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tuffluck

i have no interest in "teeing it forward"

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There's no doubt you and @billchao have the distance to play the long tees, but what I think many of the other posters are suggesting is in general play for par/bogey rather than bogey/par?

One thing you could do with your distance is to treat short par 4s as if they were long par 3. The mindset is to play for 3 and shoot 4. This kind of gets you used to shooting lower scores rather than subconsciously accepting bogey.

Just a thought.

My goal for this year is to get down to 18 HC, so shooting bogey/par fits that goal. I average bogeys more than pars but that is ok for me right now because that is an improvement over having a lot of doubles and triples. Most of my bogeys are also due to two putting because of a not so great chip or bad putts. These are things that I can work on that has nothing to do with course length. I'm not saying that playing a shorter course can't lower scores, but a lower score that doesn't lower my index means nothing to me.

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Because the best lies are the lies we tell ourselves....


So very true, indeed !

Dan Camilli devotes an entire chapter to this issue entitled : "Tee It Forward vs. Testosterone"  in his book called "Tee Ceremony: A Cosmic Duffer's Companion to the Ancient Game of Golf".

He points out that we "wouldn't expect Little League baseball players to hit home runs in a ball park with major league dimensions so neither should amateur golfers be expected to make par on Tour Professional length courses."

Camilli then supports his position with data from the PGA which says "The 6.700 yard course that many amateur golfers  play today is proportionately equivalent to a PGA Tour player competing on a course measuring 8,100 yards- That's 700 yards or more LONGER than a typical PGA Tour layout."

He also cites Trackman research from over 10.000 golfers of all abilities world-wide, which says that the average male amateur drives the ball an average of 214 yards.

That being said,  Camilli then deduces that very few amateurs should be playing a layout longer than approximately 6,000 yards!  It's really a simple matter of math over ego.  LOL

He makes a most convincing, data-driven case for Tee It Forward and points out the idiocy of those who reject the facts out of hand - or more correctly out of EGO !

Camilli sums it all up with a quote from Einstein "  Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity , and I'm not sure about the universe."      LOL

The book is a very funny and informative take on the game - check it out at Amazon.

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To be fair, someone that bad would stink from whatever set of tees he/she is playing from. Moving up won't help much at all. I play from the tips because I have the distance. Moving up doesn't stop me from hitting errant drives. Plus, when I am driving the ball well, being able to reach par 5s in two and hitting pitch shots as approaches on par 4s just doesn't quite feel like golf.

Lolol. Sounds exactly like the kind of golf I'd like to play.

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My neighbor is a scratch golfer, I have been playing with him for several years and I'll never forget what he told me one time when I used to tee it up at white. He said:

Golf courses are designed from the tips, then they just move it up for the other boxes. Don't you want to play the course the way it was designed to be played?

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I don't think tee selection has to do with hdcp as much as it does with length.  If you can hit the ball long enough to have a short iron into greens from any given tee box, then it's probably not too long for you.  That being said, length and skill pretty much go hand in hand.  Not too many 30 cappers hitting 280 tee shots.

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My neighbor is a scratch golfer, I have been playing with him for several years and I'll never forget what he told me one time when I used to tee it up at white. He said:

Golf courses are designed from the tips, then they just move it up for the other boxes. Don't you want to play the course the way it was designed to be played?

This is one of the weakest arguments I've seen yet.  Very one dimensional, and not a little condescending.

The answer is, for a well designed course, it plays as designed for all golfers who pick the right tee for their game .  If the course doesn't play like that then it wasn't very well planned out.

I've played the Nicklaus designed Old Works course in Anaconda, Montana.  The Tips are 7700 yards.  You show me a typical amateur playing from those tees and I'll show you a 5½ hour round.  The shortest par 3 is 195 yards and there is only one par 4 under 435 yards.  Anyone but a young, strong, long hitting scratch golfer would be stupid to play those tees.  If I played from there, I might reach those design features on my second shot, assuming that I could even get a ball in play from the tips - no guarantee there either.

If you truly believe this then you're pretty confused about what the game of golf really is. :loco:

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In my opinion, you should be playing the tees in which you can reach all par 4's with an iron on a normal day.

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The answer is, for a well designed course, it plays as designed for all golfers who pick the right tee for their game.  If the course doesn't play like that then it wasn't very well planned out.

QFT.

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In my opinion, you should be playing the tees in which you can reach all par 4's with an iron on a normal day.


I think this is spot on, and pretty much how I choose a tee box.  I'm long, but I still don't want to hit 4 irons into half of the par 4's (just like I don't necessarily want to have SW into all of the par 4's).

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My neighbor is a scratch golfer, I have been playing with him for several years and I'll never forget what he told me one time when I used to tee it up at white. He said:

Golf courses are designed from the tips, then they just move it up for the other boxes. Don't you want to play the course the way it was designed to be played?

Besides this being faulty logic, it's wholly inaccurate.  Golf courses are designed for the player to have a certain yardage into the green.  Under your neighbor's logic, LPGA pros should be playing 7500 yard courses and hitting 3W into greens on par 4's.  The reason for the additional tee boxes is so someone playing from the tips and someone playing from the whites have a similar second shot.

The idea that you're not "playing the course as it was designed to be played" makes about as much sense as the muni players who play the tips so they can get their money's worth.

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My neighbor is a scratch golfer, I have been playing with him for several years and I'll never forget what he told me one time when I used to tee it up at white. He said: [SIZE=14px] Golf courses are designed from the tips, then they just move it up for the other boxes. Don't you want to play the course the way it was designed to be played? [/SIZE]

Oh, really? Did you then ask about courses like Augusta, Merion, Olympic, Pebble Beach, St. Andrews, or any OTHER course played by the tour. The (what we now call) "tips" were added AFTER and continue to be moved back. When Par 5's were built at 500 yards or so, the idea was, Driver, 3 wood or long Iron, wedge. Greens were small and well guarded. Something a wedge shot was meant to overcome. Now, That same course has probably pushed it's tees back to 600 plus trying to keep it from being bullied by Driver, 9 iron. Even when they design courses now, they will 'generally' design around the "middle tees" length, but make 5 or six tees available to create that 8000 yard prestige course. But what also has crept into designs, are GIANT greens- even on shorter Par 3's and Par 5's. Making them accessible to longer irons and fairway woods. Some of the smaller greens on holes I played as kids were no bigger than my living room/dining room area. On a par 5 with a wood trying to make it in 2? If you did, great... that is if it actually stopped on the green, after it made it over the traps protecting it, or didn't go in the water or traps behind it, or maybe got lost in the clumpy long rough that was everywhere other than the traps or water. What's sad is even Augusta has enlarged some of its greens to play into the new mentality. Ostensibly, they say it's to create "new hole positions"- rubbish, it's to make them easier to hit with the longer clubs after they move the tee back 150 yards or whatever.

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My neighbor is a scratch golfer, I have been playing with him for several years and I'll never forget what he told me one time when I used to tee it up at white. He said:

Golf courses are designed from the tips, then they just move it up for the other boxes. Don't you want to play the course the way it was designed to be played?

I don't find that to be true at all. Maybe it is true of courses that have been built in the last 10 years or so, but most courses end up building back tees farther and farther back just to get to over 7,000 yards as opposed to the opposite of building tees forward. They do this with little regard to the current setup of the their golf courses with regard to bunkers and hazards. The vast majority of golf courses were not built anywhere near 7,000 yards at their inception.

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This is one of the weakest arguments I've seen yet.  Very one dimensional, and not a little condescending.

The answer is, for a well designed course, it plays as designed for all golfers who pick the right tee for their game.  If the course doesn't play like that then it wasn't very well planned out.

I've played the Nicklaus designed Old Works course in Anaconda, Montana.  The Tips are 7700 yards.  You show me a typical amateur playing from those tees and I'll show you a 5½ hour round.  The shortest par 3 is 195 yards and there is only one par 4 under 435 yards.  Anyone but a young, strong, long hitting scratch golfer would be stupid to play those tees.  If I played from there, I might reach those design features on my second shot, assuming that I could even get a ball in play from the tips - no guarantee there either.

If you truly believe this then you're pretty confused about what the game of golf really is.

I'm just telling you what I was told... 195 yrds is it that odd to hit a 6i into a par3, I made birdie over the weekend on a 220yrd par 3 into the wind GIR with a 4i. I like to be challenged when i play it makes a good hole or score that much better if you want to play it shorter there are plenty of senior or executive courses you can play. Its called a Championship course for a reason, if you want to play from the women's tees go ahead but don't force others to just because you think they might score better, everyone has errant or bad shots from time to time, look at tiger, no matter what tee they use.

Oh, really? Did you then ask about courses like Augusta, Merion, Olympic, Pebble Beach, St. Andrews, or any OTHER course played by the tour. The (what we now call) "tips" were added AFTER and continue to be moved back. When Par 5's were built at 500 yards or so, the idea was, Driver, 3 wood or long Iron, wedge. Greens were small and well guarded. Something a wedge shot was meant to overcome. Now, That same course has probably pushed it's tees back to 600 plus trying to keep it from being bullied by Driver, 9 iron. Even when they design courses now, they will 'generally' design around the "middle tees" length, but make 5 or six tees available to create that 8000 yard prestige course. But what also has crept into designs, are GIANT greens- even on shorter Par 3's and Par 5's. Making them accessible to longer irons and fairway woods. Some of the smaller greens on holes I played as kids were no bigger than my living room/dining room area. On a par 5 with a wood trying to make it in 2? If you did, great... that is if it actually stopped on the green, after it made it over the traps protecting it, or didn't go in the water or traps behind it, or maybe got lost in the clumpy long rough that was everywhere other than the traps or water.

What's sad is even Augusta has enlarged some of its greens to play into the new mentality. Ostensibly, they say it's to create "new hole positions"- rubbish, it's to make them easier to hit with the longer clubs after they move the tee back 150 yards or whatever.

Well I'd assume that that's probably true that is just what I was told and in the area I'm in South Florida most courses are maybe decades old not centuries, most are still the way they were designed.

Plus if you think about it if the course was designed in the 80's the tees your playing from now would have been much more difficult in terms of length. The long hitters of the tour in the 80's was only hitting 270-280 now its 320-340. Playing form the white tees back then would probably be the equivalent to playing from blue/black tees today with all the improvements in equipment, and balls.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This is one of the weakest arguments I've seen yet.  Very one dimensional, and not a little condescending.

The answer is, for a well designed course, it plays as designed for all golfers who pick the right tee for their game.  If the course doesn't play like that then it wasn't very well planned out.

I've played the Nicklaus designed Old Works course in Anaconda, Montana.  The Tips are 7700 yards.  You show me a typical amateur playing from those tees and I'll show you a 5½ hour round.  The shortest par 3 is 195 yards and there is only one par 4 under 435 yards.  Anyone but a young, strong, long hitting scratch golfer would be stupid to play those tees.  If I played from there, I might reach those design features on my second shot, assuming that I could even get a ball in play from the tips - no guarantee there either.

If you truly believe this then you're pretty confused about what the game of golf really is.

I'm just telling you what I was told... 195 yrds is it that odd to hit a 6i into a par3, I made birdie over the weekend on a 220yrd par 3 into the wind GIR with a 4i. I like to be challenged when i play it makes a good hole or score that much better if you want to play it shorter there are plenty of senior or executive courses you can play. Its called a Championship course for a reason, if you want to play from the women's tees go ahead but don't force others to just because you think they might score better, everyone has errant or bad shots from time to time, look at tiger, no matter what tee they use.

Now it's you who is sounding condescending.  You would relegate me to an executive course because I'm not as long as you appear to be?  I'm not to mix on the same courses with you?  My old home course (opened in 1972) has 4 tee sets (the longest is 7000 yards), and many courses I've played have 5.  Obviously someone thought that those courses might want to cater a larger and more diverse customer base than you seem willing to recognize.

At best, I'm hitting my longest hybrid into a 195 yard hole.  Despite what you read online, not a lot of players that I meet are anywhere near as long as some would have us believe.  My 6I is no more than 160 yards - only 5 yards shorter than it was 25 years ago.  Odds are that I'd hit a choked 3W to a 195 yard hole unless it was down hill.  220 is a decent drive for me, 240 is about my normal max, and I'm not that unusual.  I can play a course up to about 6400 yards adequately, although even that is starting to feel stretched at my age.  When a course offers it, I have no problem playing the senior tees, and usually when courses offer that option, the course design plays just about the same for us short knockers as it does for you young gorillas.

Once again, the reason they put those other tee boxes in is to give shorter hitters the same relative experience that you get.  From my experience over some 40 years, the spread between long, average, and short hitters is much greater now than it's ever been.  That came be blamed on equipment too.  A player who can't generate the needed clubhead speed to "activate" the technology is not going to be any longer than he would have been 20 years ago.  This is, and has always been my case.  I've never been a fast swinger, and that hasn't really changed.  I'm not bad for my age group, but I can't keep up with the kids these days.  I can't get those hundred plus swing speeds with my 68 year old body, but that doesn't mean that I'm ready to be put out to pasture.

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My neighbor is a scratch golfer, I have been playing with him for several years and I'll never forget what he told me one time when I used to tee it up at white. He said: [SIZE=14px] Golf courses are designed from the tips, then they just move it up for the other boxes. Don't you want to play the course the way it was designed to be played? [/SIZE]

This couldn't be more false. A lot of times the course is designed around the whites or the blues and then they just stick a random tee box 50 yards behind it in a random spot.

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I've been keeping track of my differentials for every round I've played since 2013. The front 9 on my course is fairly easy something like 36.3 cr from the tips (short front 9 like 3400) and its 34 from the blues. From playing back I hit driver on every hole to about the designed landing area. Usually shooting 36-38. The fact that I'm hitting driver doesn't make it harder because I know where to miss and usually never take penalty drops. When I practice from the blues, the par 3s are a club or 3 shorter and 2 par 4s are straight away and can knock it a few clubs shorter but the rest of the holes I have to hit some layup to about where my driver would go from the tips. I may be more accurate but it's still the same strokes as with driver. The only difference is the 2 par 3s are easier (still rarely make birdie) 2 par 4s are easier (still rarely make birdie) and the rest of the holes in more accurate off the tee but the rest is equal. It definantly doesn't play 2+ strokes easier and I typically play 0-1 stroke better but with less stress. That's why teeing it forward doesn't work on some courses. Our back 9 is a different story it's 3700 tight and straight so you can either drive it closer or you can just play it straighter off the tee

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If you go by my average driving distance... I should be playing from 6,200-6,400 yards, my home course plays 6,385 from the men's tees, though we can play it at 6,400 yards from tournaments (we convert either the first or the tenth, to a par 4 and play both 9 and 18 as par 4s.) The tournament set up and everyday set up are 2 different courses really.

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Note: This thread is 1932 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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