What kinda scores have you had using Stack and Tilt???

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Check out this article when you get a chance. It's about how the Stack and Tilt swing pattern is actually great for your back.

Not to rain on the  S&T; "scientific proof" parade, but as far as I see, "Dr. Troy Van Biezen" is a chiropractor, not an M.D.  You'll also note that even the S&T; advocates apparently were all careful to throw in the "if done correctly" qualifier.

My problem with S&T; is that from what I see, it works against your human anatomy.   Fighting your anatomy and gravity are losing battles.  Eventually your anatomy and gravity are going to win.

It also appears many of the pros who were trying it, have since abandoned it, though I may not be up to date about that.

But, if it works for you, more power to you.

Good catch with Dr. Van Biezen being a chiropractor. I don't know much about that subject, but from what I've heard, it has a lot of negativity surrounding it.

Ignoring that though, there is nothing involved with S&T; that hurts your back.

Can you name someone specific that you know that hurt their back using it -- someone who has worked with an authorized S&T; instructor? Because you are being very vague with your criticisms.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

It also appears many of the pros who were trying it, have since abandoned it, though I may not be up to date about that.

Aaron Baddeley has left. Mike Weir left but recently returned.

JJ Henry won the Reno-Tahoe open this year, which is the 14th win for a stack and tilter on Tour in the past seven seasons.

So yea, you'd be wrong about pretty much everything you've said concerning Stack and Tilt itself. In fact, a great deal of what they teach has actually trickled down quietly into the world of golf instruction as a whole -- yet has often not been footnoted or cited. The impact it has made on how golf is taught today can not be understated.

But of course, people who do no research would miss that.

There are still "racist" beliefs towards Stack and Tilt due to hand-me-down, incorrect information that's been passed around by people who have no clue what they are talking about. It's unfortunate.

[wadesworld]

Quote:

Can you name someone specific that you know that hurt their back using it -- someone who has worked with an authorized S&T; instructor? Because you are being very vague with your criticisms.

No, I can't.  I never said anything about anyone hurting their back.

What bothers me about Stack & Tilt as a philosophy is that it is not taking advantage of anatomy & gravity.  It's forcing your body into somewhat unnatural movement.  It's my belief that the most effective way to swing a golf club is to take maximum advantage of our anatomy and physics.  For example, when someone is taking the club back too far inside (or too far outside) they're fighting gravity.  The club will follow a natural arc, in a very repeatable way, if allowed to do so.

Now, with that said, pretty much any swing can be made to work with enough effort.  Look at Lee Trevino.  That's why you see guys on the course with horrible swings who are 5 handicaps.  However, it's my belief that swings which fight against gravity or anatomy will be in a constant battle with inconsistency.

As I said, if Stack & Tilt works for you, by all means go for it.  I just think urgency I see sometimes to push beginners into Stack & Tilt is not in their best interest.

However, I realize there are a lot of people on this site that are fully bought into Stack & Tilt, so I certainly don't expect agreement.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by wadesworld

No, I can't.  I never said anything about anyone hurting their back.

Yes you did. You made this post in response to what tecnicaskates said here:

Originally Posted by tecnicaskates

who is your chiropractor would be a more appropriate question?

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Quote:

Originally Posted by poser

you're an idiot

There's a significant number of people that think Stack & Tilt is fundamentally flawed, so while his delivery may not have been great, he's not out in left field.

However, that doesn't address the answer of scores.

***

Originally Posted by wadesworld

What bothers me about Stack & Tilt as a philosophy is that it is not taking advantage of anatomy & gravity.  It's forcing your body into somewhat unnatural movement.  It's my belief that the most effective way to swing a golf club is to take maximum advantage of our anatomy and physics.  For example, when someone is taking the club back too far inside (or too far outside) they're fighting gravity.  The club will follow a natural arc, in a very repeatable way, if allowed to do so.

There you go being vague again. "Anatomy and gravity?" Could you be any less specific about anything you are talking about? Please write something of substance so we can actually talk about this topic. What specifically about stack and tilt goes against anatomy and gravity? And what is the correct movement in regards to those specific criticisms?

Originally Posted by wadesworld

However, I realize there are a lot of people on this site that are fully bought into Stack & Tilt, so I certainly don't expect agreement.

I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of just disagreeing. You have yet to make a coherent argument why Stack and Tilt is bad. I hope that soon you will cite something or things specific with the pattern that are incorrect, and then stating why they are incorrect.

[wadesworld]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of just disagreeing. You have yet to make a coherent argument why Stack and Tilt is bad. I hope that soon you will cite something or things specific with the pattern that are incorrect, and then stating why they are incorrect.

Watch this video:

While it's just one video, other Stack & Tilt videos appear to teach the same thing.

To me, the movements suggested appear unnatural.  From the extremely inside takeaway, to the huge hip slide on the downswing, to the reverse-C on the follow-through.

Like I'm said, I'm sure there's scratch golfers or better using Stack & Tilt.  I didn't mean to start a holy war - I was originally just responding to the fact that while one of the responses might have been less than diplomatic, Stack & Tilt is certainly the subject of some controversy - I'm sure you wouldn't deny that.

I don't think I'm going to convince you that the issues I have with it are "right."

As for my "gravity" and "anatomy" comments, I make no secret I'm a fan of the teachings of Shawn Clement. It's important to point out that nothing he teaches is new or revolutionary. He just has a great teaching method, making his explanations and analogies very clear.

Why am I a fan?  Because he's done more for my golf swing than 35+ years of traditional instructors.  Not that my previous traditional instructors were bad, or even wrong.  However, they all taught club manipulation.  "Bring the club back more inside."  "Get your hands lower."  "Drag your knuckles along the ground."  "Throw your hip towards the target."  To me, that's what Stack & Tilt is.

All of these things were an attempt to get me into the right golf swing.  Once I could feel it, I'd get it.  However, I never felt it.  For 35 years, I tried manually swinging the club and muscling the ball.  That sounds ridiculous to those who are scratch golfers.  I believe there are those to whom the feel of a proper golf swing comes easily.  You know, the guy who picked up the game 2 years ago, had 1 lesson and is now playing at a 5 handicap.  I believe there are those who with enough conventional instruction, eventually get the proper feel.  And I believe there are those who never get the feel.

The laws of physics never change.  If you let gravity swing the club and use your anatomy in support of that, you'll make the most consistent swing possible. That just makes sense and it's hard for me to believe anyone could argue that point. Is it always going to be perfect?  Of course not.  There's too many moving parts for it always to be executed with 100% perfection. But I firmly believe that if you utilize physics, gravity & knowledge of what our anatomy allows, you're giving yourself the best chance possible.

It is possible that I'm misunderstanding the Stack & Tilt philosophy.  If it's your belief that S&T; is all about letting your body make its most natural motion so that gravity & physics can work, then I apologize for misplaced skepticism.  It just doesn't look like that to me.

[JetFan1983]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of just disagreeing. You have yet to make a coherent argument why Stack and Tilt is bad. I hope that soon you will cite something or things specific with the pattern that are incorrect, and then stating why they are incorrect.

Watch this video:

While it's just one video, other Stack & Tilt videos appear to teach the same thing.

The video doesn't work for me, but when I quoted the text it appears that it is the Golf Evolution video about how to hit the driver using the Stack and Tilt pattern. It's a great video. That said, they no longer teach to only hit down on the driver. They teach hitting up on it too. Both methods are correct, but one way can be better than the other given a person's swing or whatever.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

To me, the movements suggested appear unnatural.  From the extremely inside takeaway, to the huge hip slide on the downswing, to the reverse-C on the follow-through.

The "extremely inside takeaway" is not what you think it is. The hands swing inward to achieve depth . The clubhead stays outside the hands. Players who yank the club to the inside never play golf too well. In fact, the only time its a good idea to swing the club way to the inside is if you want to hit a hook around some kind of obstacle.

The hip slide is an incredible important move that has eluded golf instruction for decades. This thread will help your understanding of this:

The Biggest Secret: Slide Your HIps

The hips slide -- done correctly -- will put you in a finish position that puts the least amount of stress on your back.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Like I'm said, I'm sure there's scratch golfers or better using Stack & Tilt.  I didn't mean to start a holy war - I was originally just responding to the fact that while one of the responses might have been less than diplomatic, Stack & Tilt is certainly the subject of some controversy - I'm sure you wouldn't deny that.

No need to be dramatic about staring a "holy war." Someone like you -- who is misinformed over what Stack and Tilt actually is -- comes onto this forum once every couple of weeks or so. You are making all the common arguments made against S&T; (all of which are incorrect).

But, it's controversial because most people have no clue what it is and have gotten wrong information about it. Somewhere along the way, it became popular to bash it. I think really it was the Golf Digest article in 2007 that had too many exaggerated photographs used, and explanations that were too short included.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

I don't think I'm going to convince you that the issues I have with it are "right."

Hey, if you did, I'd shake your hand.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

As for my "gravity" and "anatomy" comments, I make no secret I'm a fan of the teachings of Shawn Clement.  It's important to point out that nothing he teaches is new or revolutionary.  He just has a great teaching method, making his explanations and analogies very clear.

Why am I a fan?  Because he's done more for my golf swing than 35+ years of traditional instructors.  Not that my previous traditional instructors were bad, or even wrong.  However, they all taught club manipulation.  "Bring the club back more inside."  "Get your hands lower."  "Drag your knuckles along the ground."  "Throw your hip towards the target."  To me, that's what Stack & Tilt is.

Shawn Clement is a great example of a teacher who says one thing and does another. To be fair, there are some in the Stack and Tilt community who like him as a teacher, but I'm not one of them. Sure, he's a nice guy, but IMO he's all style and no substance.

(And here's what i mean when I say cite something specific about Stack and Tilt that you don't like because I'm about to do that with Shawn Clement)

Here is Shawn at address. Pretty standard. Sets the club in the middle of his stance lIke Moe Norman, which is perfectly fine.

Note: All three photos should be viewed relative to where Shawn's head and hips are to the poster of an iron half behind the green net to our right.

Shawn at the top of his backswing. He has made a massive sway off the ball, and that is clearly shown in how up and out his head has moved. You see how much closer he is to that pipe in the background and how much higher the head is relative to that poster on the wall to the right of our view. His shoulders are turning too level, and this is why this move is happening.

Shawn makes a big hip slide in his downswing and clearly has a lot of secondary axis tilt . It's this sliding of the hips and the secondary axis tilt that results that shallows out the angle of attack -- a master move of Stack and Tilt (and any good golf swing for that matter). You'll notice he drops his head down too -- a perfectly timed move by Shawn. He's a highly adapted player. His talent level as a golfer is really incredible as I know he is better than scratch both left and right handed.

Can you see in these photos how far away his hips are at address from that poster of the iron in the background on the right? And do you see how much closer they are to that same poster at impact? He is clearly sliding his hips and his front knee has moved slightly outside his front foot (another sign of sliding hips).

To be honest, much of what S&T; is has been taught for a long time. Mac O'Grady has originated much of what we know in S&T; today (although certainly not entirely).

Originally Posted by wadesworld

All of these things were an attempt to get me into the right golf swing.  Once I could feel it, I'd get it.  However, I never felt it.  For 35 years, I tried manually swinging the club and muscling the ball.  That sounds ridiculous to those who are scratch golfers.  I believe there are those to whom the feel of a proper golf swing comes easily.  You know, the guy who picked up the game 2 years ago, had 1 lesson and is now playing at a 5 handicap.  I believe there are those who with enough conventional instruction, eventually get the proper feel.  And I believe there are those who never get the feel.

That's great that you have found something that has worked for you. But let's be honest. You've never tried Stack and Tilt nor do you know anything about it.

As for feel, it is different for everyone. We are all feel players, no matter how analytical a player claims to be. One thing important to understand is that feel isn't real, and that what you feel you might be doing might not be what you are actually doing. Frankly, we'd have to see your before and after swings with Shawn to know exactly what was changed.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

The laws of physics never change.

I totally agree, and Stack and Tilt fully supports that notion as well. However, when they say physics never change, they actually cite specific things within the realm of physics that support their claims.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

If you let gravity swing the club and use your anatomy in support of that, you'll make the most consistent swing possible.

Yea, I've heard Shawn say that many, many times. The problem is, it doesn't describe a whole lot.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

That just makes sense and it's hard for me to believe anyone could argue that point.

I'm arguing because it's so incredible vague, how can anyone know exactly what he's talking about. Players have different hand paths, different amounts of forearm roll, different rates of cocking the club, different shoulder angles, varying amounts of head movement, varying amounts of hip slide, varying amounts of shoulder rotation on the downswing (and at what speed), arm bending or no arm bending, setup alignments, grips. The list goes on and on. To say, "Just let gravity swing the club, mmmmkay?" just doesn't do it for me, or many others.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

I firmly believe that if you utilize physics, gravity & knowledge of what our anatomy allows, you're giving yourself the best chance possible.

Oh gawd, did you just use the word "utilize?" Yikes. I'll let that slide for now.

But yea, I agree. Using physics, anatomy, geometry, and biomechanics are great for understanding golf (though certainly not necessary for everyone).

Originally Posted by wadesworld

It is possible that I'm misunderstanding the Stack & Tilt philosophy.  If it's your belief that S&T; is all about letting your body make its most natural motion so that gravity & physics can work, then I apologize for misplaced skepticism.  It just doesn't look like that to me.

You are misunderstanding it, but there's nothing wrong with that; hence, why I'm taking the time to introduce it to you. I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just trying to show you a glimpse of what it actually is.

[wadesworld]

I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

You are incorrect that I've never tried Stack & Tilt.  I did have a pro try to move me in that direction.  It did not work for me.  Perhaps that's the source of some of my bias.

Quote:

Shawn Clement is a great example of a teacher who says one thing and does another. To be fair, there are some in the Stack and Tilt community who like him as a teacher, but I'm not one of them. Sure, he's a nice guy, but IMO he's all style and no substance.

Well, I'm sure if you frame-by-frame some Stack & Tilt instructors, you'll find they're not perfect at executing what they're saying.  I'm not sure what all style and no substance means.  With what do you disagree, other than he's not teaching stack & tilt?

Quote:

Yea, I've heard Shawn say that many, many times. The problem is, it doesn't describe a whole lot.

You're right, it doesn't.  But there's a totally different feel to swinging the club, and letting the club swing.  You've seen it.  Beginners swing the club.  They focus on hitting the ball.  Advanced players let the club swing and know that a good swing will hit the ball.

Quote:

I'm arguing because it's so incredible vague, how can anyone know exactly what he's talking about. Players have different hand paths, different amounts of forearm roll, different rates of cocking the club, different shoulder angles, varying amounts of head movement, varying amounts of hip slide, varying amounts of shoulder rotation on the downswing (and at what speed), arm bending or no arm bending, setup alignments, grips. The list goes on and on. To say, "Just let gravity swing the club, mmmmkay?" just doesn't do it for me, or many others.

Perhaps so.  But his key premise is that if you swing the club back with momentum, and let the club fall (not literally) with gravity, then the physics will force the correct swing path, the correct forearm rotation, the correct shoulder rotation, etc.  Now, that doesn't mean it will be perfect.  If we try to manually manipulate the club, we might manipulate it correctly, or we might not.  Or, we may get over-exhuberant with a particular move.  These are the things which constantly need correction.  There's no way I'm claiming it's a perfect swing, whether executed by him, me or anyone.  However, for me, it's easier to self-correct when I realize "Oh...I mishit that because I tried to swing the club.  On the next one, let's try letting gravity and momentum work better" instead of "hmm...I wonder if plane angle was too steep or if I cocked my wrists too late."

As to it being vague, I don't think he ever claims that it comes naturally.  In fact, it definitely takes time to get it.  We've all been trying to manually swing the club for so long, it's often hard to just get out of the way and let physics take control.

Anyhow, like I said, I appreciate the open and thoughtful response.  It has helped me to understand where you're coming from better.  Hopefully, I've done the same, even though I'm sure you believe my skepticism misplaced, ignorant, or both.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by wadesworld

I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

I appreciate the open and thoughtful response as well. I may come off as aggressive or whatever in my post, but I certainly respect your point of view and enjoy the debate. I just wanted to be clear on that.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

You are incorrect that I've never tried Stack & Tilt.  I did have a pro try to move me in that direction.  It did not work for me.  Perhaps that's the source of some of my bias.

Who was your S&T; instructor? There is only a small group of authorized guys who teach it. They do now have "Network" instructors who are currently in the teaching program, but are not yet certified. And of course, you have a small handful of guys like Erik for example who know the pattern backwards and forwards, but are not "authorized." But the reason I am asking is because there are so many teachers out there who claim to teach it, but really have no idea what it is either.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Well, I'm sure if you frame-by-frame some Stack & Tilt instructors, you'll find they're not perfect at executing what they're saying.  I'm not sure what all style and no substance means.  With what do you disagree, other than he's not teaching stack & tilt?

Stack and Tilt instructors certainly aren't infallible, and I can attest to that fact because I've had multiple lessons with them and they haven't always gotten what was wrong with me 100% correct. That said, they certainly know more about the golf swing than I do, so I'm just nitpicking. And also, there certainly are legitimate criticisms of S&T;, but they aren't sweeping, gross errors that would jeopardize the legitimacy of the entire philosophy.

And I have absolutely no problems with many non-S&T; teachers. In fact, the instructors on this website are not S&T; teachers, and I think they are excellent.

My problem with Shawn is that I don't like what he teaches in general. The way he philosophizes about the golf swing, to me, is convoluted and unnecessary. I just feel like he isn't actually saying anything when he speaks about golf mechanics.

Look, if you like him and he's making you better, than I think that's great, as there is more than one way to skin a cat in this game. I just don't like the whole "arm-club-unit" thing he does and how he never really goes into the specifics about how his golf swing actually functions.

However, you will see that Mike Bennett actually expresses what he teaches in his own swing. It's not perfect either, but the main crux of the movements he makes are exactly what he teaches to his students. The same can be said of his army of teachers, and most importantly, they are very open about the things they get wrong in their swings. I know my teacher complains about one or two things in his own swing all the time when I ask him about what he's working on (he's still a pro though).

Originally Posted by wadesworld

You're right, it doesn't.  But there's a totally different feel to swinging the club, and letting the club swing.  You've seen it.  Beginners swing the club.  They focus on hitting the ball.  Advanced players let the club swing and know that a good swing will hit the ball.

I disagree that it's that simple. To go from beginner or high handicapper to advanced or good at golf involves so many different things that are dependent on some many other things. It's not as easy as "letting the club swing."

Certainly though, a good instructor can simplify the specific thing he is getting his student to work on. One change at a time. In that regard, golf can be simple, but going from bad to good in this game is largely determined by a number of factors too long of a list to describe here.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Perhaps so.  But his key premise is that if you swing the club back with momentum, and let the club fall (not literally) with gravity, then the physics will force the correct swing path, the correct forearm rotation, the correct shoulder rotation, etc.  Now, that doesn't mean it will be perfect.  If we try to manually manipulate the club, we might manipulate it correctly, or we might not.  Or, we may get over-exhuberant with a particular move.  These are the things which constantly need correction.  There's no way I'm claiming it's a perfect swing, whether executed by him, me or anyone.  However, for me, it's easier to self-correct when I realize "Oh...I mishit that because I tried to swing the club.  On the next one, let's try letting gravity and momentum work better" instead of "hmm...I wonder if plane angle was too steep or if I cocked my wrists too late."

As to it being vague, I don't think he ever claims that it comes naturally.  In fact, it definitely takes time to get it.  We've all been trying to manually swing the club for so long, it's often hard to just get out of the way and let physics take control.

Anyhow, like I said, I appreciate the open and thoughtful response.  It has helped me to understand where you're coming from better.  Hopefully, I've done the same, even though I'm sure you believe my skepticism misplaced, ignorant, or both.

Trust me, you've been very open and thoughtful in your response here -- probably more so than I have. Like I said, I respect your position and your presentation of it.

Certainly I don't know everything there is to know about S&T; nor the golf swing at large, but I think you'll find if you get a chance to study it in depth and one day take a lesson or clinic from authorized S&T; people, you will find it is an incredibly empowering system that can give one the ability to better understand other golfing philosophies out there.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by inthehole

He said I'll never get any power without swaying back (at least with the driver) & promoting a big body shift forward.     I generate plenty of power for my game with S&T; mechanics (all my old back can handle) & anyways, thats the least of my worries - I'm focusing much more on mid iron and wedge accuracy lately ...

I'm sorry, but stay away from those types.  I wasted between $600 to $1K at Golftec (ran by a bunch of dudes within Golfsmith)... And it was a total drag and didn't help me at all.  I look back at their instruction... Which was the 'Power V' - some call it the 'Power Y' where your upper (torso/left shoulder) leaves the starting line... But your hips stay on the starting line.  This creates torque - and moves your head off the ball.  Was a drag on my game and I didn't improve at all.  And I'm amazed, nearly 8yrs later there are still morons teaching this to golfers.

Look guys... I'm being dead serious... Read this forum, learn about 5 Simple Keys (5SK) - and Stack and Tilt is one swing pattern that falls into 5SK.  You'll be better golfers. And run when you hear someone talk about shifting weight on your right side - without keeping a steady head.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Not to rain on the  S&T; "scientific proof" parade, but as far as I see, "Dr. Troy Van Biezen" is a chiropractor, not an M.D.  You'll also note that even the S&T; advocates apparently were all careful to throw in the "if done correctly" qualifier.

My problem with S&T; is that from what I see, it works against your human anatomy.   Fighting your anatomy and gravity are losing battles.  Eventually your anatomy and gravity are going to win.

It also appears many of the pros who were trying it, have since abandoned it, though I may not be up to date about that.

But, if it works for you, more power to you.

They throw that in because if you don't have a rounded spine at address - you can screw your back up.  If you check 'My Swing' thread you'll see I made comments on having the proper posture there too... When I first started to swing with SnT... I had two major issues:

1.) I had shin splints in my left shin.

2.) My lower back was experiencing a ton of stress.

Both issues are completely resolved now as I was able to strengthen my muscles in my calves, thighs and glutes... My issue with the shin splint wasn't a result of SnT... The issue was I wasn't playing golf for ~ 5yrs (or more) and had a pretty seditary lifestyle (was playing MMORPG's all the time and not doing anything to get outside).  So my shin splint was more of an issue of my left leg wasn't used to hitting ~ 100 balls a day!! LOL

My back has been perfectly fine once I fixed my posture at address.  The change in posture at address was so easy to change/implement... Did it feel a little different - or not natural at first? Yes, for about a week it felt different.  But it saved my back.  And now I have zero pain - and can hit 200+ balls without pain.

Here is the thread which talks about proper posture at address:

http://thesandtrap.com/t/56069/good-golf-posture

[Beachcomber]

Quote: Originally Posted by JetFan1983 Can you name someone specific that you know that hurt their back using it -- someone who has worked with an authorized S&T; instructor? Because you are being very vague with your criticisms.

I play in a men's league once a month... And there is a guy who is a low capper (2 to 4 range at the moment)... And he hits the ball a country mile off the tee - doesn't have that tight of dispersion on his irons. And will go as low as even par - but as high as low 80's on average. He told me when I went to Grant's instructional camp this past Spring that he tried SnT a few years back, but couldn't do it because it hurt his back. I never pressed him for any additional information... But I know his swing speed is a legit 125mph+. I'm sure if I really sat down with him on the range and worked with him to incorporate some of the changes Evolvr had me implement... That he could be a very successful SnT golfer - and not have any issues with his back. But I'm not going to push anything onto anyone that isn't asking for help.

[1puttit]

Great thread guys... Let's keep up the civil discussion

My 2 cents

Started playing golf in my early 30's. Played for 13 years and the best I ever did was usually mid 90's. My career best was an 89. Took up SnT in July 2009 after spending an entire winter working religiously in a dome, taking weekly lessons, etc.. and still playing like crap with zero power. Fast forward 3 years, I'm an 8 handicap, regularly shoot low 80's with a career best 76.

As for the back issues...

My son is 16 and has had some back problems (just the occasional sore back) off and on for about 6 years. He had a bad episode playing golf this summer (swings out of his shoes at 120% trying to kill it) and I took him to the doctor to check it out. Referred to a sports medicine physiologist who eventually diagnosed him with a fractured disc in his spine (L5 I believe) which is causing the disc to slide forward. Apparently this is an old injury probably as a result of gymnastics. Anyway, he has been an avid golfer since age 9, taken tons of lessons and is a pretty good player. Since the diagnosis he is forbidden from doing anything with a twisting motion - no golf.  He recently completed 6 weeks of physical therapy - about 1.5 hours of core muscle exercises daily. Doctor said he could try golf again if he modified his swing to take stress off his back. We showed the Dr. the SnT swing with the rounded shoulders at address (takes stress off lower back) and the straight  finish position with hips pushed forward. Doctor said that was the best swing she'd seen for golf as it related to taking stress off lower back and gave him the green light to start slowly working his way back in the game. Had a practice session last week with no back issues.

[Stretch]

I started taking golf seriously around the same time I signed up here, about 2.5 years ago at the age of 40. At the time, I would generally shoot in the 90s, even with some "fairly generous rulings." ;)

I have been working within the general S&T; framework ever since. It's not all or nothing and you certainly don't have to become the model overnight -- you prioritize and focus on the pieces that help you the most as you continue to develop as a golfer. Anyway, doing that got me breaking 80 inside six months, breaking par inside two years and hopefully breaking into the 60s sometime real soon -- as I've now shot 70 twice.

Please note I'm not claiming this proves that Stack And Tilt is the one true path to enlightenment, or any crap like that. Maybe I would have got the same (or even better) results putting in the same amount of effort -- quite a lot -- under the guiding influence of some other swing philosophy? Impossible to know. All I can say is that, in my opinion, S&T; is a fairly simple and entirely sensible way of thinking about the golf swing and identifying the key areas where most average golfers can improve. And that, in my experience, applying the system (with the benefit of competent instruction) in practice does indeed lead to significant improvement, in both golfing performance as measured by score and general enjoyment of the game.

[boogielicious]

This is such a tired old debate.  Saying S&T; hurts your back has as much validity as saying using golf balls made in China will give you herpes. Saying that the golf swing itself can hurt your back, now that may be more valid.

S&T; is a decent method of teaching the golf swing and it evolved from other methods.  "Revolutionary" was an unfortunate Marketing addition that should have been toned down.  It has caused a lot of venom to be spewed.  But, it is still a good teaching method and the book does an excellent job of explaining the physics of the swing.

My scores dropped dramatically when I started working with it and The Golf Evolution.  2009, high 90s average.  2010 attended S&T; clinic.  By end of year low 90s.  2011 high 80s.  2012, HC 11 averaging 80 - 83.  Add to that knee and shoulder surgeries in those years and that is pretty good.  BTW, those surgeries were from other injuries not golf.

That being said,  95% of S&T;, in my opinion, is the same as other good golf swings.  I didn't adhere to everything S&T; prescribed, but it got me started.  What it does do is put you in a position to make great contact with the ball.  Weight forward at impact is a universal fundamental of a good golf swing and every good player does this.  Hitting the ball before the ground is another.  S&T; works towards a push draw swing, which is desired by a lot of players.

Take it or leave it.  Use it or don't.  Read the book if you want more info.  But shitting on it without understanding what they wrote just makes you appear a foolish detractor without knowledge.

[mvmac]

S&T; was my introduction into how the body works to swing a golf club in a 3 dimension space along with the correct ball flight laws.  As I have said for the past 3 years "defending" Andy and Mike on various forums, there is waaay too much emphasis on the "loading left" aspect of the pattern.  It's a centered pivot swing, head stays steady, body and club move on an inclined plane.  If your head moves forward, which would be moving the weight left, you're not doing it right.

Probably the biggest influence to Andy and Mike was Mac O'Grady, who studied the human anatomy (eyes, vestibular system, knees, hips, spine).  That's why you see instructors advocating foot flares, seeing the ball out of your central vision, neck tilts, knees changing flex, spine chaining flex, so the body can accommodate to golfers playing with bent clubs and hit a ball off the ground that isn't moving.

Now back to the topic of the thread

[tecnicaskates]

If you read opinions from David Leadbetter, Jim Mclean, Harmon brothers, etc. guys who have taught multiple major winners.

Not one of them condones s&t;, the whole thing was a fad. A bunch of S&T; students won in a short period and then it became this revolutionary idea which in reality it is not at all. Nothing in golf is new. S&T; evolved from Mac Ogrady a guy who tried to play as a right and leftie. I think people fail to realize that this group of players are all exceptional putters compared to the average pga tour pro, they won those tournaments because they made putts plain and simple.

Mike Weir-major injuries, terrible play
Aaron Baddeley- went back to his old coach
Dean Wilson-played one event on the PGA tour this year
Tommy Armour III-think hes on the champs tour
Eric Axley-$7,000
Charlie Wie-1.6 million
Will MacKenzie-$49,000

Not exactly stellar play

If you play and practice only once a week you will never change your swing, go practice some putts and short game, save your money, because your paying for a marketing catch phrase and golf channel infomercials

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by tecnicaskates

If you read opinions from David Leadbetter, Jim Mclean, Harmon brothers, etc. guys who have taught multiple major winners.

Not one of them condones s&t;, the whole thing was a fad. A bunch of S&T; students won in a short period and then it became this revolutionary idea which in reality it is not at all. Nothing in golf is new. S&T; evolved from Mac Ogrady a guy who tried to play as a right and leftie. I think people fail to realize that this group of players are all exceptional putters compared to the average pga tour pro, they won those tournaments because they made putts plain and simple.

Mike Weir-major injuries, terrible play

Aaron Baddeley- went back to his old coach

Dean Wilson-played one event on the PGA tour this year

Tommy Armour III-think hes on the champs tour

Eric Axley-$7,000

Charlie Wie-1.6 million

Will MacKenzie-$49,000

Not exactly stellar play

If you play and practice only once a week you will never change your swing, go practice some putts and short game, save your money, because your paying for a marketing catch phrase and golf channel infomercials

The problem is guys like Leads, Harmon, McLean don't really know what Andy and Mike teach.  Good thing Mac came along and did his research.  He may not be 100% correct with everything he teaches but he's one of the most influential instructors in the game.

JJ won this year with Andy and Mike, Brad Faxon has won on the Champions Tour and Troy Matteson had some great ball striking years with them.  Mike Weir left Andy and Mike and sought instruction the past two years from Leads, McLean and Harmon.  He's working with Grant Waite now.

[Penny Pulz]

I have been doing the modified stack and tilt for 4 years with a huge improvement of solid ball striking with less practice. Hence consistent scoring. It is so easy to learn and teach this method. I love it for senior golfers. Stabilizing on the left leg is great for balance and the seniors feel more secure in finding the bottom of the arc. Mentally that is huge. As their confidence grows they begin to pick up speed, their golf swing is easy to repeat and now we can spend more time on what matters, golf course management.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Penny Pulz

I have been doing the modified stack and tilt for 4 years with a huge improvement of solid ball striking with less practice. Hence consistent scoring. It is so easy to learn and teach this method. I love it for senior golfers. Stabilizing on the left leg is great for balance and the seniors feel more secure in finding the bottom of the arc. Mentally that is huge. As their confidence grows they begin to pick up speed, their golf swing is easy to repeat and now we can spend more time on what matters, golf course management.

I think a lot of good players do a modified Stack and Tilt. It's only the original stock version that's controversial (and somewhat weaksauce when using the driver and long irons - be honest - we all know it is).