2012 Ryder Cup Discussion Thread

[Chas]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

When you're on a team, it's expected everyone gives 100% and the opposing team is seen as the enemy until the match is over.  Phil at 80% was still better than Furyk or Stricker at whatever level they were at.

Are you suggesting that Phil didn't give it 100% at any time while playing his matches, or that he didn't see the Europeans as the 'enemy'?

If so, please provide evidence.

[newtogolf]

I'm suggesting that asking to sit out of a match isn't consistent with someone willing to give 100%.  I'm also suggesting that giving encouragement and a "thumbs up" to your competitor after he sinks a tough putt isn't treating them like the enemy.

Originally Posted by Chas

Are you suggesting that Phil didn't give it 100% at any time while playing his matches, or that he didn't see the Europeans as the 'enemy'?

If so, please provide evidence.

[eich41]

This whole Ryder Cup Vet vs. Rookie/2nd Timer debate makes me laugh.  I think I'd rather have rookies or young guys in there that bring a lot of energy to the event, who REALLY want to be there.  When you look at the results, Keegan, Dufner, Snedeker, and Webb went a collective 9-6 in their matches, and that was with Snedeker playing with Furyk who flat out stunk all weekend.  Throw in the second time players Bubba and DJ, and the first and second timers were a collective 14-8.  Ryder cup experience couldn't be more overrated.  I'm not sure I'd want a whole team of rookies, but I'd rather have someone who is energetic and really wants it, than a guy who's been through the process 10 times before and is sort of going through the motions.

What does RC experience actually give you?  I don't care if it was Webb/Dufner/Keegan/Snedeker's first RC, those guys all have as much if not more game than any of the so called veterans.  Pressure you say?  Almost every one of those guys have won or been in a position to win a Major championship, which IMO is more pressure than the RC.  Plus when you look at the guys who folded like a cheap lawnchair on Sunday, they were all the veterans.  Captain's picks for "experience" are bad moves IMO.  Get these young guys with game and killer instinct out there, and leave the guys who on deck for the Champions Tour at home.

Bottom line, I'm not sure why there so much emphasis on players with RC experience, couldn't be more overrated IMO.

[jimdandy]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I'm suggesting that asking to sit out of a match isn't consistent with someone willing to give 100%.  I'm also suggesting that giving encouragement and a "thumbs up" to your competitor after he sinks a tough putt isn't treating them like the enemy.

Agreed. If you come in incapable of giving 100% and playing 5 matches, stay home.

And the Ryder Cup is a battle. Only a couple Americans treat it as such- Tiger, Zack for ex.  If you want to win, you show no mercy, like an Ian Poulter. Applauding "the enemy" is so weak, so Phil Mickelson. And with those gestures, clearly gave Rose supreme confidence teeing off on 475yd par 4 18th. Rose 2nd shot----wedge.

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by eich41

This whole Ryder Cup Vet vs. Rookie/2nd Timer debate makes me laugh.  I think I'd rather have rookies or young guys in there that bring a lot of energy to the event, who REALLY want to be there.  When you look at the results, Keegan, Dufner, Snedeker, and Webb went a collective 9-6 in their matches, and that was with Snedeker playing with Furyk who flat out stunk all weekend.  Throw in the second time players Bubba and DJ, and the first and second timers were a collective 14-8.  Ryder cup experience couldn't be more overrated.  I'm not sure I'd want a whole team of rookies, but I'd rather have someone who is energetic and really wants it, than a guy who's been through the process 10 times before and is sort of going through the motions.

What does RC experience actually give you?  I don't care if it was Webb/Dufner/Keegan/Snedeker's first RC, those guys all have as much if not more game than any of the so called veterans.  Pressure you say?  Almost every one of those guys have won or been in a position to win a Major championship, which IMO is more pressure than the RC.  Plus when you look at the guys who folded like a cheap lawnchair on Sunday, they were all the veterans.  Captain's picks for "experience" are bad moves IMO.  Get these young guys with game and killer instinct out there, and leave the guys who on deck for the Champions Tour at home.

Bottom line, I'm not sure why there so much emphasis on players with RC experience, couldn't be more overrated IMO.

This is how I feel.  If you want guys with experience to be part of the team..make them captains or whatever its called. Playerrs with WINNING experience would be the only experience I concern myself with.  I don't think theres any merit to Ryder Cup specific experience.   Once you get past the first two holes, all that goes out the window, anyway.  All the guys on tour have experience playing all three formats..what more is required?

[JohnLund]

I wish our dudes coulda won but just the same, it was an awesome contest! I love the Ryder Cup competition. Team play really puts some spark into the old game.

[Dave2512]

Considering that IJP was talking in interviews about having a beer with Team USA after the competition I don't think he's the stone cold killer folks here are making him out to be. That was on Sat. The aggression these guys show, the mugging and fist pumping, is about riling up the galleries. It's pro golfers as cheerleaders. This is golf not cage fighting. Nobody participating in the Ryder Cup is intimidated or soothed by the antics.

These guys are pro freakin' golfers. Justin Rose doesn't need Phil's approval to get out there and play hard. No doubt he had that in mind before he stepped on to the first tee. They all did. It worked out for some and others not so much. We've all been there. I'm not Mr. Congeniality when I am playing badly. Neither was Team Europe Fri-Sat. Until they won the last two matches on Sat they were walking sad sacks. IJP being the exception and only because he was on a roll. There were times he lacked fire on Sun when he was down in the match.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I'm suggesting that asking to sit out of a match isn't consistent with someone willing to give 100%.  I'm also suggesting that giving encouragement and a "thumbs up" to your competitor after he sinks a tough putt isn't treating them like the enemy.

I would argue that someone asking to sit out a match is not someone who's not WILLING to give 100%, but rather someone who is perhaps experienced and veteran enough to know that his 100% isn't going to be good enough.  Those are two TOTALLY different things.

How many times after a round (for that matter, any sporting competition) in an interview have you heard somebody say "I just didn't have it out there today?"

Well, perhaps he's been around long enough to know the team's best chance at winning points in the afternoon was from a rested Dustin Johnson or Jason Dufner.  Ever thought of that?

Originally Posted by jimdandy

Agreed. If you come in incapable of giving 100% and playing 5 matches, stay home.

And the Ryder Cup is a battle. Only a couple Americans treat it as such- Tiger, Zack for ex.  If you want to win, you show no mercy, like an Ian Poulter. Applauding "the enemy" is so weak, so Phil Mickelson. And with those gestures, clearly gave Rose supreme confidence teeing off on 475yd par 4 18th. Rose 2nd shot----wedge.

Enough already.  That is so beyond absurd, I don't even know where to start.  Confidence in oneself doesn't come from the approval of others (unless you think that Justin Rose is really insecure), it comes from playing well.

Another reason the Monday morning QB'ing of Mickelson strikes me as disingenuous is that I can already see what a lot of posts in this thread would look like had Mickelson agreed to go back out there and then lost.  "He shouldn't have gone out there" ... "How selfish of him" ... "I knew he was tired" ... "He's too old"  etc, etc, etc.

[newtogolf]

You make a fair point, but the option wasn't Dufner or DJ it was Stricker or Furyk.  Phil didn't even play a full 18 in the morning because they dominated their match.  How tired could he really have been to lead anyone to beleive that Stricker or Furyk were better options?

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I would argue that someone asking to sit out a match is not someone who's not WILLING to give 100%, but rather someone who is perhaps experienced and veteran enough to know that his 100% isn't going to be good enough.  Those are two TOTALLY different things.

How many times after a round (for that matter, any sporting competition) in an interview have you heard somebody say "I just didn't have it out there today?"

Well, perhaps he's been around long enough to know the team's best chance at winning points in the afternoon was from a rested Dustin Johnson or Jason Dufner.  Ever thought of that?

[jimdandy]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I would argue that someone asking to sit out a match is not someone who's not WILLING to give 100%, but rather someone who is perhaps experienced and veteran enough to know that his 100% isn't going to be good enough.  Those are two TOTALLY different things.

How many times after a round (for that matter, any sporting competition) in an interview have you heard somebody say "I just didn't have it out there today?"

Well, perhaps he's been around long enough to know the team's best chance at winning points in the afternoon was from a rested Dustin Johnson or Jason Dufner.  Ever thought of that?

Enough already.  That is so beyond absurd, I don't even know where to start.  Confidence in oneself doesn't come from the approval of others (unless you think that Justin Rose is really insecure), it comes from playing well.

Another reason the Monday morning QB'ing of Mickelson strikes me as disingenuous is that I can already see what a lot of posts in this thread would look like had Mickelson agreed to go back out there and then lost.  "He shouldn't have gone out there" ... "How selfish of him" ... "I knew he was tired" ... "He's too old"  etc, etc, etc.

First of all....Keegan and Phil were firing on all cylinders. Blowing away their competition. 2nd...they played 11 holes Saturday morning!

Davis made a huge mistake not putting the most dominant two-some out there in the afternoon. 11 holes and Phil "needs his rest"? Please

[Dave2512]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

You make a fair point, but the option wasn't Dufner or DJ it was Stricker or Furyk.  Phil didn't even play a full 18 in the morning because they dominated their match.  How tired could he really have been to lead anyone to beleive that Stricker or Furyk were better options?

Something to consider, which should be obvious, is there's more to the RC than being able to hack it physically. I don't doubt that those guys were mentally spent after doing so well. It's not the typical tournament. They still had to go out and play Sun. If it was just about being rested they should have been able to continue the success but they didn't. If even they would have been out there and scored another point we don't know that it would have mattered. Nothing that happened on any day was predicatable. If someone would have said it would have been 10-6 in the favor of USA at the close of Sat chances are that would have been called BS. We don't know who they would have been matched up against and we don't know with certainty they would have won. If Sun proved anything it's that things at the RC can turn on a dime.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by jimdandy

And the Ryder Cup is a battle. Only a couple Americans treat it as such- Tiger, Zack for ex.  If you want to win, you show no mercy, like an Ian Poulter. Applauding "the enemy" is so weak, so Phil Mickelson. And with those gestures, clearly gave Rose supreme confidence teeing off on 475yd par 4 18th. Rose 2nd shot----wedge.

This is so beyond ridiculous.  Clearly, Ian Poulter knows a lot more about winning golf tournaments than Phil Mickelson.  And if Phil hadn't given Rose the thumbs up, he would have blocked his tee shot on 18 into the trees.

Maybe Phil should have also asked Tiger for a ride home on his jet.  That would have clenched the win.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

You make a fair point, but the option wasn't Dufner or DJ it was Stricker or Furyk.  Phil didn't even play a full 18 in the morning because they dominated their match.  How tired could he really have been to lead anyone to beleive that Stricker or Furyk were better options?

I don't know how tired he was ... and that is kind of my point.  None of us do.  I guess what I am really saying is that I don't like the idea that we (as fans and outsiders) like to jump to conclusions about people's character.  I don't know Phil Mickelson, or any of the other players in the Ryder Cup, and because of that, I am giving them all the benefit of the doubt when it comes to heart and drive.  (They've all made it to the top 0.0001%, or whatever, of their field, I would say that tells you something right there)

Another Monday morning QB scenario ... and this one is much easier to see:  If Rose doesn't sink just one of those last three amazing putts - and no matter what anybody here says, those are all out of Phil's control - then the US almost certainly goes on to win and we are on here praising him for his unselfish team play in asking to be rested on Saturday afternoon so he could come out fresh on Sunday when it counted.

[jimdandy]

Originally Posted by k-troop

This is so beyond ridiculous.  Clearly, Ian Poulter knows a lot more about winning golf tournaments than Phil Mickelson.  And if Phil hadn't given Rose the thumbs up, he would have blocked his tee shot on 18 into the trees.

Maybe Phil should have also asked Tiger for a ride home on his jet.  That would have clenched the win.

Ian Poulter is statistically the best Ryder Cup player in history. His match play tournament stats over the years are stellar. So are Tiger's. See a similarity? Crystal....

Phil.... not a good match game player.

[TakeItOnTheChin]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I don't k If Rose doesn't sink just one of those last three amazing putts - and no matter what anybody here says, those are all out of Phil's control - then the US almost certainly goes on to win and we are on here praising him for his unselfish team play in asking to be rested on Saturday afternoon so he could come out fresh on Sunday when it counted.

If if if

its a very big word!

[Joakim]

Originally Posted by k-troop

This is so beyond ridiculous.  Clearly, Ian Poulter knows a lot more about winning golf tournaments than Phil Mickelson.  And if Phil hadn't given Rose the thumbs up, he would have blocked his tee shot on 18 into the trees.

Maybe Phil should have also asked Tiger for a ride home on his jet.  That would have clenched the win.

The problem was not Phil playing the last match on Sat., he wanted to sit so sit him. He's old and has trouble finishing. The problem with Phil is he demanded from DL3 to sit Keegan as well. Keegan is young and on a tremendous roll. Did you see how unhappy he was next to Phil when they were getting interviewed. The problem with Phil is the most SELF SERVING individual on tour.

He didn't want anyone sharing the emotion and victory Keegan would have brought to the afternoon match.

Look what happened to Keegan the next day after he sat In Ryder cup history has anyone sat after going 3-0?? DL3 is to blame because he allowed his player to manage. Congrats Phil, You gave up on Saturday and on the 15th on Sunday. That is why we lost and continue to lose. Arnold Palmer said after the match, you can get all the rest you want on monday.

[Dave2512]

Keegan lost because he played the world number 1 who started playing like the world number one on Sun. Seriously some the shots Rory hit on Sun were amazing. That chip he bounced off the bank was crazy. Phil lost because Rose sank some amazing putts late in the match. How about giving credit where due? Those guys played some great golf. US didn't lose as much as Europe won. They played their hearts out and were rewarded for it. Just a day before the media was questioning them just like people are questioning the Team USA now. Even Monte was bagging on Team Europe.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by Joakim

The problem with Phil is he demanded from DL3 to sit Keegan as well. Keegan is young and on a tremendous roll.

The problem with Phil is the most SELF SERVING individual on tour.  He didn't want anyone sharing the emotion and victory Keegan would have brought to the afternoon match.

Look what happened to Keegan the next day after he sat In Ryder cup history has anyone sat after going 3-0??

Congrats Phil, You gave up on Saturday and on the 15th on Sunday.

Where to start with this nonsense?

--Is there any evidence that Phil demanded that Keegan sit on Saturday?  Where did that even come from?

--Phil the most self serving guy on tour, who couldn't stand another player winning a match?  Do you really believe this?

--What happened to Keegan on Sunday is he ran into Rory, who went 5-under (3rd best round of the day) without hitting a warm-up shot.

--And, again, where do you get Phil giving up on Sunday?  He parred the last 3 holes, which is far more than you can say for the majority of the US squad.