Short Putts Firm?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by zeg

Interesting. While I wouldn't call nine inches past the hole "firm" either, it's decidedly different than I'd *ever* call a ball that "died" in the hole. Dying isn't just moving slowly, it's when you are groaning because you just left one on the lip, followed by a sigh of relief as it just barely drops in. It's more like a putt that would have stopped at the center of the hole, not a couple rolls past. But, if we're going to use it in a different way for this thread, that's fine with me.

I feel I've consistently said nine inches in this thread. So whatever you call it, "nine inches" is my argument and the basis for everything I've said as the "slower" speed than "firm."

Originally Posted by zeg

To do this "constructively," what we need is a systematic study of how well golfers can control their distance as a function of the length of the putt, and how well they can control the starting line of their putt, again as a function of length of the putt or starting speed.

Those kinds of studies have been done. We've also compiled plenty of data from testing our students (and ourselves) with SAM.

The problem with any study, too, is that what do you consider the margin for error? If you have a five-foot putt is hitting it ten feet a 100% error, or is that only a 20% error? Is hitting it 90° to your intended target 100% error or is that just so far outside the realm that you make 10° "100%" error.

If you constrict "error" to "bad enough to miss the putt" then, without a doubt, people get the angle of their putter wrong far more than they get their speed wrong, so golfers should, by and large (generally speaking) adopt a putting method that maximizes their allowable error for face angle (start line).

Originally Posted by zeg

And, furthermore, I wouldn't say it's all that rare to leave a very short putt short, especially when there's a slope involved.

It's way more rare than someone who misses a very short putt by getting the wrong face angle (missing the line) for their chosen speed.

[mdl]

Erik,

Will the SAM software do aggregate analysis, or does it just give feedback on a per-user basis?  Does it save data by user ID, or forget the user's info after a new session is initiated?

I ask just because it looks like it collects really detailed data, and as a statistician and a golf nerd I'd love to get my hands on a whole database of amateur putting measurements.  So I guess I'm hoping the SAM software saves all its data in a form that you can output basically as a big spreadsheet pretty easily, but doesn't do aggregate analysis itself, so there's some chance you'll let me play with it.  Of course I'd share any interesting findings, and wouldn't share the data with anyone.

[dsc123]

Quote:

You could easily say that you missed your line. Or your distance control is terrible. Either way, your own example could support either one of us. You missed the "proper" line for the speed at which you hit the ball. Who is to say which is really at fault? You've probably pulled or pushed some of those and drilled them into the hole, too. Same thing: a misread, but you compounded your errors in a way that let you make it.

True, its not like i'm measuring my face angle at impact on the 18th green.  But if I pick a spot 2 inches high, send the ball on a path between that spot and the upper lip, and leaves me with a 2 footer coming back, the odds are pretty good that I missed because of my speed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Seriously, I don't think you appreciate the complexity of answering your questions. The answer will quite literally change if your angle to the slope goes from 45° to 60°, or the stimp goes from 10.5 to 10, or the % slope goes from 3 to 4.

Oh I totally recognize this that this would be really complicated.  But do you think the relationship could flip?  I tend to think not, but I couldn't really explain why.  In which case you don't need to figure out every possible combination to get the general idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

I can quantify that. But you have to give me a specific amount.

Here you go.

1. 90° to the slope.
2. Four footer.
3. 2.5% slope.
4. Stimp 10.

At nine inches the ball will break five inches (three inches outside the hole).

At three feet past the hole the ball will break almost four inches (two inches outside the hole).

Wow.  Hitting it 3 feet past the hole only takes 20% of the break out?  Do you think "hitting it firm" really only reduces break that much or do you think we are underestimating how far past the hole is "firm"?

Is the number for the 3' speed based on 57% of the total break on a 7 foot putt under the conditions you identified?

So with this, if we define soft as 9 inches and firm as 3 feet, we know the advantages of "firm" are (under the conditions above):

1. Removes 20% (1 inch) of the break (I expected something like 75%)

2. Allows you to hit the ball 3 feet short or long and still hit the putt.

The disadvantage is that you lose 63% of the cup (2.4 inches).

Then a particular player may have additional preferences that favor one or the other:

1. confidence

2. particular tendencies and difficulties

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Sometimes when I have 3-4' putts with fairly severe right to left break (I'm right handed) I get a little uncomfortable and turn into a rammer.  Something about that specific putt (I don't ram straight putts or left to righters) makes me want to hit it hard.  I'm thinking something like, "well, I know for 100% certainty that it breaks to the left, but I don't know how much, so if I hit it directly at the right edge of the hole there's no way I can miss right, and if I hit it hard enough, it shouldn't have enough time to miss left either."  I think it's just lacking confidence in my read.

This is generally my thinking.  If I am at the edge, and don't give it time to break 4.25 inches, I can't miss.  I still think this can be the better approach than guessing the break and putting soft.  At least in this situation where you're really unsure of the break.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by dsc123

Wow.  Hitting it 3 feet past the hole only takes 20% of the break out?  Do you think "hitting it firm" really only reduces break that much or do you think we are underestimating how far past the hole is "firm"?

"Firm" for a lot of people is more than three feet past the hole, yes. But I did have a four-footer.

Look, from a foot or two, I don't think it matters. It's a pointless discussion. You just jab at the ball and it goes in. People don't miss those unless they have the yips.

Three, four, five feet, that's where you see people being firm.

I'm showing how little added distance past the hole changes the margin of error on the angles quite a bit.

Originally Posted by dsc123

1. Removes 20% (1 inch) of the break (I expected something like 75%)

2. Allows you to hit the ball 3 feet short or long and still hit the putt.

No, if you hit your line but hit it 3 feet harder, you'll miss. The putt will lip out. If you hit it three feet shorter you might miss too (it might just miss low) given your read. The putt would break more than the five inches the "nine inches past" putt will break, and the wobble (last six inches) will be in front of the hole.

Originally Posted by dsc123

Then a particular player may have additional preferences that favor one or the other:

1. confidence

2. particular tendencies and difficulties

Firm != confidence.

I'm much more confident putting to a larger hole.

Originally Posted by dsc123

This is generally my thinking.  If I am at the edge, and don't give it time to break 4.25 inches, I can't miss.  I still think this can be the better approach than guessing the break and putting soft.  At least in this situation where you're really unsure of the break.

I don't think you're really understanding capture speed... If you aim at the edge, and hit the putt hard, you might need to hit the middle 0.5 inches of the hole. The hole is not 4.25" wide for you.

[colin007]

Did you guys see Tigers 2nd to last putt on 18 yesterday? i think it demonstrates this concept perfectly.

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by iacas

Look, from a foot or two, I don't think it matters. It's a pointless discussion. You just jab at the ball and it goes in. People don't miss those unless they have the yips.

Probably true.

Originally Posted by iacas

Firm != confidence.

I'm much more confident putting to a larger hole.

That's why I said "a particular player may have additional preferences that favor one or the other"

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't think you're really understanding capture speed... If you aim at the edge, and hit the putt hard, you might need to hit the middle 0.5 inches of the hole. The hole is not 4.25" wide for you.

Oh I understand it, and as I wrote that I was thinking that the approach really doesn't make sense.  I just meant that the thought process golfingdad described is exactly what I have thought about on short putts.