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tuffluck

i have no interest in "teeing it forward"

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I've probably posted this before, oh well, but the idea that people playing from the wrong tees is OK if they simply keep up with the group ahead may be somewhat true on a busy course where congestion is already very high. The problem is when you put a single playing from the wrong tees with a twosome or threesome that are all playing from the correct tees, they are going to slow the group down as a whole.

You guy's like math and science here and that's all it is, basic math. It's not a theory, I've lived it in real time on occasion. A few years back when my son was younger and his grandpa was still playing we as a threesome played from three different sets of tees. Grandpa was on the "Senior Tees", my son was on the "Regular Men's Tees" and I was on the "Championship Tees". When a single would join us most sensible people would fall in where they normally tee from and the round would always flow nicely at a 4:00 to 4:15 pace.

On a rare occasion there would be a yahoo that would absolutely insist they would play the back tees with me. I honestly believe in these cases it was a little bit of testosterone and they weren't going to tee off with a 13 year old boy. In the times this played out the real problem was the individuals could not reach very many of the holes in regulation and it would disrupt the normal flow of a round. When a group, regardless of length or ability are all playing from the appropriate tee boxes there is a normal flow to the round simply because everyone can "potentially" reach each hole in regulation. When you add a individual to the group who is on the wrong tees and can't reach the holes in regulation you have slammed on the brakes for the group as a whole.

In the case of said individuals that moved to the back tees with me the entire group would have to stop and wait for them to hit their approach(3rd shot) into a par4 from 60-80 yards short of the green before the group could finally all advance together to the green complex to chip/putt and finish the hole. This played out over and over adding significant time to the round. None of these players were slow in any way they just simply had to hit a lot more full/approach shots because of their ego. Thankfully this only happened a few times but each time our normal round time went substantially up from 4:00-4:15 to 4:40-4:50.

If you want to play tees you shouldn't be on, get up at 5:00 am and go out alone so you don't waste other peoples time!!!

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I am sure that playing off the forward tees would make golf more enjoyable/easier for many, but was that really the intention of those who developed the game?

 

Was it the intention that all players play the same course, and that their score would then be the measure of their skill/ability? If that makes it more difficult for those who don’t hit the ball far, then so be it. After all, many sports are skewed in favor of certain physical characteristics.

 

Or, on the other hand, perhaps golf should actually be played in such a way that each player is able (at their own skill level) to reach the par 4 holes in 2 strokes? Is this perhaps the level playing field which provides the true comparison between each player’s ability to maximize his/her potential?

 

What do you think?

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i think it's the 2nd one, and i really don't care about the "intention of those who developed the game"...  personally, i think we get way too hung up on what some animal farmers came up with decades and decades ago (note: this is part of why we have a rule book that is too big to begin with, and has a set of "decisions" that is 10 times as long)...  to "believe" that those who "developed the game" had the foresight to lay out a set of rules/etc. that should never change is foolhardy...

we constantly hear that is the one sport that can be played from birth to death...   and it should be played on a course that is commensurate with the ability of the player...  otherwise, it's kinda like me deciding to play lebron james one-on-one...

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Over the years we have added tee boxes to accommodate all levels of player and I will tee it forward sometimes when the time comes that I can't reach most of the par 4's playing from the men's tees. It should certainly speed up my play.

When my course was built (1908) it probably tipped out at around 6100 yards and was considered one of the better championship courses in the country. There really was only one set of tees and everybody played from there. They soon added ladies tees as an afterthought and they were placed kind of to the side. By the time the PGA Tour started having an event there in 1963, it tipped out at around 6700 yards, with the regular men's tees at around 6350. 50 years ago that was still very much a championship course that challenged any level of player. The course is kind of landlocked at this point and tees have been built to tip out at around 6900 and it can't get any longer.

Right now the tees are:

Tips       6900

Men       6490

Senior   5965

Women 5650

Junior    5190

We are thinking of changing the designations in order to encourage people to play the other tees. Men don't want to play Senior tees, seniors don't want to play Women's tees and women don't want to play Junior tees. My wife on the other hand goes right to the shortest tees (Junior) whenever she plays. It helps her enjoy the game more.

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We are thinking of changing the designations in order to encourage people to play the other tees. Men don't want to play Senior tees, seniors don't want to play Women's tees and women don't want to play Junior tees. My wife on the other hand goes right to the shortest tees (Junior) whenever she plays. It helps her enjoy the game more.

My place does this.   For the men there are 7 tees that can be played from.   3 of those are combinations of 4 different tee boxes.

Gold -  back tees

Blue - men's tees

White - shorter men's tees

Silver -  technically senior tees

Gold/Blue -  hybrid for back + longer men's tees

Blue/White -  hybrid for people who don't hit the ball as far, so the longer holes they play whites

White/Silver -  popular for people who still have some distance but cannot reach some carries, so the silver helps them there.

Silver is technically senior, but for years I've been there as 9 - 13 handicap index and I've played blues, whites, all of them except the tees with the silver.  In fact my handicap sometimes puts me in the White tee for tourneys, but I generally play from the longer blue tees.

The color coding instead of "Senior tees" and the hybrids help accommodate everyone.

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Our bent grass course tee to green with lots of trouble play as follows: MEN Black - 7,141 - 75.1/141 Slope (some tees can be moved back) Blue - 6,456 - 72.0/132 White - 5,871 - 69.4/126 Yellow - 5,453 - 67.5/120 WOMEN Red - 4,922 - 64.9/115 This course has posted sign stating which tee recommended for appropriate handicap, if known. I try and check the yardage and slope on courses I play. I see some try and play from boxes possibly outside skill level. Add difficulty to the mix. Pace of play goes up. No problem with this on slow use days. Note that some slopes may be close between boxes so playing from a moved up tee may not drop too mant strokes. Again, course difficulty, skill, etc, comes into play. My nickels worth.

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i think it's the 2nd one, and i really don't care about the "intention of those who developed the game"...  personally, i think we get way too hung up on what some animal farmers came up with decades and decades ago (note: this is part of why we have a rule book that is too big to begin with, and has a set of "decisions" that is 10 times as long)...  to "believe" that those who "developed the game" had the foresight to lay out a set of rules/etc. that should never change is foolhardy...

we constantly hear that is the one sport that can be played from birth to death...   and it should be played on a course that is commensurate with the ability of the player...  otherwise, it's kinda like me deciding to play lebron james one-on-one...


Thank you, ccotenj.....what you post here is pretty much what Dan Camilli's book with it's  PGA/USGA and Trackman rock solid data indicate, - the numbers don't lie, gentlemen and anyone attempting to compose some alibi or excuse for denying them is not in reality ......"kinda like you deciding to play Lebron James one on one" -and expecting to do well, no less!  LOL

Most courses are now renaming their tee boxes based on a color code thus eliminating much of the stigma of some who fret about hitting from "Senior" tees and the like and over time those old labels will fade into the past - as already we see many more golfers checking the USGA/PGA "Tee It Forward" Distance Chart in order to play the most appropriate course length.  Please remember that the data leave little doubt that few amateurs should ever be playing a course much longer than approx. 6,000 yards.....please let that fact seep into your thinking process here and then apply it directly to your actual distances....not imagined ones, lads!

But methinks it's still more accurately depicted in Camilli's book as you attempting to hit home runs in a major league dimensioned ball park.....

alas, 'tis little more than some poor misguided blokes thinking with the wrong head........topping off their testosterone!   :)

Cheers.

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We are thinking of changing the designations in order to encourage people to play the other tees. Men don't want to play Senior tees, seniors don't want to play Women's tees and women don't want to play Junior tees.

I like the forward (no pun intended) thinking.

The color coding instead of "Senior tees" and the hybrids help accommodate everyone.

The problem with that is that for the most part, the color coding is so uniform and ingrained that people still don't like the stigma associated with certain colors.

What I'd propose to completely remove the stigma of the "senior" tees or the "ladies" tees or the "red" tees would be for the USGA to encourage courses to do what @phan52 's club is thinking of doing and removing the designations AND getting really random with tee colors.  So hopefully you'd see some courses where the 7000 yd. tips were red, and the 6600 yd. tees were white, the 6000 yard tees were blue and the 5200 yard tees were black.

If the stigma is completely gone then people might be more apt to play what they really want to play.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

We are thinking of changing the designations in order to encourage people to play the other tees. Men don't want to play Senior tees, seniors don't want to play Women's tees and women don't want to play Junior tees.

I like the forward (no pun intended) thinking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by imsys0042

The color coding instead of "Senior tees" and the hybrids help accommodate everyone.

The problem with that is that for the most part, the color coding is so uniform and ingrained that people still don't like the stigma associated with certain colors.

What I'd propose to completely remove the stigma of the "senior" tees or the "ladies" tees or the "red" tees would be for the USGA to encourage courses to do what @phan52 's club is thinking of doing and removing the designations AND getting really random with tee colors.  So hopefully you'd see some courses where the 7000 yd. tips were red, and the 6600 yd. tees were white, the 6000 yard tees were blue and the 5200 yard tees were black.

If the stigma is completely gone then people might be more apt to play what they really want to play.

One thing they have done at my home courses during tournaments is to move the "Blue" tees to somewhere in between the "White" and "Red" tee positions. As far as those who do not play daily are concerned they are playing from the "back/Blue"" tees. Which I think is a great idea for all courses to adopt on a regular basis. This way people who know and care about the yardages for proper handicap scoring can move to the correct "SCGA" (or whatever overseeing organization) markers.

How the courses setup their courses can mitigate a lot of the stigma. . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccotenj

i think it's the 2nd one, and i really don't care about the "intention of those who developed the game"...  personally, i think we get way too hung up on what some animal farmers came up with decades and decades ago (note: this is part of why we have a rule book that is too big to begin with, and has a set of "decisions" that is 10 times as long)...  to "believe" that those who "developed the game" had the foresight to lay out a set of rules/etc. that should never change is foolhardy...

we constantly hear that is the one sport that can be played from birth to death...   and it should be played on a course that is commensurate with the ability of the player...  otherwise, it's kinda like me deciding to play lebron james one-on-one...

Thank you, ccotenj.....what you post here is pretty much what Dan Camilli's book with it's  PGA/USGA and Trackman rock solid data indicate, - the numbers don't lie, gentlemen and anyone attempting to compose some alibi or excuse for denying them is not in reality ......"kinda like you deciding to play Lebron James one on one" -and expecting to do well, no less!  LOL

Most courses are now renaming their tee boxes based on a color code thus eliminating much of the stigma of some who fret about hitting from "Senior" tees and the like and over time those old labels will fade into the past - as already we see many more golfers checking the USGA/PGA "Tee It Forward" Distance Chart in order to play the most appropriate course length.  Please remember that the data leave little doubt that few amateurs should ever be playing a course much longer than approx. 6,000 yards.....please let that fact seep into your thinking process here and then apply it directly to your actual distances....not imagined ones, lads!

But methinks it's still more accurately depicted in Camilli's book as you attempting to hit home runs in a major league dimensioned ball park.....

alas, 'tis little more than some poor misguided blokes thinking with the wrong head........topping off their testosterone!   :)

Cheers.

I agree, that most people should not be playing anything over 6000 yards, but unless they are holding anyone up who cares. Plus the two bogey golfers in question are long (I mean really long) hitters, so it's not a question of them knowing their distances but rather the fact that they go long and way off course.

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I agree, that most people should not be playing anything over 6000 yards, but unless they are holding anyone up who cares. Plus the two bogey golfers in question are long (I mean really long) hitters, so it's not a question of them knowing their distances but rather the fact that they go long and way off course.

It really seems strange that over 6000 yards is considered too long. I guess it really shouldn't surprise me when I see how much shorter just about everyone I play with around here hits the ball though. I really think that my enjoyment of the game would diminish considerably if I were forced to play only from tees that were less than what I play now.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

I agree, that most people should not be playing anything over 6000 yards, but unless they are holding anyone up who cares. Plus the two bogey golfers in question are long (I mean really long) hitters, so it's not a question of them knowing their distances but rather the fact that they go long and way off course.

It really seems strange that over 6000 yards is considered too long. I guess it really shouldn't surprise me when I see how much shorter just about everyone I play with around here hits the ball though. I really think that my enjoyment of the game would diminish considerably if I were forced to play only from tees that were less than what I play now.

Right, so that's why I put you and Bill as exceptions to this generalized rule.

EDIT: BTW, no one is forcing you to play shorter tees. They are just suggesting it to try to see if your scoring can improve.

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While the hard data does indeed allow for some exceptions, the problem, as Camilli's book  points out , is alas, that far too many "Tom, Dick and Harry's" consider themselves exceptions .  LOL

Were there as many "exceptions" as those who consider themselves such, there wouldn't be the "rule" or "mean" now would there, eh?

Again, gents, the numbers don't lie and Camilli's book  cites a world-wide trackman study of over 10,000 golfers of all abilities which finds that the AVERAGE male amateur hits a drive 214 yards .

The book's chapter is aptly titled: "Tee It Forward vs. Testosterone"  and much of this thread certainly supports that view. :)

Cheers.

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Were there as many "exceptions" as those who consider themselves such, there wouldn't be the "rule" or "mean" now would there, eh?

Sure, of course. . .there are always many more who consider themselves as such. It's definitely an ego thing. But it could also be a value thing because some golfers want to get their monies worth when playing a course. Quite honestly, I used to be in this position too, and not too long ago. It's not worth trying to convert all these people to the shorted tees, because everyone thinks they are an exception.

I'm just stating that @Jeremie Boop and many other 15+ handicaps on this site are reasonably or very long hitters.

Again, gents, the numbers don't lie and Camilli's book  cites a world-wide trackman study of over 10,000 golfers of all abilities which finds that the AVERAGE male amateur hits a drive 214 yards.

Actually, according to R&A; 208 yards.

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I can play from the tips and  play in the low 80's and even break 80 occasionally, but golf is a game that is set up where par is average. I'll play where ever the foursome is playing from (even the womens occasionally). The beauty of moving forward is you can feel you are hitting the same clubs as the pros but of course not from the same distances. I will also make it a point to play forward on many golf course that aren't up to snuff and place squirrelly pins  on hills and near edges all day and have inconsistent rough around the greens because you need to compensate for lousy conditions that create "lottery golf".

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So the R&A; says 208 and Trackman says 214.......actually that's less than one club's difference there .....your point being, I assume, that yet another reputable source (R&A;)  chimes in with data supporting "Tee It Forward"?  So we now have all credible sources: PGA, USGA, R&A; and Trackman saying essentially the same thing !

In any case, the average male adult amateur still does not warrant a course length much beyond 6,000 yards as the PGA/USGA clearly state.

"tis but a difference without a distinction, eh? :)

What's actually happening here , as Camilli points out in his book, is a paradigm shift in golf culture. With the increase in courses moving to color coded tee boxes there will be less stigma about what were so long referred to as "Senior "Tees, etc.. This  along with the changing demographic of golfers as more young people, women and minorities take up the game and are introduced early on to the sanity that is "Tee It Forward", much of this testosterone driven rubbish will indeed subside and folks will naturally play more appropriate length courses moving forward.....'tis the very nature of change itself.

Camilli demonstrates the life cycle of new ideas and change in general by presenting the following :

1. Change is introduced to a culture

2.The Change is met with fierce resistance. (Some of which is present in this thread, for example)

3. The Change is reluctantly accepted and/or accommodated.(Again, some of which is present in this thread)

4.The Change becomes the new "normal". (This may well become evident when this topic is no longer a thread at all!   LOL)

Cheers.

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I can play from the tips and  play in the low 80's and even break 80 occasionally, but golf is a game that is set up where par is average. I'll play where ever the foursome is playing from (even the womens occasionally). The beauty of moving forward is you can feel you are hitting the same clubs as the pros but of course not from the same distances. I will also make it a point to play forward on many golf course that aren't up to snuff and place squirrelly pins  on hills and near edges all day and have inconsistent rough around the greens because you need to compensate for lousy conditions that create "lottery golf".

I like the idea. Also, some clubs have events or tournaments?? they call where you can play rotating tees for Forth of July (Red, White, and Blue). I've also played in local events where everyone hits from the front tees (champion flight golfers included) and this is fun. Just a lot of fun...probably what I desire the most out of golf at my age, skill level, and current physical limitations. Try different tees.

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So the R&A; says 208 and Trackman says 214.......actually that's less than one club's difference there .....your point being, I assume, that yet another reputable source (R&A;)  chimes in with data supporting "Tee It Forward"?  So we now have all credible sources: PGA, USGA, R&A; and Trackman saying essentially the same thing !

In any case, the average male adult amateur still does not warrant a course length much beyond 6,000 yards as the PGA/USGA clearly state.

"tis but a difference without a distinction, eh?   :)

What's actually happening here , as Camilli points out in his book, is a paradigm shift in golf culture. With the increase in courses moving to color coded tee boxes there will be less stigma about what were so long referred to as "Senior "Tees, etc.. This  along with the changing demographic of golfers as more young people, women and minorities take up the game and are introduced early on to the sanity that is "Tee It Forward", much of this testosterone driven rubbish will indeed subside and folks will naturally play more appropriate length courses moving forward.....'tis the very nature of change itself.

Camilli demonstrates the life cycle of new ideas and change in general by presenting the following :

1. Change is introduced to a culture

2.The Change is met with fierce resistance. (Some of which is present in this thread, for example)

3. The Change is reluctantly accepted and/or accommodated.(Again, some of which is present in this thread)

4.The Change becomes the new "normal". (This may well become evident when this topic is no longer a thread at all!   LOL)

Cheers.

So, I've been practicing what you are now suggesting for the past 6 months, and it has improved my game. It was the correct thing to do as I lacked distance due to my swing mechanics.

At this point, I'm certainly not lacking the distance to play longer courses as I comfortably play 440 yard par 4s with driver/mid iron, but even so, I still enjoy playing par 56 executive courses. It really doesn't matter to me as I play quite often. I usually play up to 5-6 times a week, I'm not right now because I am working on my swing on the range this month.

For many others, they play once or twice a week. They want to get their "full" round of golf, and I understand that as well. Others don't for some reason, and I'm not sure why?

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I typically play 6400-7000. I think the next time I play alone (no way in hell I could get any of the guys I play with to play up) I might try playing a shorter set of tees. It would be good practice for partial wedges and hitting less than driver off the tee.

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I typically play 6400-7000. I think the next time I play alone (no way in hell I could get any of the guys I play with to play up) I might try playing a shorter set of tees. It would be good practice for partial wedges and hitting less than driver off the tee.

Sure, and this is a good reason why you play the longer tees.

If you do try the shorter tees, you would need to do it for some number of rounds for it to be of any help. I wouldn't expect you to be able to suddenly start shooting par just because you're using a pitch approach shots or driving pin high on a couple greens. Takes many rounds. . .

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