To Golfers Who Score in the 70s - What's Your Story?

[Piz]

I've only broken 80 a handful of times.  On each occasion I drove well and left myself a legitimate opportunity to reach the greens in regulation.  

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

That sounds like you're just reaffirming your own conclusions. It doesn't mean you're right buddy. Im pretty sure you're not. At least not in my case. 

I'm not reaffirming anything other than what's generally true (for the vast, vast majority of golfers). And I'm not talking about your case, except that I'd still be willing to take the bet that you're not the exception you think you are.

But you may be. The bet wouldn't be a sure thing… the odds are just heavily in my favor.

5 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I was always a good ballstriker. It came naturally to me when i was beginning.

Then maybe, in your unique case, your short game WAS a glaring weakness. So maybe you ARE the exception to the rule.

But generally speaking, for almost everyone, saying "work mostly on your short game and putting" is bad advice - their full swing is what's lacking.

5 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Like i responded to iacas, I'm just not trusting the sample data, there. Everyone misses greens in a round and to say short game and putting dont matter in becoming a good player is bordering on negligent, IMO. 

Nobody's said putting and short game don't matter. They matter… just half as much as tee shots and approach shots.

5 hours ago, NCGolfer said:

Putting matters.  Absolutely.  Just not as much. I get the feeling we will agree to disagree...and that's OK.

Putting is generally about 12-15%, IIRC, across all levels of golfer.

Those ratios are pretty steady through even the pro ranks: the same percentages separate the best PGA Tour pros from the +2s of the world… and so on.

There are a lot more shots to be saved in the full swing than short game + putting combined. On an individual case, the odds are in favor of that still being true, but it's obviously a unique situation for each person.

4 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I suppose ball striking matters more than putting and short game to a 10-20 handicap than does to a scratch player.

No, it matters about the same to every level of player. The numbers are relatively consistent whether you're comparing 100 vs. 80, 90 vs. a Tour pro, etc.

4 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

The stuff i play in, everyone hits the ball, so making those 10-15 footers is usually how you separate. I can go out to 150 yards and hit 8 or 9 irons inside 20 feet forever. But i need to drain some of those for my score to be lower. 

Really? Cuz…

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

Median PGA Tour player, from 125-150 from the fairway averages 23'3". From 150-175, again from the fairway, the median guy is 27'10".

So from 150, you're looking at a median leave of about 25'7". But you can hit them inside 20' forever?

If that's true, then yes, go work on your putting. I don't care how good a putter you are, that's probably a glaring weakness considering the leader from 150-175 (from the fairway) only averages 22'6" and the leader from 125-150 averages 19'10".

---

I'm not capable of (because I've not measured your game) discussing your game. What I am very, VERY qualified to do is tell you where you're perceptions or personal experience collide or conflict with the vast majority of what regular golfers do, or need to do, to shoot lower scores.

The vast, vast majority of golfers needing to shave 10 strokes will shave about 6.7 from their full swing and only 3.3 from their short game and putting. They'll shave only about 1.4 from their putting. If they can DOUBLE that improvement, why… they can shave 2.8 strokes from their putting, but doubling that is really huge, and it still isn't even three strokes.

[Groucho Valentine]

22 hours ago, iacas said:

I'm not reaffirming anything other than what's generally true (for the vast, vast majority of golfers). And I'm not talking about your case, except that I'd still be willing to take the bet that you're not the exception you think you are.

But you may be. The bet wouldn't be a sure thing… the odds are just heavily in my favor.

Then maybe, in your unique case, your short game WAS a glaring weakness. So maybe you ARE the exception to the rule.

But generally speaking, for almost everyone, saying "work mostly on your short game and putting" is bad advice - their full swing is what's lacking.

Nobody's said putting and short game don't matter. They matter… just half as much as tee shots and approach shots.

Putting is generally about 12-15%, IIRC, across all levels of golfer.

Those ratios are pretty steady through even the pro ranks: the same percentages separate the best PGA Tour pros from the +2s of the world… and so on.

There are a lot more shots to be saved in the full swing than short game + putting combined. On an individual case, the odds are in favor of that still being true, but it's obviously a unique situation for each person.

No, it matters about the same to every level of player. The numbers are relatively consistent whether you're comparing 100 vs. 80, 90 vs. a Tour pro, etc.

Really? Cuz…

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

Median PGA Tour player, from 125-150 from the fairway averages 23'3". From 150-175, again from the fairway, the median guy is 27'10".

So from 150, you're looking at a median leave of about 25'7". But you can hit them inside 20' forever?

If that's true, then yes, go work on your putting. I don't care how good a putter you are, that's probably a glaring weakness considering the leader from 150-175 (from the fairway) only averages 22'6" and the leader from 125-150 averages 19'10".

---

I'm not capable of (because I've not measured your game) discussing your game. What I am very, VERY qualified to do is tell you where you're perceptions or personal experience collide or conflict with the vast majority of what regular golfers do, or need to do, to shoot lower scores.

The vast, vast majority of golfers needing to shave 10 strokes will shave about 6.7 from their full swing and only 3.3 from their short game and putting. They'll shave only about 1.4 from their putting. If they can DOUBLE that improvement, why… they can shave 2.8 strokes from their putting, but doubling that is really huge, and it still isn't even three strokes.

Theres too much going on in this cherry pick city..

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Theres too much going on in this cherry pick city..

No.

You're unaware of the knowledge we have these days about how golfers score. About what separates golfers.

And you're unlikely capable of hitting those shots inside 20' as you claim.

[onthehunt526]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

No.

You're unaware of the knowledge we have these days about how golfers score. About what separates golfers.

And you're unlikely capable of hitting those shots inside 20' as you claim.

Erik,

Why is it that 70s shooters thinks they'll always knock it inside 10 feet from say 100 yards?

I have trouble doing it consistently from 20 yards let alone 100. I can shoot in the 70s maybe 1 in 5 rounds... And I probably average closer to 30 feet or so from 100 yards. (I don't have a tape measure in my bag, and I lost my rangefinder).

I know the original range was 125-175 yards. 

Most golfers would be surprised of their average proximity to the hole from certain yardages are...

Or how many strokes they average to hole out from those yardages...

For example, from 75-100 yards, you may think you should get down in 2 half the times and never more than 3. But you may take 4 to get down on occasion, or worse. 

I don't own Every Shot Counts. But I've seen the data on the strokes to hole out from given distances... Would that be why approach shots and GIR are the most important factors in scoring well. 

I have noticed I can shoot in the 70s with 7 GIRs, if I have no penalties... 6 would be absolutely pushing it (unless it's a par-70)... But I usually will have enough nGIR to make the other 4 pars... And I never take more than 3 to get down from nGIR.

Last Saturday, I hit some really good shots, and got stymied by trees probably a half dozen times, I only 3-putted once, but stymies cost you a stroke and it a couple cases it cost me two... We won't talk about the 16th hole...

[Groucho Valentine]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

No.

You're unaware of the knowledge we have these days about how golfers score. About what separates golfers.

And you're unlikely capable of hitting those shots inside 20' as you claim.

Whatever you say, snowflake.

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Whatever you say, snowflake.

Look, dude, just keep plugging your ears and humming a tune. The world is learning more and more. Your ideas, your thoughts, they're becoming outdated/wrong. Misleading at best.

But hey, just keep plugging and humming.

But when you pass along what I consider poor advice, I'm gonna say so, just as I did here. The difference? I don't plug my ears and hum a song. I listen. I learn. I test. I experiment. I measure. I know. I'm not guessing as you are. Nor am I calling you a "snowflake" because I've got nothing to actually say, other than "nuh uh."

If that's how you enjoy golf, that's totally cool. I'm glad you enjoy the game I love so much.

12 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Why is it that 70s shooters thinks they'll always knock it inside 10 feet from say 100 yards?

I don't know. I certainly don't, and even though I typically played the way I wrote up in LSW before I wrote LSW, writing it and teaching it has made me even more aware of the stats. Like yesterday, in my round, I had about 67 yards to the first green, with a bunker right. I put the shot left of the flag about 14 feet… and was fortunate to make the putt. Then on 10 I had 106 or something to a front pin. I put it about 12 feet behind the flag. Two very good shots, but neither intentionally trying to hit it at the pin the exact yardage.

I mean, there's some confidence to most people's games. They have to believe they'll hit it relatively close to where they're aiming. Confidence isn't a bad thing, of course. Also, good golfers tend to have a confirmation bias type of thing going on, or they only remember their good shots, or they are overly confident and think "I'm only one over, I can stick this close and get back to E for the day…".

Plus people are bad with distances. I've seen a guy complain about the 10-footer he missed… as he took six or seven steps toward the hole to tap the ball in. A foot is not very long…

And some of them, well, they're just being dumb. They honestly think they're better than the best players in the world, or something.

So in the end… I don't know. I've never really asked a bunch of them.

12 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

I have trouble doing it consistently from 20 yards let alone 100. I can shoot in the 70s maybe 1 in 5 rounds... And I probably average closer to 30 feet or so from 100 yards. (I don't have a tape measure in my bag, and I lost my rangefinder).

Precisely. But you're probably a bit more aware of these kinds of things.

BTW you just joined the LSW Club here and the first topic I made was about Realistic Expectations.

12 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

I know the original range was 125-175 yards. 

Most golfers would be surprised of their average proximity to the hole from certain yardages are...

Or how many strokes they average to hole out from those yardages...

I think you're hitting it on the nose here.

12 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

For example, from 75-100 yards, you may think you should get down in 2 half the times and never more than 3. But you may take 4 to get down on occasion, or worse.

Right.

From 75-100, a PGA Tour player averages about 2.77 or so. That's getting down in two less than 1/4 of the time. Oh, and that's from the fairway. Take "75-100" as a whole and you're looking at almost 2.9, or one in ten.

12 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

I don't own Every Shot Counts. But I've seen the data on the strokes to hole out from given distances... Would that be why approach shots and GIR are the most important factors in scoring well.

Yeah, the difference between missing a green and giving yourself even a 30-footer is BIG.

12 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

I have noticed I can shoot in the 70s with 7 GIRs, if I have no penalties... 6 would be absolutely pushing it (unless it's a par-70)... But I usually will have enough nGIR to make the other 4 pars... And I never take more than 3 to get down from nGIR.

Right.

Advance your ball. Get near a bunch of greens in a round.

Hell, if you can average 2.5 from near the green, and you're just NEAR all 18 greens in a round… that's an 81 right there. Hit two greens and two-putt and you're at 80. Hit four and two-putt them… 79. If you can take only 3 half the time you miss the green, and two the other half.

And that's without chipping in, making a birdie putt, etc. That's just being really good at getting nGIR, and not even all that great at scrambling.

12 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Last Saturday, I hit some really good shots, and got stymied by trees probably a half dozen times, I only 3-putted once, but stymies cost you a stroke and it a couple cases it cost me two... We won't talk about the 16th hole...

Okay. We won't. 

[Groucho Valentine]

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

Look, dude, just keep plugging your ears and humming a tune. The world is learning more and more. Your ideas, your thoughts, they're becoming outdated/wrong. Misleading at best.

But hey, just keep plugging and humming.

But when you pass along what I consider poor advice, I'm gonna say so, just as I did here. The difference? I don't plug my ears and hum a song. I listen. I learn. I test. I experiment. I measure. I know. I'm not guessing as you are. Nor am I calling you a "snowflake" because I've got nothing to actually say, other than "nuh uh."

If that's how you enjoy golf, that's totally cool. I'm glad you enjoy the game I love so much.

I don't know. I certainly don't, and even though I typically played the way I wrote up in LSW before I wrote LSW, writing it and teaching it has made me even more aware of the stats. Like yesterday, in my round, I had about 67 yards to the first green, with a bunker right. I put the shot left of the flag about 14 feet… and was fortunate to make the putt. Then on 10 I had 106 or something to a front pin. I put it about 12 feet behind the flag. Two very good shots, but neither intentionally trying to hit it at the pin the exact yardage.

I mean, there's some confidence to most people's games. They have to believe they'll hit it relatively close to where they're aiming. Confidence isn't a bad thing, of course. Also, good golfers tend to have a confirmation bias type of thing going on, or they only remember their good shots, or they are overly confident and think "I'm only one over, I can stick this close and get back to E for the day…".

Plus people are bad with distances. I've seen a guy complain about the 10-footer he missed… as he took six or seven steps toward the hole to tap the ball in. A foot is not very long…

And some of them, well, they're just being dumb. They honestly think they're better than the best players in the world, or something.

So in the end… I don't know. I've never really asked a bunch of them.

Precisely. But you're probably a bit more aware of these kinds of things.

BTW you just joined the LSW Club here and the first topic I made was about Realistic Expectations.

I think you're hitting it on the nose here.

Right.

From 75-100, a PGA Tour player averages about 2.77 or so. That's getting down in two less than 1/4 of the time. Oh, and that's from the fairway. Take "75-100" as a whole and you're looking at almost 2.9, or one in ten.

Yeah, the difference between missing a green and giving yourself even a 30-footer is BIG.

Right.

Advance your ball. Get near a bunch of greens in a round.

Hell, if you can average 2.5 from near the green, and you're just NEAR all 18 greens in a round… that's an 81 right there. Hit two greens and two-putt and you're at 80. Hit four and two-putt them… 79. If you can take only 3 half the time you miss the green, and two the other half.

And that's without chipping in, making a birdie putt, etc. That's just being really good at getting nGIR, and not even all that great at scrambling.

Okay. We won't. 

Who's to say you're not passing around BS, homeboy? Im an elite player (relatively speaking), and i know what i do to score. No matter what kind of links or numbers you multi quote note of that stuff passes a smell test. It just comes off as the self serving opinion of a swing instructor to me. There is no way to scientifically quantify the shot dispersion of millions of amateur golfers. None. Any sample data you're using has to be less than 1%. That isnt enough to justify. So I'm just not buying your conclusions.  

People do misjudge distances on the green all the time, tho. 

[iacas]

Just now, Groucho Valentine said:

Who's to say you're not passing around BS, homeboy?

Uh, not you.

You haven't offered anything to speak of. You've not engaged or refuted anything I've said. And it's not just me saying this stuff.

Again you're speaking from a position of ignorance… and I just mean that literally. AFAIK, you've not read my book. You've not read Every Shot Counts. You're basing stuff of what you remember from your own experiences.

As I've said maybe for your game you're actually one of the few exceptions.

But putting is not what separates good players from bad players. Nor is it short game. Much, much more is to be gained, generally speaking, from the full swing. Twice as much, roughly.

Just now, Groucho Valentine said:

Im an elite player (relatively speaking), and i know what i do to score.

You can be an elite player and not know what you do to score.

Justin Rose told Sean Foley he wanted to work on his wedge game a few years back over the off-season, citing that he wasn't very good from whatever ranges he cited. Sean Foley looked up some numbers and came back to Justin to tell him that he was the best player on the PGA Tour from those distances.

Even great players can misjudge their relative strengths and weaknesses.

Just now, Groucho Valentine said:

No matter what kind of links or numbers you multi quote note of that stuff passes a smell test.

Plug your ears and hum a tune, man.

Just now, Groucho Valentine said:

No matter what kind of links or numbers you multi quote note of that stuff passes a smell test. It just comes off as the self serving opinion of a swing instructor to me.

Uhm…

• I teach putting really well.
• I teach the short game even better.
• Mark Broadie teaches college classes and doesn't teach golf at all.

So your point there is… what?

Cuz here's what you're missing. I teach GOLF. I teach SCORING. I teach players how to play the game and shoot the lowest scores. I'm really quite good at what I do, too, and in part that's because I understand these kinds of stats and how they apply to golfers.

Just now, Groucho Valentine said:

There is no way to scientifically quantify the shot dispersion of millions of amateur golfers. None.

You don't seem to understand how this stuff works… you see, there are pretty big patterns. And you can sample more than enough golfers to gain an understanding of how everything fits together.

For example… almost every golfer in the world is going to get a lower score on a 100-yard hole than they are on a 300-yard hole. Almost every golfer in the world will get a lower score putting from 30 feet than chipping from 35 feet. Almost every golfer in the world will get a lower score if they hit the ball 30 yards further with every club.

You study enough people and you can see these patterns. They're pretty obvious in hind-sight, but getting to where it's actually hind-sight and not just guessing is the key step.

Just now, Groucho Valentine said:

So I'm just not buying your conclusions.

Like I said, that's fine. But just keep plugging your ears and humming along. That's all you're doing here, man. You've not got anything to actually contribute.

---

I'm not trying to be confrontational at all here. I'm just pointing out that you're not really coming at me with anything other than "I know what I do to score" (when you may very well be wrong about that, as Justin Rose was, and as others frequently are).

[Buckeyebowman]

Hell, even Hank Haney, who many have flamed here, says distance determines your potential in the game! That, and accuracy. I'm just happy when I hit it in the fairway and put it anywhere on the green so that I'm putting!

 

FWIW, I played the best golf of my life, in my early to mid '20's, when my tee to green game was at it's apex! I could hit my tee shot, and then my approach, right where I wanted to! I could shoot par, or a few strokes under just doing that.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Buckeyebowman

[Lazarus]

I have shaved 3-4 strokes off my hcap each of the the last two seasons and 90% of my practice and instruction is full swing. I just tend to warm up 50/50 on the short game area before a round and do specific drills if I feel I'm well off. 

[jsgolfer]

16 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Who's to say you're not passing around BS, homeboy? Im an elite player (relatively speaking), and i know what i do to score. No matter what kind of links or numbers you multi quote note of that stuff passes a smell test. It just comes off as the self serving opinion of a swing instructor to me. There is no way to scientifically quantify the shot dispersion of millions of amateur golfers. None. Any sample data you're using has to be less than 1%. That isnt enough to justify. So I'm just not buying your conclusions.  

People do misjudge distances on the green all the time, tho. 

You may be an elite player, much better than me, but if you hit it as close as you say you do, you should be playing on a tour somewhere?  Because you hit it better than the best pro's on tour from that distance.

@iacas isn't self-serving at all, IMO, he really is trying to make us all better golfers.  You can take his advice or not, but for me, I lose way more shots when my full swing is off.  My short game does save my butt when I miss greens, but if I was better with the full swing, I wouldn't have to use that skill so often.  

Erik preaches this all the time, but I was told this same thing long ago when I first started playing.  When you practice, focus on improving your long game so you can hit more greens in regulation.  The more greens you hit, the better you will score.  

[Groucho Valentine]

On September 1, 2017 at 8:08 AM, jsgolfer said:

You may be an elite player, much better than me, but if you hit it as close as you say you do, you should be playing on a tour somewhere?  Because you hit it better than the best pro's on tour from that distance.

@iacas isn't self-serving at all, IMO, he really is trying to make us all better golfers.  You can take his advice or not, but for me, I lose way more shots when my full swing is off.  My short game does save my butt when I miss greens, but if I was better with the full swing, I wouldn't have to use that skill so often.  

Erik preaches this all the time, but I was told this same thing long ago when I first started playing.  When you practice, focus on improving your long game so you can hit more greens in regulation.  The more greens you hit, the better you will score.  

Is it the chicken or the egg, here? 

[satchmodog]

Is this for 9 or 18?

[ygmondoux]

I've had a 78 hitting every green. I've played a bogey free round 70 hitting 3/18... My only birdie way a 50 feet chip-in.

But on a good game it's pretty simple.

Have to stay out of trouble on my drive. (Knowing where to miss)

Have to hit decent irons on the green or near miss. (Knowing where to miss)

On those near miss I have to chip very close. Because I'm not that good at making 5'+ footers for par. 

If I do all this I'll play a 74 or better. 

On a very low score day If I can play to my strenght I drive very well and setup alot of 125 to 75 yards shot. From there, I'll get down in 3 most of the time... and in 2 more than in 4. 

 

 

[NM Golf]

On 8/31/2017 at 12:40 PM, Groucho Valentine said:

Who's to say you're not passing around BS, homeboy? Im an elite player (relatively speaking), and i know what i do to score. No matter what kind of links or numbers you multi quote note of that stuff passes a smell test. It just comes off as the self serving opinion of a swing instructor to me. There is no way to scientifically quantify the shot dispersion of millions of amateur golfers. None. Any sample data you're using has to be less than 1%. That isnt enough to justify. So I'm just not buying your conclusions.  

People do misjudge distances on the green all the time, tho. 

Hey @iacas I think I just went back to 2005!

Believe what you want, but don't pass off what you believe (not supported at all by the data) as fact. You saying "That's how it is for me." IS NOT FACT. For all we know you can't break 100.

As I have said in some other threads I have always believed the importance of the long game far outweighed that of the short game. I have worked at a golf course for over 20 years, I see it all the time. The big difference between the 10-15 handicap and the scratch golfer is their long game. The biggest difference between me and my 5 handicap buddies is...THE LONG GAME. Many of them have very comparable games inside 100 yards to mine. 

The data supports Erik not you, until you can say something actually supported by some type of actual data, you should stay out of the conversation.  

[iacas]

13 hours ago, ygmondoux said:

I've had a 78 hitting every green. I've played a bogey free round 70 hitting 3/18... My only birdie way a 50 feet chip-in.

Really?

C'mon… those are either freak occurrences or you just made things up. You hit EVERY green and took 42 putts? And then you hit 3 greens and got up and down 15 times?

I'm not saying those things can't happen, just that they'd be really rare… and they're NOT what generally happens.

Generally speaking, hitting the ball well is important. Getting your ball on the green with putts that you can two-putt or occasionally make is the "trick" to shooting lower scores.

[MacDutch]

Funny guy this Groucho, think he is trolling you Erik. 

My story as someone who scores in the seventies when playing a good round (low eighties are more common).

I really need my long game to be on. Hitting it 220-230y from the tee, playing a course at 6700y. Next I mostly have a wood or a hybrid to the green. Because of that I became a really good woods/hybrid player (practice it a lot during my rounds). There are two 440y par4's that I can't reach in two, stopped trying to make gir there (no more 3 woods out of my shoes to the green).

Not that I hit every green, I even miss greens from 100y in, allways very happy to be on the green in regulation. Ngir is king for me. If not on the green, but almost, I try my Texas wedge (putter) to make up and down.

I am not an elite player at all, but am really into scoring. Thinking about buying a chipper, because my chipping is below average. I take my driver out on every hole except par3's. I learned to hit a short gripped driver with an easy 70% swing 180-190y, when there is danger at 200+y, it works for me all the time.

Edited September 21, 2017 by MacDutch