2012 Ryder Cup Discussion Thread

[k-troop]

I seriously don't get all of the hate on Phil Mickelson for acknowledging Rose's great play.

Rose made a clutch par save on 16, then dropped an absolute bomb on 17.  Both were long putts with sick break, but the putt on 17 was legend.  I remember watching the putt and being somewhat astonished and impressed.  Phil's expression was exactly that.  He looked like, "That was a freaking amazing putt--wow!"  His reaction was very sportsmanlike, and frankly, very Phil-like.  I remember thinking that I was impressed by his reaction.

Apparently many here would have preferred that Phil scream out f-bombs when Rosie dropped those two putts.  Maybe slam his putter into the side of his bag.  At least put on a stone-faced scowl and stomp off to the next tee.  Has anyone, BTW, ever seen Phil do this under any circumstances?

Part of playing great golf under pressure situations is staying emotionally even.  Where you get in trouble is when you start having wild emotional swings, especially when wild emotional swings are not in your nature.  Asking Phil to be an a-hole to a competitor is like asking Kuch to drop f-bombs on the course, or Z.Johson to scream out GD whenever he blocks a tee shot.  It wouldn't have suited his game any better.

Apart from the apparent illogic of expecting Phil to play better by doing something completely out of his character is this fiction that he somehow didn't want to win enough.  Did you watch Phil on Friday and Saturday?  Did you watch him walking to the first tee?  How about after he made that putt on 14 to go 1 up with 4 to play?  He was clearly jazzed.  And it's not like he hacked up the last 3 holes.  He finished par-par-par, which was probably more than a half-shot better than the US Team average on 16-18 yesterday.

[Vermeer]

Originally Posted by phan52

I think Molinari wa a bit confused about the situation, but I think it was incumbent on Olazabel to go out on the green and go "good-good" when they both had three footers left. But he doesn't have that in him. Olazabel doesn't strike me as the conciliatory type.

Olazabel had approached Molinari before his shot into the green, telling him it is important that the hole is played out to try and win the cup outright. Incumbent on Olazabel to go onto the green and say good-good? Doesn't have that in him ? What right does he have saying good-good, he would have to assume Woods and Love would agree to it.

More to the point,why did Woods give Molinari's putt. If he had missed Team USA would not have lost the Ryder Cup, Europe would have  only retained it just as they did at the Belfry a few years ago - which at the time an obviously disappointed Tom Kite reminded them of !

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Monte the Bear

Good point, quite why no-one is ragging on Snedeker for a complete choke against a European journeyman, and ragging on Webb Simpson for shanking a ball I don't know. At least Simpson has a major though and Snedeker...well he's got a few quid to play with in the off season.

Lawrie is the one who made his team on points and Snedeker is the one who was a Captain's choice. Kind of disrespectful to a very deserving participant.

[Vermeer]

Originally Posted by phan52

I think Molinari wa a bit confused about the situation, but I think it was incumbent on Olazabel to go out on the green and go "good-good" when they both had three footers left. But he doesn't have that in him. Olazabel doesn't strike me as the conciliatory type.

Olazabel had approached Molinari before his shot into the green, telling him it is important that the hole is played out to try and win the cup outright. Incumbent on Olazabel to go onto the green and say good-good? Doesn't have that in him ? What right does he have saying good-good, he would have to assume Woods and Love would agree to it.

More to the point,why did Woods give Molinari's putt. If he had missed Team USA would not have lost the Ryder Cup, Europe would have  only retained it just as they did at the Belfry a few years ago - which at the time an obviously disappointed Tom Kite reminded them of !

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Vermeer

Olazabel had approached Molinari before his shot into the green, telling him it is important that the hole is played out to try and win the cup outright. Incumbent on Olazabel to go onto the green and say good-good? Doesn't have that in him ? What right does he have saying good-good, he would have to assume Woods and Love would agree to it.

More to the point,why did Woods give Molinari's putt. If he had missed Team USA would not have lost the Ryder Cup, Europe would have  only retained it just as they did at the Belfry a few years ago - which at the time an obviously disappointed Tom Kite reminded them of !

The Woods/Molinari match ceased to mean anythng once Kaymer holed his putt. The Cup was going back to Europe. It's called sportsmanship, something that Olazabal was crying about back in 1999. Don't be a hypocrite, Ollie.

[misty_mountainhop]

Originally Posted by longbow

Hey Golf Man which match did you watch?  The single most stupid post is yours trying to analyze what Love was trying to do.  What his strategy did was cost us the Ryder Cup which isn't to hard to see.  I mean 4.5 points is what he had to win.  These choke monsters couldn't even do that.  I mean he didn't realize that the Euro's were going to try and start hard and fast?  Give me a break.  When the U.S. players had to hit shots and make putts count they just plain didn't.  As we saw the first 2 days don't win the Cup.  The U.S. was just pathetic.  Plain and simple.  Any other way of looking at it is trying to find a bright spot on a day when there were none.  The U.S. choked for whatever reason.   The worst playing performance  by a U.S. team I've ever witnessed and that is being kind and this is pretty much the outlook on all the sports channels, new articles etc.etc.  These guys play at the highest levels and didn't get it done when they needed to get it done.

And I'm sure they think well of you too.

Originally Posted by phan52

The Woods/Molinari match ceased to mean anythng once Kaymer holed his putt. The Cup was going back to Europe. It's called sportsmanship, something that Olazabal was crying about back in 1999. Don't be a hypocrite.

No. Sorry. I don't buy that for a second. I'm sure you would have been saying the same wouldn't you if it had been the U.S. as holders reaching 14-13 with one match remaining? Yeah, sure, you'd have been all for calling the last 'dead' match a win for Europe thereby halving the match overall instead of trying to actually win the whole shebang? Thought not.

Additionally, if I'm Molinari, you're not conceding my match on a day like that.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by misty_mountainhop

And I'm sure they think well of you too.

No. Sorry. I don't buy that for a second. I'm sure you would have been saying the same wouldn't you if it had been the U.S. as holders reaching 14-13 with one match remaining? Yeah, sure, you'd have been all for calling the last 'dead' match a win for Europe thereby halving the match overall instead of trying to actually win the whole shebang? Thought not.

Additionally, if I'm Molinari, you're not conceding my match on a day like that.

Well, since the tie goes to the defender, that is a ludicrous suggestion. But if the shoe was on the other foot, absolutely, call it a tie and move on. Making Tiger and Molinari finish that match was pointless. Europe kept the Cup.

The President's Cup does it the right way. Once the winner/defender of the Cup is decided, they suspend play.

[Joakim]

Originally Posted by misty_mountainhop

And I'm sure they think well of you too.

No. Sorry. I don't buy that for a second. I'm sure you would have been saying the same wouldn't you if it had been the U.S. as holders reaching 14-13 with one match remaining? Yeah, sure, you'd have been all for calling the last 'dead' match a win for Europe thereby halving the match overall instead of trying to actually win the whole shebang? Thought not.

Additionally, if I'm Molinari, you're not conceding my match on a day like that.

That half point was HUGE. For everyone that placed bets on a 14-14 tie, it paid 12-1.

[Vermeer]

Originally Posted by phan52

Well, since the tie goes to the defender, that is a ludicrous suggestion. But if the shoe was on the other foot, absolutely, call it a tie and move on. Making Tiger and Molinari finish that match was pointless. Europe kept the Cup.

The President's Cup does it the right way. Once the winner/defender of the Cup is decided, they suspend play.

Tell Tom Kite that !

Surely you can understand the difference between keeping the Cup and winning it ? Tiger can't but Kite can ! Retaining it is effectively a draw.

[k-troop]

I will say that I'm proud of the US Team.  They played well in team play and put together some seriously good matches on Friday and Saturday.  On Sunday they just got thumped.  The Euro team came out looking to kick some arse, and they did just that.

Luke shot -4.

Poulter shot -2.

Rory was -5.

Rose shot -6.

Lawrie was -6 thru 15.

That's the first 5 points of the day for Europe, and Poulter was the only Euro who didn't post a round in the 60s.  You can say that Bubba played like crap against Donald, but he beat Z. Johnson and tied D. Johnson (meaning both would have lost to Donald) based strictly on score.  Dufner was by far our best player yesterday, and he still wouldn't have beaten any of Euro's first 5 save for Poulter (based strictly on scores).

Clearly the dynamics of match play is more than just comparing scores, but the scores say something.

Pinning this loss on the US order of play is misguided, IMO.  Pinning it on DL3's failure to play Keegan Saturday afternoon, or picking Furyk/Stricker as Captain's picks, is more reasonable.  Still, there were reasonable justifications for all of those decisions at the time--it's pretty easy to second guess them now, but we're not there making those decisions.  (And BTW if he had picked Mahan, and Mahan got blanked, people would have been screaming about how stupid that was.)

I'm not happy at the US loss yesterday, but I don't look at it as a choke or a coaching blunder.  The Euro team stepped up and kicked bootay.  11 out of 12 US players would have (likely) posted scores 70 or worse.   8/12 Euros would have posted 70 or better.  I will remember this as a day that Euro came together and played some amazing golf, and ripped the Cup from our hands.

[jimdandy]

Originally Posted by Vermeer

Tell Tom Kite that !

Surely you can understand the difference between keeping the Cup and winning it ? Tiger can't but Kite can ! Retaining it is effectively a draw.

Are you really this ignorant?? Did that massive European celebration look like a "draw" to you?

Lol, can't make this stuff up people.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by Joakim

That half point was HUGE. For everyone that placed bets on a 14-14 tie, it paid 12-1.

Sorry, but that's a pointless comment IMO.  For everyone that placed bets on the US to win by a full point, then Tiger's half point and Phil's full point were "critical".

It's about the sportsmanship of the matches and the end result of the competition.  Whether a bet was won or lost is irrelevant to anyone except that person, and frankly I don't care whether you won your bet.

The half point did matter, because a 14-1/2 to 13-1/2 "win" means a lot more than "not losing" 14-14.  But it has nothing to do with bets.

[Pablo68]

Europe played great and never wavered from Saturday afternoon on; the U.S. didn't.

Just like 'Titanic'........no matter how many times you tell it or from what perspective, the damn thing sunk. Period. End of story.

Hopefully in two years the guys that DID play well Sunday (all the way through) will help the ones who didn't stay focused and keep their intensity. Get hungry and stay hungry.

[k-troop]

Further, anyone who thinks that Phil deserves to be black-listed from future cups is just plain crazy.  He won 3 matches outright, and by huge margins.  He has a ton of Ryder Cup experience.  And he took the lead in his singles match on 14, at the critical moment.  He lost 2 out of the last 3 holes to a guy who dropped 3 huge putts in a row.  IMO, Phil's Ryder Cup stock went way up this week.

And that's even after last year, when Phil stepped in front of the train that was bearing down on Hunter at the presser, a guy who out-played Phil for 3 days, but missed an easy shot at a critical moment.

[Joakim]

Originally Posted by k-troop

Sorry, but that's a pointless comment IMO.  For everyone that placed bets on the US to win by a full point, then Tiger's half point and Phil's full point were "critical".

It's about the sportsmanship of the matches and the end result of the competition.  Whether a bet was won or lost is irrelevant to anyone except that person, and frankly I don't care whether you won your bet.

The half point did matter, because a 14-1/2 to 13-1/2 "win" means a lot more than "not losing" 14-14.  But it has nothing to do with bets.

I don't bet on golf.Guanteed Tiger would have at least pared that hole if RC was on the line and gotten the point. He spent no time looking over his chip and putt and gave the putt to Molinari.

Tiger was dejected at that point and so was I. I agree with you that was not really the right attitude but I didn't care either way at that point because we had already LOST. Others will disagree and I respect their opinion.

[newtogolf]

I'm a huge Phil fan and agree that he shouldn't be black listed.  That said, I would have preferred that he didn't ask to sit out the afternoon match (expecially since he didn't play a full round in the morning) and waited to give props to Rose until after the match ended.

When you're on a team, it's expected everyone gives 100% and the opposing team is seen as the enemy until the match is over.  Phil at 80% was still better than Furyk or Stricker at whatever level they were at.

Originally Posted by k-troop

Further, anyone who thinks that Phil deserves to be black-listed from future cups is just plain crazy.  He won 3 matches outright, and by huge margins.  He has a ton of Ryder Cup experience.  And he took the lead in his singles match on 14, at the critical moment.  He lost 2 out of the last 3 holes to a guy who dropped 3 huge putts in a row.  IMO, Phil's Ryder Cup stock went way up this week.

And that's even after last year, when Phil stepped in front of the train that was bearing down on Hunter at the presser, a guy who out-played Phil for 3 days, but missed an easy shot at a critical moment.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

Europe played great and never wavered from Saturday afternoon on; the U.S. didn't.

Just like 'Titanic'........no matter how many times you tell it or from what perspective, the damn thing sunk. Period. End of story.

Hopefully in two years the guys that DID play well Sunday (all the way through) will help the ones who didn't stay focused and keep their intensity. Get hungry and stay hungry.

Stay thirsty my friend.  Stay thirsty.

[Mr. Desmond]

Phil seems like a great guy, possibly far from the days of FIGJAM. Maybe he went over the top, maybe he didn't.

We live and learn the lessons.

Team USA lost as a team. Pointing fingers is ... uh ... pointless.