as someone who's totally new to golf, is why more bad golfers don't just pick the ball up. If it's slow because everyone is slow, that's one thing. But if you're on pace to hit a 150, picking one up here and there isn't going to matter.

When you're that bad, and that new, if you are holding people up, you need to either adjust your pace or pick one up every once in a while. Because, when you're THAT BAD, playing golf is more about practice and introducing yourself to the game anyway - not recording a detailed score.

People shouldn't have to suffer because you're learning. You can play as slow as you want on the driving range.

[bamagrad03]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dak4n6

What about if you shoot in the 120s? The 110s? At what point will you 'allow' players to keep score? Back in the day I played many rounds in the 90s where I had to look for my ball 10 times or more. At 3 min per search, that's an extra 30 min right there.

I guess I'm trying to point out that the press for faster rounds is making a though game even more difficult for beginners.  I know because my wife has been learning for 2 yrs now and she is just now getting past the point of not getting totally flustered if I say she's got to speed up a bit. This is in direct conflict with the whole 'we have to make the game more friendly to beginners' movement. And, constantly picking up your ball is not conducive to getting better. There have been a billion posts on how hackers need to play the ball down and keep an honest score to get better.

I'm talking about the extreme cases. I'm talking about where one has passed the utility of learning on a given hole and encroached on the futility of hacking at the expense of others. I think beginners would also be well served to seek tee times that are lighter in traffic, to offer them more time to post that 15 on a given hole should they wish.

I just feel like the time for sorting out basics is on the range (at least when you're completely new). There's going to be a law of diminishing returns on what you can learn early on - over the course of 18 holes - when you're posting a massive score...especially at the expense of everyone else behind you. So would it kill someone to pick up once or twice over the course of 18 when they're taking 6 hours to post their 150? I don't think it would.

Quote:

Read up on Equitable Stroke Control (ESC).  It sets a maximum per-hole score that you can turn in for handicap purposes, and those per-hole maximums are based on your course handicap. For example, on that one disaster hole you might have taken 14 strokes to get the ball in the cup. But based on your course handicap, ESC might require you to post only a "7" on the scorecard you submit to the handicap committee.

If you pick up at whatever ESC is for the hole and your handicap you're still able to score the round for your handicap.  As a new golfer you should be concerned with your pace of play, but don't waste valuable opportunities to practice your short game and putting on a real green by picking up too quickly.

But early on, I don't think you should concern yourself with handicap. If you're learning the game, and taking 5-6 hours (or more) to do so, posting a 14-15 on a hole vs picking up once or twice over 18 to save other folks' sanity isn't an unfair trade off. And I'd argue that your game, in the long run, won't suffer by picking up a couple in a given round - when you're shooting massive scores.

[dak4n6]

Originally Posted by bamagrad03

I'm talking about the extreme cases. I'm talking about where one has passed the utility of learning on a given hole and encroached on the futility of hacking at the expense of others. I think beginners would also be well served to seek tee times that are lighter in traffic, to offer them more time to post that 15 on a given hole should they wish.

I just feel like the time for sorting out basics is on the range (at least when you're completely new). There's going to be a law of diminishing returns on what you can learn early on - over the course of 18 holes - when you're posting a massive score...especially at the expense of everyone else behind you. So would it kill someone to pick up once or twice over the course of 18 when they're taking 6 hours to post their 150? I don't think it would.

But early on, I don't think you should concern yourself with handicap. If you're learning the game, and taking 5-6 hours (or more) to do so, posting a 14-15 on a hole vs picking up once or twice over 18 to save other folks' sanity isn't an unfair trade off. And I'd argue that your game, in the long run, won't suffer by picking up a couple in a given round - when you're shooting massive scores.

Totally agree with extreme cases (ie, 150 score), but everyone, as they get better will approach the grey area where they are not good, but not horrible, and these are the folks who still run a good risk of holding up people behind them if they want to post honest scores..as I said, this is somewhere in the 90 - 110 range.

[tiger187126]

Originally Posted by dak4n6

Totally agree with extreme cases (ie, 150 score), but everyone, as they get better will approach the grey area where they are not good, but not horrible, and these are the folks who still run a good risk of holding up people behind them if they want to post honest scores..as I said, this is somewhere in the 90 - 110 range.

on the courses i play 90-110 is probably the average for the vast majority of guys. i watch groups around me while i play and i see the scores of the guys i play with.

i don't think score determines how fast you play. it's how long you look for a ball (instead of admitting there is no chance you're going to find it), how long putting takes, and how many "extra" shots you're going to take at the teebox (i don't take more than 2, because if i lose the second ball i doubt a third is going to make me feel better.)

i've waited on good golfers to scour the woods because they can't let go of that one ball, pace off yardage for every shot, and line up putts from every conceivable angle, while i just strolled along and duffed up a snowman in half the time.

if you are a good golfer and drop by your local muni/public course expecting to get in a quick round during the courses rush hour then you're as much at fault for the slow play you're experiencing as the people holding you up.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Read up on Equitable Stroke Control (ESC).  It sets a maximum per-hole score that you can turn in for handicap purposes, and those per-hole maximums are based on your course handicap. For example, on that one disaster hole you might have taken 14 strokes to get the ball in the cup. But based on your course handicap, ESC might require you to post only a "7" on the scorecard you submit to the handicap committee.

If you pick up at whatever ESC is for the hole and your handicap you're still able to score the round for your handicap.  As a new golfer you should be concerned with your pace of play, but don't waste valuable opportunities to practice your short game and putting on a real green by picking up too quickly.

Not everyone carries a handicap, or even cares about it.  They may have a money game going between 4 worse than bogey golfers, and not one of them ever even heard of ESC.  Again, the only standard they are required to adhere to is the course pace of play standard.

I've been playing devil's advocate here because I worked as a starter for 5 years, and I know how pace of play works.  If you don't think that the typical course wouldn't like to have every group play in 3½ hours or less, then you don't understand revenue.  The faster players finish, the more can be crammed onto the course, and the more money the course makes.  Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work that way.  Those courses which try to put players out on an 8 minute interval are asking for trouble.  It just isn't going to happen.  They end up with a a logjam on every tee box and a lot of 6 hour rounds.  Even 9 minute intervals are marginal.  10 minutes seems to work well.  I've almost never seen a back up on a course with 10 minute tee time intervals, even when the tee sheet is full, and some of my better paced rounds have been on such courses.  But that 10 minutes isn't the time to play the hole, it's typically the time for a fourball to be getting ready to play their 3rd shot on the hole, meaning that there is always a comfortable space between groups.  9 minutes is normally plenty of time for a group to play their second shots and clear the driving area on the first hole, but for whatever reason, that  comfortable start never seems to carry through the entire 18 holes, not even the entire front 9.  You end up with a stop and go accordion effect.

It can be just about as much of a hassle to have a few 3½ hour players in the middle of a field of "normal" players.  Those fast players all stack up against the field and you have this mass of 3 or 4 groups waiting on several tee boxes, even though the course in front of and behind them has normal gapping between groups.  Behind them you might even have one or two holes open, but that doesn't speed up play because the next group is playing on pace.  What I've observed is that in those conditions, fast players need to learn methods for slowing down.  I realize that sounds like a sacrilege, but if you can't do anything about the pace in front of you, then you need to find a way to make it work for you.

[dak4n6]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Not everyone carries a handicap, or even cares about it.  They may have a money game going between 4 worse than bogey golfers, and not one of them ever even heard of ESC.  Again, the only standard they are required to adhere to is the course pace of play standard.

I've been playing devil's advocate here because I worked as a starter for 5 years, and I know how pace of play works.  If you don't think that the typical course wouldn't like to have every group play in 3½ hours or less, then you don't understand revenue.  The faster players finish, the more can be crammed onto the course, and the more money the course makes.  Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work that way.  Those courses which try to put players out on an 8 minute interval are asking for trouble.  It just isn't going to happen.  They end up with a a logjam on every tee box and a lot of 6 hour rounds.  Even 9 minute intervals are marginal.  10 minutes seems to work well.  I've almost never seen a back up on a course with 10 minute tee time intervals, even when the tee sheet is full, and some of my better paced rounds have been on such courses.  But that 10 minutes isn't the time to play the hole, it's typically the time for a fourball to be getting ready to play their 3rd shot on the hole, meaning that there is always a comfortable space between groups.  9 minutes is normally plenty of time for a group to play their second shots and clear the driving area on the first hole, but for whatever reason, that  comfortable start never seems to carry through the entire 18 holes, not even the entire front 9.  You end up with a stop and go accordion effect.

It can be just about as much of a hassle to have a few 3½ hour players in the middle of a field of "normal" players.  Those fast players all stack up against the field and you have this mass of 3 or 4 groups waiting on several tee boxes, even though the course in front of and behind them has normal gapping between groups.  Behind them you might even have one or two holes open, but that doesn't speed up play because the next group is playing on pace.  What I've observed is that in those conditions, fast players need to learn methods for slowing down.  I realize that sounds like a sacrilege, but if you can't do anything about the pace in front of you, then you need to find a way to make it work for you.

Fourputt, you sir, are made of win. I, like you, don't like slow play and certainly don't advocate it, but at the same time I don't get my panties bunched up about it either. I realize the economics and dynamic of what causes slow play, and don't let it bother me. And, I don't ineffectively wish that the 'norm' could consist of some other reality than it truly does. (I wish the bell curve of round duration were more narrow and shifted to the left. That's nice...I wish I had a mountain of $100 bills)

[Yukari]

I am the same way.

Originally Posted by celticstanger

I've had some nightmarish rounds of late, hooking the ball into he Arizona desert, leading to many "provisionals" and treks to track down my errant shots.  Compound this with 1 regular partner who shoots mid/high-90's (but a quick player, admittedly) and another who typically shoots high-90's to low-100's AND is PONDEROUSLY slow (oh yes, read that triple-bogey putt from both sides of the hole!!!).  We never take longer than 4.5 hours.  Slowy McSlowpants' bad behavior is offset by the fact that both myself and the other regular of the group almost always know which club we're hitting as we walk up on our balls, but on a bad day, we three (plus 1 other) can all shoot > bogey golf and STILL not threaten 4.5.

Bottom line is, bad golf doesn't have to mean slow golf.  Personally, I'm fine with 4 hours.  I'm not mad on getting up to 4.5 hours, but it doesn't really ruin my day, either.  Once you start getting farther from 4.5 and closer to 5 hours, that's when I start to get twitchy.  Sometimes I've got all day to play, sometimes I don't.  It doesn't matter, though - standing around on teeboxes or in fairways for 15-20 minutes just bores the sht out of me.  Yeah, I've got good company, yeah I'm outdoors, but I can enjoy both elsewhere.  On the course, I'm there to golf, so please let me play in no more than 4.75.

That said, I've never, or would ever, hit into someone deliberately over slow play.  Hitting something with a rapidly moving lump of solid rubber, over something so trivial, just gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Just to counter some of the negativity on the thread - for two weeks running now, I've run into slow groups (fallen out of position) and even though I didn't make loud noises of impatience, nor adopt a pouty "COME ON!" stance for them to see, they immediately waved me through.  One time I played as a single, the other in a threesome.

[onesome]

I wonder if any courses have a maximum score allowed for local rules? I would imagine 10 swings on any 1 hole is enough fun for most people.

[onesome]

Even with all the disagreements everyone may have about slow play I still am just shocked grown adults with real jobs and responsibilities to family members and whatever would resort to swinging golf clubs at another person, my god I just think how easy it would be for someone to get killed doing that and it just blows my mind.

[sstone8]

We were stuck behind a slow group of 5 the other day (4 adults and 1 small child who was playing every shot).  It was annoying and we got a little mad, but none of us were ready to fight over it.  Anyway, the small child forgot one of his clubs on a green, so my friend drove it up to them on the next tee box and casually said "did yall forget a club?", obviously he knew it was their's but still.  The guy walked up and said "well from the looks of it, yes, its ours", as he pointed at the kid.  He didnt even say thank you.  So not only were they slow and refused to let us play through, they were rude and arrogant.

[AngieS]

Thank you so much for your response! I'm a new player (I've only played 4 rounds) and it seems like folks behind me are always pushing me along. I try to follow the suggested rules (don't hunt forever for a lost ball, take a few possible club selections with you, etc.), but I AM still new and relatively slow. That being said, I'm usually getting through 18 holes in 3-1/2 hours with a pair of folks right up my butt the entire way. I "think" I'm doing OK and trying to be courteous, but I'm not sure those behind always are. If I were taking longer I'd have more guilt as a newbie, but damn, I would like to be able to take a moment here and there especially on fairway shots without someone's ball rolling up behind me. : )

Just know that we newbies DO want to get better and faster and that we appreciate your patience and we respect your need for speed. : )

[AngieS]

Thank you! We newbies (who do motor along at about 3-1/2 hours really badly!) appreciate your patience! : )

[AngieS]

They schedule the tee times much too closely, don't you think? At the course I play, I think it's 8 minutes between. I don't think that's super crazy, except when I do run into trouble and people aren't patient enough to wait at the tee. Seems like they always want to be just a shot behind you and I think that's just rude.