Vijay Singh admits to using banned substance in Sports Illustrated ...

[boogielicious]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The body releases  GH during deep sleep periods, therefore any professional golfer using sleep aides is unnaturally boosting the GH levels as well.  When does the madness stop?

It is a rule.  I don't make the rules of golf or enforce them.  There are some rules in golf that seem to give us no advantage, but we follow them.  Example is if a ball moves after you address it.  Do you really get an advantage if the ball moves 1/2 inch?  No, but it is a rule.

Vijay broke a rule no matter how inane it seems.

[WUTiger]

Originally Posted by joekelly

... The PGA tour has no sterling record on drug testing so could be that they are partly to blame for not taking this drugs  issue seriously, years ago.  ...

When I was a high school sophomore, I went for my annual check-up with the family doctor. The doc was a big golfer, so Mom told him I was interested in golf.

We just talked golf for about five minutes, and then he gave me some fatherly advice: Stay away from downers!

Doc said he went to a PGA tournament, and saw several of the pros taking Quaaludes or tranquilizers before they teed off. "It wasn't allergy medicine," he said. Fellow doctors told him of pros being treated for addiction.

This was back in 1967 . Beta blockers is just another chapter in the long story of drugs on tour.

And, there's always alcohol. Back around 1970, PGA tour veteran Doug Sanders was famous for his short backswing, loud clothes, and eventually his drinking. He had women bring him double vodka tonics every three or four holes while he played. Sanders later admitted all his tournaments wins came by early summer because he was just too shaky by midseason.

The alcohol kept him calm for a few weeks, but took its toll. Sanders eventually kicked the drinking, and long ago publicly admitted his problem.

In modern times, we have John Daly and others.

As for Vijay, I'll give him the benefit of a doubt. The deer stuff was billed as an alternative to steroids by SWATS, and suddenly it ends up as a banned substance. PGA enforcement against Vijay can be attacked as an e x post facto law: the PGA refined the rule after he used it.

[newtogolf]

None of us make the rules or enforce them that doesn't stop us from discussing them.  Golf, like most professional sports has over compensated for their lack of testing in order to appease the media and public.

If a pro golfer has a sore knee I'd bet Advil is going to provide him more of a competitive advantage than deer antler spray.  A golfer taking a prescribed sleep medication, ZMA or melatonin will probably produce more HGH than some of the banned supplements on their list that could result in a suspension.  Does golf have an acid test of what really constitutes a PED?

Quote:

It is a rule.  I don't make the rules of golf or enforce them.  There are some rules in golf that seem to give us no advantage, but we follow them.  Example is if a ball moves after you address it.  Do you really get an advantage if the ball moves 1/2 inch?  No, but it is a rule.

Vijay broke a rule no matter how inane it seems.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Does golf have an acid test of what really constitutes a PED?

They piggy backed on the existing Olympic and other rules, I believe. It's the "best" of what's available.

[newtogolf]

I guess if that's the "best" available there's little hope for it changing.  The Olympic rules are over-restrictive, imo.  Many substances that are on their list are not true PED's and can't even be tested for but I understand the intent .

Originally Posted by iacas

They piggy backed on the existing Olympic and other rules, I believe. It's the "best" of what's available.

[boogielicious]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I guess if that's the "best" available there's little hope for it changing.  The Olympic rules are over-restrictive, imo.  Many substances that are on their list are not true PED's and can't even be tested for but I understand the intent .

Valid points and well stated by you.  One Romanian gymnast lost her gold medal in Beijing for taking pseudophedrine for a cold.  It is a difficult debate and both sides have a good argument.

[newtogolf]

Thanks, I used to be a personal trainer, I've seen what true PED's can do especially if stacked properly.  There aren't any over the counter supplements today that can come even slightly close to the effects of true PEDS like dianabol, deca, winstrol or clenbuterol.

Actually the best ever over the counter supplement was Andro that McGwire got caught with in his locker, that actually worked.  Since then Patrick Arnold had a few products that were slightly effective but the results were nothing compared to real steroids and HGH.  Just about any over the counter supplement that is shown to work today quickly becomes a controlled substance and gets removed from the shelves.

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Valid points and well stated by you.  One Romanian gymnast lost her gold medal in Beijing for taking pseudophedrine for a cold.  It is a difficult debate and both sides have a good argument.

[JetFan1983]

Someone should do a skit where an adult deer is interviewed by Doctor Phil for taking advantage of Vijay's gullible nature a la Manti Te'o. Someone call Family Guy.

[dave67az]

If only Vijay could get Browning as a sponsor...deer antler logos on everything he uses.

[caniac6]

I really don't understand why Vijay is being allowed to play after admitting to using a banned substance. I don't think the intention matters. The key word is banned. I wonder what would happen if a golfer without Vijay's record admitted to using a banned substance? Keegan Bradley and Web Simpson both won majors using anchored putters. I doubt the Tour will allow them to use them for several tournaments after the ban goes into effect. If a player mistakenly breaks a rule, doesn't take a penalty,and signs an inncorrect card, he is dq. Vijay admitted to breaking a rule. He should not only be suspended, he should be made to return an money won while taking the banned substance.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by caniac6

I really don't understand why Vijay is being allowed to play after admitting to using a banned substance. I don't think the intention matters. The key word is banned. I wonder what would happen if a golfer without Vijay's record admitted to using a banned substance? Keegan Bradley and Web Simpson both won majors using anchored putters. I doubt the Tour will allow them to use them for several tournaments after the ban goes into effect. If a player mistakenly breaks a rule, doesn't take a penalty,and signs an inncorrect card, he is dq. Vijay admitted to breaking a rule. He should not only be suspended, he should be made to return an money won while taking the banned substance.

They haven't made a ruling yet, have they?  They can't disallow him from playing until they make a ruling, I don't believe.  In baseball, when a guy tests positive for PEDs, we don't find out right when the test occurs, we find out weeks later when they announce the ruling.  The only difference here is Vijay's open-ness from the beginning.

I would suspect that there is absolutely going to be repercussions, either suspension or fine or what have you, but they have to do their "due dilligence" first and be fair to everybody.

[boogielicious]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Someone should do a skit where an adult deer is interviewed by Doctor Phil for taking advantage of Vijay's gullible nature a la Manti Te'o. Someone call Family Guy.

LOL! We'd have to get Seth McFarlane to like golf!

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Someone should do a skit where an adult deer is interviewed by Doctor Phil for taking advantage of Vijay's gullible nature a la Manti Te'o. Someone call Family Guy.

LOL! We'd have to get Seth McFarlane to like golf!

Sorry this is so off-topic, but this had to be one of the funniest Family Guy jokes they've had so far:

Wow.... lame. No embedding. That's what I get for being off-topic. PS - Probably advisable to not watch at work.

OK fine, to stay on topic: I kinda liked turtleback's original suggestion of a fine and a three month suspension, but now I'm thinking he could get a longer sentence given what they've been saying on Golf Channel. Honestly though, I don't really mind what they decide to do.... I just wanted to post that clip

[CraiginKSA]

Thanks, I used to be a personal trainer, I've seen what true PED's can do especially if stacked properly.  There aren't any over the counter supplements today that can come even slightly close to the effects of true PEDS like dianabol, deca, winstrol or clenbuterol.  Actually the best ever over the counter supplement was Andro that McGwire got caught with in his locker, that actually worked.  Since then Patrick Arnold had a few products that were slightly effective but the results were nothing compared to real steroids and HGH.  Just about any over the counter supplement that is shown to work today quickly becomes a controlled substance and gets removed from the shelves.

Andro was awesome. Tasted like battery acid. At least the kind I was using. Administered sub-lingual. Trouble was, after you went off it, you lost your mass pretty quickly. I can see how people would chase that growth by cycling other substances. That stuff really worked.

[newtogolf]

There were a few versions, most took the pill form because the taste was very bad.  It worked well but no different from any steroid in that once you went off it was difficult to retain the gains.

Originally Posted by CraiginKSA

Andro was awesome. Tasted like battery acid. At least the kind I was using. Administered sub-lingual. Trouble was, after you went off it, you lost your mass pretty quickly. I can see how people would chase that growth by cycling other substances. That stuff really worked.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by caniac6

I really don't understand why Vijay is being allowed to play after admitting to using a banned substance. I don't think the intention matters. The key word is banned. I wonder what would happen if a golfer without Vijay's record admitted to using a banned substance? Keegan Bradley and Web Simpson both won majors using anchored putters. I doubt the Tour will allow them to use them for several tournaments after the ban goes into effect. If a player mistakenly breaks a rule, doesn't take a penalty,and signs an inncorrect card, he is dq. Vijay admitted to breaking a rule. He should not only be suspended, he should be made to return an money won while taking the banned substance.

Yeah.  And why even have a trial after someone confesses to something.

A funny little thing called Due Process, which even private organizations have to afford its members or employees before depriving them of their livelihood.  And just how did you determine that the appropriate punishment for his offense is suspension or, as you more radically called for, retroactive suspension.  Are you privy to the Tour's schedule of punishments for various offenses?  Because if you are I am sure the golf news reporters would pay you big bucks for a copy of that.  How do you know the Tour does not have a suspended sentence policy for first time offenses? And am pretty sure that the tour, unlike you, differentiates between a violation of the Rules of Golf, and a violation of Tour policy.  They are not the same and should not and aren't treated the same.

[caniac6]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Yeah.  And why even have a trial after someone confesses to something.

A funny little thing called Due Process, which even private organizations have to afford its members or employees before depriving them of their livelihood.  And just how did you determine that the appropriate punishment for his offense is suspension or, as you more radically called for, retroactive suspension.  Are you privy to the Tour's schedule of punishments for various offenses?  Because if you are I am sure the golf news reporters would pay you big bucks for a copy of that.  How do you know the Tour does not have a suspended sentence policy for first time offenses? And am pretty sure that the tour, unlike you, differentiates between a violation of the Rules of Golf, and a violation of Tour policy.  They are not the same and should not and aren't treated the same.

I guess I don't see the difference between Vijay and athletes in other sports. An Olympic athlete is tested after an event, and if the test is positive, their medal is taken. Your right, I don't know if first time offenders are treated differently by the PGA tour, but first time offenders in baseball get 50 games which is just a bit less than a third of the season. Lance Armstrong was stripped of all his Tour de France titles, so I don't see anything wrong with retroactive punishment.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Yeah.  And why even have a trial after someone confesses to something.

A funny little thing called Due Process, which even private organizations have to afford its members or employees before depriving them of their livelihood.  And just how did you determine that the appropriate punishment for his offense is suspension or, as you more radically called for, retroactive suspension.  Are you privy to the Tour's schedule of punishments for various offenses?  Because if you are I am sure the golf news reporters would pay you big bucks for a copy of that.  How do you know the Tour does not have a suspended sentence policy for first time offenses? And am pretty sure that the tour, unlike you, differentiates between a violation of the Rules of Golf, and a violation of Tour policy.  They are not the same and should not and aren't treated the same.

I'm with you, to some extent.

I don't necessarily think a positive test is necessary when a guy confesses.  And I don't think a big trial is needed, either.  I think a brief investigation into his confession is all that's needed.

Keep in mind, people confess for a myriad of reasons.  Not all confessions are true.  Wasn't that long ago that the stories were coming out about how rampant, racial prejudice led some bad cops (mostly in small towns in the south, from what I can recall) to coerce suspects to confess to crimes they didn't commit by threatening their or their families' lives.

Hollywood stars (and their agents) have also been known to drum up and leak "scandals" in order to make them appear relevant again.  Sometimes people confess simply to cover for someone else.

I'm not saying either of these is what happened in Vijay's case, but because confessions aren't always truth, someone (PGA disciplinary board?) needs to sit down with Vijay on-the-record and figure out why he said what he said, whether or not he did what he said, and how many events it might have affected (if any).  If he was lying for some stupid reason, he should be dealt with the same way anyone is dealt with who commits offenses "detrimental to the sport".  If he admits to the board he used a banned substance, then he should be dealt with the same way any other doper would be dealt with.

I don't buy Vijay's claim that he used deer antler spray but he didn't know it had a banned substance in it.  Here's the problem with that logic.  The dude used a chemical/substance which he thought would aid him in some way.  Pro athletes (and amateur, for that matter) don't seem to be getting the message.  Look, people...sports are about people competing on equal ground.  If you're putting something in or on your body for the sole purpose of improving your performance, whether it's banned or not, you are guilty of using a performance-enhancing product.

Is that really so difficult for these idiots to understand?  How the HELL can someone use anything like that and still have any shred of self-respect?  I won't apologize to the guys on here who have used them, either, because we all do stupid things from time to time and I'll just assume that you weren't thinking clearly when you did it.  I've made some stupid mistakes in my life, too.  I'm thankful I've never traded my dignity for any opportunity to "win" at anything, whether it's in a job or anything else.  I hope I never get to such a low point in my life that I'm tempted to.  But I guess that's why I'll never get the thought process that makes a guy cheat (and whether or not Vijay knew it had a "banned substance" in it, he surely must have realized it was cheating, by definition).