OB/Lost Ball Drop

[themittenstate]

This question has probably been asked here before but I couldn't find anything...

I hook my 2nd shot into the high rough, taking a divot. Ball is lost.

1. Do I have to drop precisely in my divot? (I'm not saying that the ball has to go in the divot, but let's say I drop it 6 inches to the left of it- it's pretty obvious that this is not where I played my previous shot).

2. May I replace my divot prior to hitting a provisional or my next ball (fourth shot)?

My gut tells me that I cannot replace my divot and that I am not able to take a step back before I drop my ball in an effort to avoid landing in my own divot. But I can honestly say that I have never seen a player drop a ball back into his own divot after going OB/lost. Anyone ever seen a player get called for this?

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by themittenstate

This question has probably been asked here before but I couldn't find anything...

I hook my 2nd shot into the high rough, taking a divot. Ball is lost.

1. Do I have to drop precisely in my divot? (I'm not saying that the ball has to go in the divot, but let's say I drop it 6 inches to the left of it- it's pretty obvious that this is not where I played my previous shot).

2. May I replace my divot prior to hitting a provisional or my next ball (fourth shot)?

My gut tells me that I cannot replace my divot and that I am not able to take a step back before I drop my ball in an effort to avoid landing in my own divot. But I can honestly say that I have never seen a player drop a ball back into his own divot after going OB/lost. Anyone ever seen a player get called for this?

These are interesting questions.  It seems as if you should not have to hit out of the divot, but I just reread Rule 27 and scanned its Decisions and reread Rule 20-5 and its Decision and do not see anything that would avoid the divot other than a fortuitous roll out of the divot when the drop is made.  But there are guys here with lots more knowledge and experience here than I have so I will join you in waiting for a more definitive answer.

[luu5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by themittenstate

This question has probably been asked here before but I couldn't find anything...

I hook my 2nd shot into the high rough, taking a divot. Ball is lost.

1. Do I have to drop precisely in my divot? (I'm not saying that the ball has to go in the divot, but let's say I drop it 6 inches to the left of it- it's pretty obvious that this is not where I played my previous shot).

2. May I replace my divot prior to hitting a provisional or my next ball (fourth shot)?

My gut tells me that I cannot replace my divot and that I am not able to take a step back before I drop my ball in an effort to avoid landing in my own divot. But I can honestly say that I have never seen a player drop a ball back into his own divot after going OB/lost. Anyone ever seen a player get called for this?

The divot should be in front of the ball, so you should not need to drop in divot anyway. This is the ideal scenario.

The answer to the original question 2 depends if you knew you need to drop the ball before replacing the divot.

Decision 13-2/4.5:

Q: A player makes a stroke. He replaces his divot and other divots nearby. He then discovers that his ball is lost or out of bounds. The player must now drop a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which his previous stroke was made – Rule 27-1. In these circumstances, is the player in breach of Rule 13-2, which prohibits improving the area in which a ball is to be dropped by eliminating irregularities of surface by replacing a divot?

A: No. When the player replaced the divots, he was unaware that he would be required to drop a ball in the area. Therefore, in equity (Rule 1-4), he is not penalised.

However, if the player wished to play a provisional ball because he thought his original ball might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, he would be prohibited from replacing his or other divots in the area where he would be dropping the provisional ball.

[zeg]

The decision luu quoted should be an incentive to replace every divot immediately after every shot. You never know when you will need to go back and drop on it.

But, yes, you do have to drop at the same spot, regardless of the turf condition. If you're lucky, you'll miss, but I guess the divot is part of the penalty...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by zeg

The decision luu quoted should be an incentive to replace every divot immediately after every shot. You never know when you will need to go back and drop on it.

But, yes, you do have to drop at the same spot, regardless of the turf condition. If you're lucky, you'll miss, but I guess the divot is part of the penalty...

The goal is to re-create the same shot. We're not talking millimeter precision here. Just drop a foot away from your divot, ideally perhaps behind it (no closer to the hole) rather than beside it, and hit your next shot.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by iacas

The goal is to re-create the same shot. We're not talking millimeter precision here. Just drop a foot away from your divot, ideally perhaps behind it (no closer to the hole) rather than beside it, and hit your next shot.

Where is the justification in rules 27 and 20-5 for this? I read 27 as saying " as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5 )." and while 20-5 explicitly lets you play from the entire teeing ground, it is not explicit in letting you play from a different spot in other situations.

If the "goal" is to recreate the same shot it seems like you are better off placing the ball as opposed to dropping it.  As an example, I hit it OOB from a bunker the other day.  There was no way that dropping the ball in the bunker would re-create the same shot as I had a good lie the first time and a drop is almost certain to plug a bit, especially for a taller player like myself.

Rule 20-5 says to place the ball on the putting green, but not in other situations.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by MEfree

If the "goal" is to recreate the same shot it seems like you are better off placing the ball as opposed to dropping it.  As an example, I hit it OOB from a bunker the other day.  There was no way that dropping the ball in the bunker would re-create the same shot as I had a good lie the first time and a drop is almost certain to plug a bit, especially for a taller player like myself.

I think the problem is that placing is likely to create a better lie than you had to begin with. In most cases, a drop is likely to give you a similar lie, and since it's less precise, doesn't let you choose the best available spot. It can be annoying in the bunker, but the rules don't generally take much pity on people in bunkers. :-)

I do think that the rules require you to try to hit the exact spot on a stroke and distance play from outside the teeing ground. I think it'd be better if you were allowed to fill in your divot and restore the area to its condition from before your stroke, but that has its own complications.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by zeg

I think the problem is that placing is likely to create a better lie than you had to begin with. In most cases, a drop is likely to give you a similar lie, and since it's less precise, doesn't let you choose the best available spot. It can be annoying in the bunker, but the rules don't generally take much pity on people in bunkers. :-)

I do think that the rules require you to try to hit the exact spot on a stroke and distance play from outside the teeing ground. I think it'd be better if you were allowed to fill in your divot and restore the area to its condition from before your stroke, but that has its own complications.

It seems like your interpretation of this is different than Erik`s.  From a fairness standpoint, his makes more sense to me, but yours seems to be more in accordance with how the rules are actually written.  Maybe he will chime in with a decision or justification for his stance.

The problem with the rules requiring you to try and hit the exact spot is that those who are more accurate droppers are more likely to land in their own divot, while the less accurate droppers seem to get rewarded.

[Dormie1360]

We talk about 20-5 here.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/56029/how-far-can-the-ball-roll-on-taking-relief/18

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

The goal is to re-create the same shot. We're not talking millimeter precision here. Just drop a foot away from your divot, ideally perhaps behind it (no closer to the hole) rather than beside it, and hit your next shot.

Where is the justification in rules 27 and 20-5 for this?  I read 27 as saying "as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5)." and while 20-5 explicitly lets you play from the entire teeing ground, it is not explicit in letting you play from a different spot in other situations.

If the "goal" is to recreate the same shot it seems like you are better off placing the ball as opposed to dropping it.  As an example, I hit it OOB from a bunker the other day.  There was no way that dropping the ball in the bunker would re-create the same shot as I had a good lie the first time and a drop is almost certain to plug a bit, especially for a taller player like myself.

Rule 20-5 says to place the ball on the putting green, but not in other situations.

For the purposes of the rules, the entire teeing ground is one place, no matter where you are on it.  There is nothing that says anything about recreating the lie or the shot.  If the rules were concerned with that then they would say to place the ball.  What a drop attempts to do is to factor in some of the randomness of the original lie.  Back when I first started, you didn't even drop at arms length like we do now.  You sort of rolled the ball backwards off you your shoulder blade which made it even more random.  The one thing that is definite is that the ball must not hit ground closer, nor roll closer to the hole than where the previous stroke was made.  Aside from that there is a slight bit of flexibility, meaning that if you drop a foot from your divot, nobody's going to ding you for it.  The divot is supposed to be taken in front of where the ball lay, so if the ball winds up back in the divot, it will almost always be closer to the hole than the original lie and you would have to redrop anyway.

In a bunker, you just take your chances.  I've had to drop in a bunker and it pretty much sucks, but that's life.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The divot is supposed to be taken in front of where the ball lay, so if the ball winds up back in the divot, it will almost always be closer to the hole than the original lie and you would have to redrop anyway.

It's like an officially codified incentive to practice ball-first contact.

[stangmark]

It is likely a local rule, posted on the course, or even your card, to repair/replace all divots made, as best you are able---so you can do that before re-hitting.  You are also not required to place your ball in an area of the course that has been altered or damaged (however, if the ball in play comes to rest in a divot or other damaged area not designated ground under repair, play it as it lies---a drop or placement is not a ball in play until it comes to rest, and if it comes to rest in an altered or damaged area, you may re-drop/re-place as many times as needed).  When applying stroke and distance, if re-hitting from the original lie, you place the ball as near to the original lie as possible, without advancing nearer to the hole---you don't drop; you set the ball on the ground.  Truth is, under these circumstances, it would be a penalty to hit your second ball from the altered/damaged area, as it may have improved your lie.

So, say your drive lands in the fairway and comes to rest in a divot someone else failed to repair---tough cookies, play it as it lies; and this shot from the divot goes out of bounds, and you create an even deeper gouge (or not, either way)---to re-hit with only one stroke added you must re-place your ball in that divot.

[luu5]

Getting your post count up? Like me... lol

May be you should read the thread first before adding anything to it, as it seems you did not get about anything correct in your post.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stangmark

It is likely a local rule, posted on the course, or even your card, to repair/replace all divots made, as best you are able---so you can do that before re-hitting.  You are also not required to place your ball in an area of the course that has been altered or damaged (however, if the ball in play comes to rest in a divot or other damaged area not designated ground under repair, play it as it lies---a drop or placement is not a ball in play until it comes to rest, and if it comes to rest in an altered or damaged area, you may re-drop/re-place as many times as needed).

Horsefeathers!

Quote:

When applying stroke and distance, if re-hitting from the original lie, you place the ball as near to the original lie as possible, without advancing nearer to the hole---you don't drop; you set the ball on the ground.  Truth is, under these circumstances, it would be a penalty to hit your second ball from the altered/damaged area, as it may have improved your lie.

So, say your drive lands in the fairway and comes to rest in a divot someone else failed to repair---tough cookies, play it as it lies; and this shot from the divot goes out of bounds, and you create an even deeper gouge (or not, either way)---to re-hit with only one stroke added you must re-place your ball in that divot.

More horsefeathers.  Dude you have a strangest idea of the rules of anyone I've never seen.  Anyone looking for actual answers, ignore this guy.