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i have no interest in "teeing it forward"


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I enjoy playing courses anywhere from 3000 yards (18 holes par 3) to 6800 yards. Actually, I enjoy longer and shorter courses too!

If I am scoring then anything in the 6000-6500 range is pretty optimal.

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Anything less than 200 yards is clearly a gross mis-hit of some kind: topped, pop-up, duck hook, random carom off a tree, etc. They're exactly the kind of shots I'm saying cost me strokes, but moving up a set of tees would do anything for.

Moving up would make your approach shot following the mishit closer to the hole. That is always better.

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Moving up would make your approach shot following the mishit closer to the hole.

Obviously, mathematically, this is indisputable.  However, ...

That is always better.

... from a scoring standpoint, I would disagree with this.  In the case of a topped or skied drive that goes 80 yards, for example, whether you're on a 460 yard par 4 or you move up a set of tees and are on a 420 yard par 4, in either case you're too far to have any realistic chance of hitting the green with your next shot.  If I drew a good lie and hit a good 3 wood for my second shot, then if I was playing the back tees I'm going to be in the fairway 60 yards or so short of the hole and from the up tees with the same shot I'd be 20 yards short of the hole.

In both cases, the vast majority of the time, I'm making a bogey.  Certainly my average from the shorter tees will be a little bit better over time, but how much better?  Once I factor in how often this is done, and I factor in the difference in the course ratings and slopes, I can easily see it as possible that I'd score better - at least as it relates to my handicap - from the back tees.


I still don't even understand why this is always a hot topic?  It should come down to two things and two things only - Do you have fun at "x" tees?  And can you keep up while playing from "x" tees?  (And the second one is barely a question, because slow players are often slow players regardless of the tees)

If the answer to both questions is 'yes' ... then we're done here.  Nothing else should matter.

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Obviously, mathematically, this is indisputable.  However, ...

... from a scoring standpoint, I would disagree with this.  In the case of a topped or skied drive that goes 80 yards, for example, whether you're on a 460 yard par 4 or you move up a set of tees and are on a 420 yard par 4, in either case you're too far to have any realistic chance of hitting the green with your next shot.  If I drew a good lie and hit a good 3 wood for my second shot, then if I was playing the back tees I'm going to be in the fairway 60 yards or so short of the hole and from the up tees with the same shot I'd be 20 yards short of the hole.

In both cases, the vast majority of the time, I'm making a bogey.  Certainly my average from the shorter tees will be a little bit better over time, but how much better?  Once I factor in how often this is done, and I factor in the difference in the course ratings and slopes, I can easily see it as possible that I'd score better - at least as it relates to my handicap - from the back tees.

I still don't even understand why this is always a hot topic?  It should come down to two things and two things only - Do you have fun at "x" tees?  And can you keep up while playing from "x" tees?  (And the second one is barely a question, because slow players are often slow players regardless of the tees)

If the answer to both questions is 'yes' ... then we're done here.  Nothing else should matter.

Yup, pretty much.

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Obviously, mathematically, this is indisputable.  However, ...

... from a scoring standpoint, I would disagree with this.  In the case of a topped or skied drive that goes 80 yards, for example, whether you're on a 460 yard par 4 or you move up a set of tees and are on a 420 yard par 4, in either case you're too far to have any realistic chance of hitting the green with your next shot.  If I drew a good lie and hit a good 3 wood for my second shot, then if I was playing the back tees I'm going to be in the fairway 60 yards or so short of the hole and from the up tees with the same shot I'd be 20 yards short of the hole.

In both cases, the vast majority of the time, I'm making a bogey.  Certainly my average from the shorter tees will be a little bit better over time, but how much better?  Once I factor in how often this is done, and I factor in the difference in the course ratings and slopes, I can easily see it as possible that I'd score better - at least as it relates to my handicap - from the back tees.

I still don't even understand why this is always a hot topic?  It should come down to two things and two things only - Do you have fun at "x" tees?  And can you keep up while playing from "x" tees?  (And the second one is barely a question, because slow players are often slow players regardless of the tees)

If the answer to both questions is 'yes' ... then we're done here.  Nothing else should matter.


Sure but 40 yards is 4 clubs for most and presents a different degree of difficultly for someone struggling to shoot 20 over than it does for someone that stands a chance to break 80 every time out. The golfer struggling to break 100 is hitting more poor drives than good every time they play.

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I still don't even understand why this is always a hot topic?  It should come down to two things and two things only - Do you have fun at "x" tees?  And can you keep up while playing from "x" tees?  (And the second one is barely a question, because slow players are often slow players regardless of the tees)

If the answer to both questions is 'yes' ... then we're done here.  Nothing else should matter.

This sums it up perfectly.  If someone enjoys playing from the tips and posting higher scores that's their business as long as they keep up with the group in front of them.

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I still don't even understand why this is always a hot topic?  It should come down to two things and two things only - Do you have fun at "x" tees?  And can you keep up while playing from "x" tees?  (And the second one is barely a question, because slow players are often slow players regardless of the tees)

If the answer to both questions is 'yes' ... then we're done here.  Nothing else should matter.

This sums it up perfectly.  If someone enjoys playing from the tips and posting higher scores that's their business as long as they keep up with the group in front of them.

I'm compelled to agree, but only to a degree. Slow players are slower from farther back tees. Slow players generally don't think they are slow, so they may think they are keeping up but they generally are not. And taking more and longer shots is slower than taking shorter and fewer shots, so even if you play briskly you can be slow if the tees are too far/difficult.

If you're a 6 hdcp obviously you are a skilled golfer, shouldn't really matter what tees you play from. But if you are a 10 handicap playing from 7200 yard tees or a 20 handicap playing from 7000 yard tees (just to make up some numbers), your lack of skill is slowing down play for everyone and you shouldn't be playing from those tees. If someone of average handicap or higher is playing from the "tips" (and tips meaning especially long where few players go) they are playing slowly, too slowly. And the tees played from are part of the problem.

And just because the group ahead is slow, that doesn't make it ok. If I'm barely keeping up with the group ahead of me, and they are on a 6 hour pace, my pace of play is not okay.

I've used the example before of playing recently behind a group of longer (but not straight) hitting folks at Torrey South who played the blue tees, 7000 ish yards. Maybe they had fun. Maybe they thought they weren't slow, but they were. Their choice (with the starter's passive approval) to play too long tees made the day slow and difficult for everyone behind them that day. If any of them broke 100 I would be surprised. If they had played tees farther up they would have probably scored better and, more importantly, also kept their pace to a reasonable one.

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I still don't even understand why this is always a hot topic?  It should come down to two things and two things only - Do you have fun at "x" tees?  And can you keep up while playing from "x" tees?  (And the second one is barely a question, because slow players are often slow players regardless of the tees)

If the answer to both questions is 'yes' ... then we're done here.  Nothing else should matter.

Maybe they've never been encouraged to try a shorter tee.  If you haven't tried it, you'll never know if you'll like it.  Maybe what you thought was fun isn't as much fun as you thought it was.  Just a suggestion... :smartass:

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Moving up would make your approach shot following the mishit closer to the hole. That is always better.

I was going to respond to this, but @Golfingdad pretty much nailed it on the head.

Sure but 40 yards is 4 clubs for most and presents a different degree of difficultly for someone struggling to shoot 20 over than it does for someone that stands a chance to break 80 every time out. The golfer struggling to break 100 is hitting more poor drives than good every time they play.

That's a pretty extreme example, 40 yards difference between tees. Many holes on the courses I play, the tees are barely 20 yards apart. Sometimes they're on the same length of tee box no more than 10 yards away from each other. When you're hitting poor drives, the extra distance is negligible. It probably doesn't even amount to even half a stroke over time.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

Moving up would make your approach shot following the mishit closer to the hole. That is always better.

I was going to respond to this, but @Golfingdad pretty much nailed it on the head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

Sure but 40 yards is 4 clubs for most and presents a different degree of difficultly for someone struggling to shoot 20 over than it does for someone that stands a chance to break 80 every time out. The golfer struggling to break 100 is hitting more poor drives than good every time they play.

That's a pretty extreme example, 40 yards difference between tees. Many holes on the courses I play, the tees are barely 20 yards apart. Sometimes they're on the same length of tee box no more than 10 yards away from each other. When you're hitting poor drives, the extra distance is negligible. It probably doesn't even amount to even half a stroke over time.

I play a course occasionally where the distance from the tips to the forward tees is 230 yards.  I shows that both on the card and by my own measurement on Google Earth.

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I don't think anyone is talking about playing from 7500 to 8100 yards. It sound like the tips on most courses in question are 6600 yards or so. That's pretty reasonable for longer hitters who play bogey golf.
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I play a course occasionally where the distance from the tips to the forward tees is 230 yards.  I shows that both on the card and by my own measurement on Google Earth.

That's crazy.

Also not really the point of the discussion, but I'm pretty sure you know that :-)

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I play a course occasionally where the distance from the tips to the forward tees is 230 yards.  I shows that both on the card and by my own measurement on Google Earth.

Is the forward tee halfway down the middle of the fairway? What is the name of the course so I can scope it out on google maps?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I play a course occasionally where the distance from the tips to the forward tees is 230 yards.  I shows that both on the card and by my own measurement on Google Earth.

Is the forward tee halfway down the middle of the fairway? What is the name of the course so I can scope it out on google maps?

The course is Riverdale Dunes in Brighton, Colorado and it's the par 5 third hole, the northern most hole on the course, running west to east.  There is a peculiar discrepancy though.  Although the card originally said there is a 230 yard difference, on Google earth I get 242, but for the same measurement on Google Maps I get 212. :blink:

Check that, I just looked at the card I kept when I played there last month, and it shows 249 yards now.  That is more than it was the first time I played there back in the late 1980's, but more in keeping with google Earth.  They generally only put the gold tees out for certain tournaments, so usually that way back tee box isn't in play.  I get almost 210 yards from that tee to start of the fairway on Google Earth.

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[QUOTE name="SavvySwede" url="/t/63387/i-have-no-interest-in-teeing-it-forward/252#post_1162869"]   [QUOTE name="Fourputt" url="/t/63387/i-have-no-interest-in-teeing-it-forward/252#post_1162864"]   [CONTENTEMBED=/t/63387/i-have-no-interest-in-teeing-it-forward/252#post_1162851 layout=inline]I play a course occasionally where the distance from the tips to the forward tees is 230 yards.  I shows that both on the card and by my own measurement on Google Earth.[/CONTENTEMBED] [/QUOTE] Is the forward tee halfway down the middle of the fairway? What is the name of the course so I can scope it out on google maps? [/QUOTE] The course is Riverdale Dunes in Brighton, Colorado and it's the par 5 third hole, the northern most hole on the course, running west to east.  There is a peculiar discrepancy though.  Although the card originally said there is a 230 yard difference, on Google earth I get 242, but for the same measurement on Google Maps I get 212.  :blink: Check that, I just looked at the card I kept when I played there last month, and it shows 249 yards now.  That is more than it was the first time I played there back in the late 1980's, but more in keeping with google Earth.  They generally only put the gold tees out for certain tournaments, so usually that way back tee box isn't in play.  I get almost 210 yards from that tee to start of the fairway on Google Earth.

I usually calibrate Google earth with a football field or something like that, but have not known it to be that far off. Maybe the landmarks you are using are off? Google earth is pretty accurate, I would trust the 210 yard reading. As for the 242 yard reading, they might have moved it back 30 yards if the pin is moved up 30 yards?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by SavvySwede

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Is the forward tee halfway down the middle of the fairway? What is the name of the course so I can scope it out on google maps?

The course is Riverdale Dunes in Brighton, Colorado and it's the par 5 third hole, the northern most hole on the course, running west to east.  There is a peculiar discrepancy though.  Although the card originally said there is a 230 yard difference, on Google earth I get 242, but for the same measurement on Google Maps I get 212.

Check that, I just looked at the card I kept when I played there last month, and it shows 249 yards now.  That is more than it was the first time I played there back in the late 1980's, but more in keeping with google Earth.  They generally only put the gold tees out for certain tournaments, so usually that way back tee box isn't in play.  I get almost 210 yards from that tee to start of the fairway on Google Earth.

I usually calibrate Google earth with a football field or something like that, but have not known it to be that far off. Maybe the landmarks you are using are off?

Google earth is pretty accurate, I would trust the 210 yard reading.

As for the 242 yard reading, they might have moved it back 30 yards if the pin is moved up 30 yards?

Google Earth is accurate - it's Google Maps that appears to be thirty some yards off.

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I am sure that playing off the forward tees would make golf more enjoyable/easier for many, but was that really the intention of those who developed the game?

Was it the intention that all players play the same course, and that their score would then be the measure of their skill/ability? If that makes it more difficult for those who don’t hit the ball far, then so be it. After all, many sports are skewed in favor of certain physical characteristics.

Or, on the other hand, perhaps golf should actually be played in such a way that each player is able (at their own skill level) to reach the par 4 holes in 2 strokes? Is this perhaps the level playing field which provides the true comparison between each player’s ability to maximize his/her potential?

What do you think?

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I am sure that playing off the forward tees would make golf more enjoyable/easier for many, but was that really the intention of those who developed the game?

 

Was it the intention that all players play the same course, and that their score would then be the measure of their skill/ability? If that makes it more difficult for those who don’t hit the ball far, then so be it. After all, many sports are skewed in favor of certain physical characteristics.

 

Or, on the other hand, perhaps golf should actually be played in such a way that each player is able (at their own skill level) to reach the par 4 holes in 2 strokes? Is this perhaps the level playing field which provides the true comparison between each player’s ability to maximize his/her potential?

 

What do you think?

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I think you should play whatever tees makes you happy. . .

I also think that if you wish to improve your mindset, play shorter tees to improve your game. Once you get used to getting par, then move back again.

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