i have no interest in "teeing it forward"

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="meenman" url="/t/63387/i-have-no-interest-in-teeing-it-forward/198#post_1161393"]   How fun is it shooting 3 digit scores? At a 22 playing back tees, you are not breaking 100 often. I had friends like you guys (mind you they are much older) - it took me years to finally convince them to move up. All of them are long hitters and they are now enjoying the game a lot more moving up. None of us has had our index change much, but our scores are lower - that is the beauty of the handicap system - it takes all of that into consideration. [/QUOTE] You are overestimating the length the back tees are at my local courses I think. Even the back tees here tend to hover around 6600 max yards and don't really bring any extra trouble into the picture.

6600 seems to be a reasonable distance, but if you're struggling to make pars try playing a much shorter course and teeing off with a 5i or 4i.

[Jeremie Boop]

I played at 6600 for years because my friends wouldnt move up - every yard adds more trouble for a higher HCer.

One mistake and I would shoot a 102.

Now from 6000 yards, 90 is breakable and I have to be really hungover to fear the triple digit score.

The change for me was 3 holes, one par 4 that went from guaranteed double to almost automatic bogey with a great par chance, a par 3 that is now hittable instead of a 190 yard shot that allowed for no mistake and another par 4 with a forced carry that took a left side tree out of play off the tee.

Now i do not use driver on every hole (although I can) - there is something about playing smarter vs hitting as far as you can.

I understand what you are saying, but I can play a short course with a low rating or a longer course with a higher rating and still shoot mid 90's. My high scores tend to be because of OB from the tee, so how tight a course is with OB areas is more likely to cause me problems then a course that has some forced carries and extra distance. I already said I play the typical "men's" tees when I play, but I'm interested in seeing what moving back would do. It's possible that it would hurt me, but it's also possible that it wouldn't have any significant impact in my scores while the increased ratings would lower my index. I just think it's something worth trying for a few rounds to see.

6600 seems to be a reasonable distance, but if you're struggling to make pars try playing a much shorter course and teeing off with a 5i or 4i.

I typically have mostly bogey/par as scores. As stated above, it's typically an OB off the tee that gets me into trouble causing some ESCs a few times a round. Now, when I can avoid those as I did last night, I score a lot better. Without any lost balls I shot an 87 last night, with 1 triple and 2 doubles.

[meenman]

I understand what you are saying, but I can play a short course with a low rating or a longer course with a higher rating and still shoot mid 90's. My high scores tend to be because of OB from the tee, so how tight a course is with OB areas is more likely to cause me problems then a course that has some forced carries and extra distance. I already said I play the typical "men's" tees when I play, but I'm interested in seeing what moving back would do. It's possible that it would hurt me, but it's also possible that it wouldn't have any significant impact in my scores while the increased ratings would lower my index. I just think it's something worth trying for a few rounds to see.

Nothing wrong with experimenting - its the only way you will find the truth. But most golfers hit shorter clubs with more accuracy. I know I have better luck hitting greens with an 8 iron than i do with a 4 hybrid.

[Jeremie Boop]

Nothing wrong with experimenting - its the only way you will find the truth. But most golfers hit shorter clubs with more accuracy. I know I have better luck hitting greens with an 8 iron than i do with a 4 hybrid.

No doubt there, that's an absolute truth. However, we aren't talking about me going from 8 iron to 4 hybrid shots. More like wedge to 8 iron at most. While that's still an increase in distance it's a much more manageable change.

[billchao]

My *knowledge* of your game was based on your previous post. You obviously like to play tees based on your one in a million shot, good for you - but teeing it forward will not hurt your game either.

Hasn't helped. I've played from shorter tees. Apparently they don't make holes any wider. And you still have to make the putt.

The thing is, you just don't understand where and how I miss, and that's fine. We don't need to get into that here. I'm not interested in playing the game with just the mid-irons and down.

When you make a statement about playing from the tips, it comes across differently - colors mean nothing because they vary from course to course - when you say *tips* - it usually means back tees.

With the exception of two of those courses I listed, they are the tips. They're just not that long around here.

If they learned to hit their shorter clubs, the score may come down.

You can learn to hit the longer clubs better and the scores will come down, as well. The difference is, learning to hit my driver, 3 wood, or hybrids better will have a greater affect on my game overall. If I only played with the shorter clubs, I'd be SoL when I got to a hole that requires a driver.

Just hitting the ball a long ways is not a guaranteed indicator that you should play back tees.  You need some semblance of control too.  If your handicap is that high then some part of your game clearly needs work, and since for most people the driver is one of the more difficult clubs to hit, that is where most instructors would begin questioning.  Long and wrong will always play slower than shorter and not so wrong.  There is no shame in playing a 3W from a shorter tee set.  Or from choking down on the driver and hitting it shorter.

Trust me, I've tried every trick in the book to get the driver working better for me. I finally just accepted that I just need to swing better. 3W, BTW, is not a better alternative than a driver. Turns out I can hit that club into another zip code, too. Just slightly closer

I don't know you or anything about your game, but a 19.5 index tells me that you aren't getting the job done, and often that means that the player isn't keeping the ball in play off the tee.

The only way I can guarantee that I'll keep the ball in play off the tee is if I tee off with a 5 iron or something. What I give up in distance makes the approach shot harder. Turns out, in the long run, the score isn't much different. I don't have any data to back it up, but I'd be willing to bet that teeing off with the driver would yield lower scores in the long run than teeing off with an iron, for me. It's not like every drive is OB or unplayable.

I get the impression that you guys seem to think that teeing it forward translates automatically to lower scores. Maybe that's the case for you, but I haven't found that to be true for myself.

None of us has had our index change much, but our scores are lower - that is the beauty of the handicap system - it takes all of that into consideration.

You're not actually improving, then, you're just shooting lower scores? I'm interested in improvement, not just shooting lower scores. If I wanted to just shoot lower scores, there's an executive course near me I know I can go out and shoot in the 70's tomorrow.

[Jakester23]

Nothing wrong with experimenting - its the only way you will find the truth. But most golfers hit shorter clubs with more accuracy. I know I have better luck hitting greens with an 8 iron than i do with a 4 hybrid.

I honestly don't have fun hitting all short irons into greens. If score was all that mattered I'd play the reds exclusively. I don't want to hit driver wedge on every par 4. A well struck long iron feels so sweet.

[newtogolf]

I'm not saying I don't want to be able to reach par 5's in two, but when par 5's become 440 yards, they're not really par 5's anymore.

I do the exact same thing. When I'm grinding, it's not because of the length of the course, it's because I'm swinging like . Like I said, moving up won't change that one bit.

I don't know. I feel like you're supposed to hit irons or something? I admit it wasn't really a well thought out statement. I've played courses from different sets of tees, different courses of different lengths, etc. and I've found that I still average the same amount of GIR/round. My game is a little anomalous.

I spoke too quickly. I play from the blues. Some courses, they're the tips. Others, as in the case of a couple of courses I started playing this year, have a championship tee as the tips. I don't play them. In case you're wondering, the yardages of the tees I usually play are: 6273, 3350 (9 holes), 6397, 6034, 6226, 2348 (9 holes), 7025. With the exception of the last one, I doubt anybody would consider them long.

Anyway as I understand it, tee selection should be based on how far you can hit the ball, not your handicap. Yes, distance is the largest determinant for difficulty, but it's not why I don't score well. As it turns out, hitting shots into the next zip code is not good for one's golf game.

If you're suggesting that I'll shoot better scores simply from having higher "golf IQ" or whatever, I have to disagree with you. I'll play better once I stop missing so dramatically. If you're suggesting that I tee off with something I'm guaranteed to keep in play, I'm still going to disagree with you. I'm not going to play golf with nothing but 6 iron and down. If you're suggesting I don't actually hit the ball a pretty good distance, then I don't know what to tell you.

I didn't say I always do that. I said, "when I drive well." I also never said that I'm actually hitting the greens in 2, just that I can reach them when I hit a good drive. Anyway, since you seem to have pretty good knowledge of my game, where do you think I can cut some strokes?

Edit: Don't worry about what I'm doing. Nobody is being held up no the course on my account.

I took a look at some of the Game Golf rounds you posted and overall your drive average distance isn't as high as you might think.  I see you hit one 275+ once or twice a round but those are offset by some drives that are 90 - 220 yards.  I would think using your average drive rather than longest is the better method to pick tees.

[Jakester23]

I took a look at some of the Game Golf rounds you posted and overall your drive average distance isn't as high as you might think.  I see you hit one 275+ once or twice a round but those are offset by some drives that are 90 - 220 yards.  I would think using your average drive rather than longest is the better method to pick tees.

I don't think driver distance is a great way to pick tees.

[newtogolf]

I don't think driver distance is a great way to pick tees.

I agree, but that was the initial reasoning for his choice of the back tees.

[billchao]

I took a look at some of the Game Golf rounds you posted and overall your drive average distance isn't as high as you might think.  I see you hit one 275+ once or twice a round but those are offset by some drives that are 90 - 220 yards.  I would think using your average drive rather than longest is the better method to pick tees.

Anything less than 200 yards is clearly a gross mis-hit of some kind: topped, pop-up, duck hook, random carom off a tree, etc. They're exactly the kind of shots I'm saying cost me strokes, but moving up a set of tees would do anything for. GameGolf is great for a lot of things, but it fails to factor things like wind, elevation change, or the "fullness" of your swing in its calculations. It tells me my expected driver distance is something like 250 and that's kind of what I go by, based on experience on the course and the range, etc. I've played enough golf to know what my target distances are with my clubs. Average distance is a poor way to GamePlan anything, anyway. I'd be screwed if I was planning on a 200 yard drive and ended up hitting it 50 yards long. Hell, I think my average 7 iron is like 80 yards or something, since I punch out with it so much. At this point I don't know what else I can tell you guys. I've played rounds without a driver. I've played only hitting irons. I used to play predominantly from shorter tees. I've outdriven people with my 5 iron before, straight down the middle of the fairway and still scored worse on the hole. None of it changes anything. My handicap is still garbage. Moving back didn't change that, so I stayed. It's part of how I want to enjoy the game.

[newtogolf]

Anything less than 200 yards is clearly a gross mis-hit of some kind: topped, pop-up, duck hook, random carom off a tree, etc. They're exactly the kind of shots I'm saying cost me strokes, but moving up a set of tees would do anything for.

GameGolf is great for a lot of things, but it fails to factor things like wind, elevation change, or the "fullness" of your swing in its calculations. It tells me my expected driver distance is something like 250 and that's kind of what I go by, based on experience on the course and the range, etc. I've played enough golf to know what my target distances are with my clubs.

Average distance is a poor way to GamePlan anything, anyway. I'd be screwed if I was planning on a 200 yard drive and ended up hitting it 50 yards long. Hell, I think my average 7 iron is like 80 yards or something, since I punch out with it so much.

At this point I don't know what else I can tell you guys. I've played rounds without a driver. I've played only hitting irons. I used to play predominantly from shorter tees. I've outdriven people with my 5 iron before, straight down the middle of the fairway and still scored worse on the hole. None of it changes anything. My handicap is still garbage. Moving back didn't change that, so I stayed. It's part of how I want to enjoy the game.

I'm not trying to convince you to change or how to play the game, just offering an alternative opinion.

When I hit my driver properly I average about 240 yards.  The problem is, like you, I'm not consistent with it, so the duck hooks, and pop ups cost me strokes and make the game harder.   If I use my driver and play from longer tees, I have rounds like you do, where I'm getting maximum benefit from the driver maybe 2-3 holes and the rest of the time I'm hitting my 2nd shot from rough, woods or longer distances than if I had used a shorter wood or long iron.

I'm able to hit a 4h into the fairway almost every time and I hit that about 190 - 200 yards consistently.  If I play from middle tees I'll score better because I remove the club from my bag that gives me the most trouble, but it's the club I spend the most time with now on the range.   I could play the longer tee boxes with my 4h but that would really push my ability to reach long par 4's and 5's within GIR.

[Mac62]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meenman

How fun is it shooting 3 digit scores? At a 22 playing back tees, you are not breaking 100 often.

I had friends like you guys (mind you they are much older) - it took me years to finally convince them to move up.

All of them are long hitters and they are now enjoying the game a lot more moving up. None of us has had our index change much, but our scores are lower - that is the beauty of the handicap system - it takes all of that into consideration.

You are overestimating the length the back tees are at my local courses I think. Even the back tees here tend to hover around 6600 max yards and don't really bring any extra trouble into the picture.

On my home course, the blues are just over 6000, the whites are just under 5600.  I play them interchangeably according to what the rest of my group on any given day wants to play, and my score doesn't differ much between the two - I usually shoot anywhere from 85-94 from those tees, depending on how well or badly I'm playing.  Our black tees (tips) are 6700 yds and I've never once played from back there - there's not much difference on some of the holes, but they bring some significant trouble into play on others.  Long forced carries over water and/or desert waste areas, more difficult angles for tee shots, etc.  The course rating only differs by 2.3 strokes from the blues to the tips, but I know beyond a doubt that they would make a lot more difference than that in my score/differential.

We have four par 4s that play 450 or longer from the tips (one being exactly 500 yds), and my drives average about 225 - that would leave me 225 - 275 yards for GIRs on those holes, which ain't happening.  Three of the par 5s are 550+, with the longest being 582 - I'd have to hit some blasts on second shots to have a short iron or wedge into the green for GIR on those.  A 220-yard par 3, which is going to mean I hit driver or 3W to have a chance at the green...but it's narrow and almost everything around the green is either bunkers or waste area with a good chance of an unplayable lie or lost ball.  In other words, I have no business back there on the black tees, and I know it.  One of these days I'm going to go back and try it just so I can say I've done it (our course is almost empty during the summer so I won't be holding anybody up), but I'll be bringing a lot of junk balls that day, expecting to lose a lot of them and not score well at all.

[meenman]

You're not actually improving, then, you're just shooting lower scores? I'm interested in improvement, not just shooting lower scores. If I wanted to just shoot lower scores, there's an executive course near me I know I can go out and shoot in the 70's tomorrow.

I would say that I am improving, GIR is now in play on every hole with 2 or 3(par 5) good shots, not hero shots. Putts per GIR are always higher than putts per hole.

The point of the game is to shoot lower scores, improvement is all in the eyes of the beholder - you like to count your long shots as more likely your average than your missed ones - they all factor in equally - a broken clock is right twice a day.

I honestly don't have fun hitting all short irons into greens. If score was all that mattered I'd play the reds exclusively. I don't want to hit driver wedge on every par 4. A well struck long iron feels so sweet.

Dont think for a minute that I am hitting driver wedge on every hole - its the reason I hate scrambles, when i only hit those 2 clubs it messes me up for weeks. I still have a couple of 360+ par 4s where even the best drive will leave me a longer iron - especially with trees pretty much straight ahead, driver is not the best option for teeing off. I use 13 of 14 clubs in my bag pretty much every round. I just never know which club it is that wont be used - yesterday it was my 58 degree that didnt get used.

[billchao]

I'm able to hit a 4h into the fairway almost every time and I hit that about 190 - 200 yards consistently.

Unfortunately, I can hit duck hooks more easily with the hybrids than the driver, so it's not a better option for me either. Trust me, I've tried everything. My conclusion is, if I have to spray and pray, I might as well do it with the longest club I can reasonably get away with on that particular hole.

GIR is now in play on every hole with 2 or 3(par 5) good shots, not hero shots.

Yea that's how it is for me too. We're not talking about hero shots. I consider a good drive for me at 250 (my expected target distance). There's only one hole on one course where GIR is a struggle after a good shot, but that's because it's a long hole. 440 from the tips, 418 from the shorter tees. It's just a long hole by design. There's no reason to play the rest of the course shorter so this particular hole is more reachable.

The point of the game is to shoot lower scores, improvement is all in the eyes of the beholder

Sure it's about shooting lower scores, but there's a difference between short term gains and long term. I'm in it for the long term, which means overhauling my swing, short game, and putting mechanics, even though I shoot higher scores now.

Improvement is not just in the eyes of the beholder, it's evident in your HI. If you're shooting lower scores and your HI isn't going down, you're not actually improving, you're just playing easier courses.

you like to count your long shots as more likely your average than your missed ones - they all factor in equally - a broken clock is right twice a day.

No, I don't. You like to make a lot of assumptions about other people, apparently. I don't consider the odd occasion that I hit my 7 iron 180+ yards as part of my Shot Zone, nor do I consider the 7 iron I hit fat to 100 yards. They're both anomalies.

I still have a couple of 360+ par 4s where even the best drive will leave me a longer iron - especially with trees pretty much straight ahead, driver is not the best option for teeing off. I use 13 of 14 clubs in my bag pretty much every round. I just never know which club it is that wont be used - yesterday it was my 58 degree that didnt get used.

It seems like you and I have completely different skill sets, despite having similar handicaps. What works for you may not work for me. I'm not really sure what else to tell you.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

6600 seems to be a reasonable distance, but if you're struggling to make pars try playing a much shorter course and teeing off with a 5i or 4i.

I typically have mostly bogey/par as scores. As stated above, it's typically an OB off the tee that gets me into trouble causing some ESCs a few times a round. Now, when I can avoid those as I did last night, I score a lot better. Without any lost balls I shot an 87 last night, with 1 triple and 2 doubles.

There's no doubt you and @billchao have the distance to play the long tees, but what I think many of the other posters are suggesting is in general play for par/bogey rather than bogey/par?

One thing you could do with your distance is to treat short par 4s as if they were long par 3. The mindset is to play for 3 and shoot 4. This kind of gets you used to shooting lower scores rather than subconsciously accepting bogey.

Just a thought.

[Jakester23]

I would say that I am improving, GIR is now in play on every hole with 2 or 3(par 5) good shots, not hero shots. Putts per GIR are always higher than putts per hole. The point of the game is to shoot lower scores, improvement is all in the eyes of the beholder - you like to count your long shots as more likely your average than your missed ones - they all factor in equally - a broken clock is right twice a day. Dont think for a minute that I am hitting driver wedge on every hole - its the reason I hate scrambles, when i only hit those 2 clubs it messes me up for weeks. I still have a couple of 360+ par 4s where even the best drive will leave me a longer iron - especially with trees pretty much straight ahead, driver is not the best option for teeing off. I use 13 of 14 clubs in my bag pretty much every round. I just never know which club it is that wont be used - yesterday it was my 58 degree that didnt get used.

Well we play completely different games then. I rarely hit either hybrid or my 4w unless the course is long enough.

[Bucki1968]

I have been playing some golf this week on golf courses that I have never played or have played rarely, but I have noticed that the difference between the very back tees and next set up has been pretty big. Literally about close to a 1000 yards. I enjoy shooting a good score (which I did from the up tees), but the back tees seem like they were thrown in just to make the golf course over 7000 yards. Most of the holes are not set up for the longer iron approaches from the back tees. I could see that  playing from those back tees would possibly hold up play.

[ghalfaire]

This thread is an interesting read.  I personally have always avoided the tips except on rare occasions.  I try to play tees at yardages ranging from 6,000 to 6,500 yards.  Most courses around here can be played at 7,000 or more yards but the slopes get up  close to 130 or more range with ratings over 71.  That's just too much for me.  I like to walk off the course knowing I had a decent score or at least a chance for a good score and not feeling like I got beat to death by the course.

I live on a course that is pretty playable from member  or senior tees, but will kill you from the tips.  I often sit in my back yard and watch players tee off from tips behind my house.  It is a long par 4 (about 470 from the tips) and narrow with lots of trouble awaiting a stray shot.  It amazes me how many "tin cup" shots I see from the tips.  Guys must have more money than me to spend on golf balls.  Hard to score well when you're hitting 5 off the tee.

Wow this thread has some legs so I thought I'd update what I posted a couple of years ago.   I have moved UP a tee on many of the course I plan and enjoy the game more.  A lot more fun to shoot in the high eighties that low nineties.  But I did find a day or so ago you can move too far up.  I went to a local course yesterday as a single and got paired with a threesome and they were playing the forward tees (used to be called the ladies tees).   Since I was the guest so to speak I played with them.  These tees were just less than 5600 yards with a slope of 110.   Well I never pulled a driver, hit a 3 wood once from the tee but on other Par 4, 5 tee boxes I just used the 3-5 hybrid for driving.   While I shot a good score (for me) I found the experience a little frustrating too.  So I guess there is  lower limit on the length of course I would like to play.  But even having said that I still believe most of us would enjoy the game more if we moved up a tee box or two but maybe getting a course length too much less than 6000 yards leaves on without a feeling of accomplishment.