edel putters vs seemore

[cliffj]

Being one who has gone the Edel route after buying 4-5 putters a year for years I can only say that one must go through the unique Edel putter fitting to have any concept of how different the results can be. I have never read or heard of anyone who was not helped having home through the fitting. I mean, how many other putters actually work on getting the correct amount of weight up in the butt end of a club along with other variables such as getting correct loft to account for a players forward press?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by cliffj

... after buying 4-5 putters a year for years ...

Wow!  Cliff, you must have some collection!

[Clambake]

Cliff, does your garage look like this (Arnold Palmer's)?

[Jspangler]

Being one who has gone the Edel route after buying 4-5 putters a year for years I can only say that one must go through the unique Edel putter fitting to have any concept of how different the results can be. I have never read or heard of anyone who was not helped having home through the fitting. I mean, how many other putters actually work on getting the correct amount of weight up in the butt end of a club along with other variables such as getting correct loft to account for a players forward press?

While i have not done an Edel fitting i have gone through a SAM putter fitting which helped me picking my putter. But let me ask you this, even after all the "extensive" fitting, do you make everything inside 10'? I doubt it, but if you could guarantee me everything in 10' ill head to the fitters right now. It doesn't matter what fitting you go through that club will not put the ball in the hole for you.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Jspangler

I read those comments as bashing Seemore.

They aren't. You agreed with most (all?) of them.

Originally Posted by Jspangler

I think i would rather deal with a company great customer service, rather than an arrogent admin. Also you can go through their "extensive" fitting but a bad putter is going to be a bad putter regardless. It will not make a 36 putts/round a 25 putts/round player.

Ah. So it's a case of you seeing what you want to see despite a severe lack of evidence to the contrary.

I do not feel I was "arrogant" in my post. And I disagree with you that an Edel is a "bad" putter. They're milled and made from high quality components and assembled right here in the U.S. by good people.

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Even with SeeMore, which I used, having taken lessons from Pat O'Brien, they advise you to use their triangulator to see where you're aiming and then to make compensations to get "true" aim. With an Edel, if you are fit right, there are no compensations.

Yes, some people have said "I can just learn to aim my putter, right?" And while that may be possible, be serious: how many people do you think are literally going to practice (to keep in tune) aiming their putters?

Originally Posted by Jspangler

While i have not done an Edel fitting i have gone through a SAM putter fitting which helped me picking my putter. But let me ask you this, even after all the "extensive" fitting, do you make everything inside 10'? I doubt it, but if you could guarantee me everything in 10' ill head to the fitters right now. It doesn't matter what fitting you go through that club will not put the ball in the hole for you.

What's that have to do with anything? Now you're just being silly.

A properly fit putter increases the odds of putting well. A poorly fit putter decreases the odds of putting well. Or more specifically, a properly fit putter increases the odds of starting a ball online and hitting it the proper speed/distance, while a poorly fit putter has the opposite effect.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Jspangler

Also you can go through their "extensive" fitting but a bad putter is going to be a bad putter regardless. It will not make a 36 putts/round a 25 putts/round player.

Originally Posted by iacas

And I disagree with you that an Edel is a "bad" putter. They're milled and made from high quality components and assembled right here in the U.S. by good people.

Erik, to be fair (not sure why, but anyway) I don't think that's what he meant.  He was just careless with his use of prepositions, and what he meant was that a golfer who is a bad putter is still going to be a bad putter.

Jspangler, that will obviously be true.  Nobody has claimed anything otherwise.  All Erik has said is that a properly fit Edel will make it easier to point the putter where you think you are pointing it.  Bad putters (people) are bad because they still can't hit it straight, nor can they hit it the right distance.  So to you comment, I ,and pretty much everybody else, would agree with you and say "duh."

[Jspangler]

Originally Posted by iacas

They aren't. You agreed with most (all?) of them.

Ah. So it's a case of you seeing what you want to see despite a severe lack of evidence to the contrary.

I do not feel I was "arrogant" in my post. And I disagree with you that an Edel is a "bad" putter. They're milled and made from high quality components and assembled right here in the U.S. by good people.

Yes, some people have said "I can just learn to aim my putter, right?" And while that may be possible, be serious: how many people do you think are literally going to practice (to keep in tune) aiming their putters?

What's that have to do with anything? Now you're just being silly.

A properly fit putter increases the odds of putting well. A poorly fit putter decreases the odds of putting well. Or more specifically, a properly fit putter increases the odds of starting a ball online and hitting it the proper speed/distance, while a poorly fit putter has the opposite effect.

I was not saying Edel putters are bad putters, I was saying a bad putter(person) is going to be a bad putter with or without that putter(club). If you can't find the line or have distance control no putter is going to help them.

It is not being silly you said that Seemore putters can be aimed well left or right and be inside the dot. That is true if you are lining up a 10 footer well left of the hole it doesn't matter if you have the dot covered up that ball is going left. The same is going to happen with the Edel, you aim it well left that ball is going left. I am not discounting what Edel offers, I had looked at getting one made myself. Maybe you weren't trying to bash Seemore, I read it as you were. All I know is have a Seemore DB4-x Private Reserve with Matrix PZ135 and Superstroke grip and NO Edel putter will work better for me.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Erik, to be fair (not sure why, but anyway) I don't think that's what he meant.  He was just careless with his use of prepositions, and what he meant was that a golfer who is a bad putter is still going to be a bad putter.

Ah, yes. That's certainly possible.

I'll disagree with that though too. Bad putters can learn to be good putters, and they'll become better with a putter that's fit for them (regardless of who makes it - though I suppose they're relying on luck a bit if they choose one that doesn't include a fitting).

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Jspangler, that will obviously be true.  Nobody has claimed anything otherwise.  All Erik has said is that a properly fit Edel will make it easier to point the putter where you think you are pointing it.  Bad putters (people) are bad because they still can't hit it straight, nor can they hit it the right distance.  So to you comment, I ,and pretty much everybody else, would agree with you and say "duh."

Yes.

Originally Posted by Jspangler

I was not saying Edel putters are bad putters, I was saying a bad putter(person) is going to be a bad putter with or without that putter(club). If you can't find the line or have distance control no putter is going to help them.

Yes, I misunderstood what you said there.

As I said above I disagree. They can get better. Perhaps a "bad" putter can turn into a "mediocre" or an "average" putter. Properly fit putters make aiming better and make controlling distance easier.

Originally Posted by Jspangler

It is not being silly you said that Seemore putters can be aimed well left or right and be inside the dot. That is true if you are lining up a 10 footer well left of the hole it doesn't matter if you have the dot covered up that ball is going left. The same is going to happen with the Edel, you aim it well left that ball is going left. I am not discounting what Edel offers, I had looked at getting one made myself. Maybe you weren't trying to bash Seemore, I read it as you were.

It is being silly because nobody with two brain cells or more will ever make such a guarantee. It's ridiculous. Silly. I've never said that about Edel putters, and nobody can say that about any putter.

The point behind Edel fitting is that the bolded part is not likely to occur if you've been fit with a putter you can aim. You should aim it great. And control distance more easily.

I haven't once bashed SeeMore. They make a good putter, as do the other companies you listed. They don't have the fitting system, though.

[newtogolf]

If you find a putter manufacturer that guarantees you make everything inside 10' let me know I'll buy it tomorrow.

I own a bunch of putters, a few SC, Bettinardi's, and Odyssey's Pro's.  I'll probably get fitted and buy an Edel once I'm confident I have a putting stroke I want to stick with.  That said, the putter doesn't help you read the green so I doubt anyone will guarantee you hole out every 10' putt.

It makes sense to have a putter custom fitted and built to how you putt so you can aim it directly at your target with confidence.  If you have that with your Seemore then you're set and don't need another putter.

Originally Posted by Jspangler

While i have not done an Edel fitting i have gone through a SAM putter fitting which helped me picking my putter. But let me ask you this, even after all the "extensive" fitting, do you make everything inside 10'? I doubt it, but if you could guarantee me everything in 10' ill head to the fitters right now. It doesn't matter what fitting you go through that club will not put the ball in the hole for you.

[Jspangler]

Ah, yes. That's certainly possible. I'll disagree with that though too. Bad putters can learn to be good putters, and they'll become better with a putter that's fit for them (regardless of who makes it - though I suppose they're relying on luck a bit if they choose one that doesn't include a fitting). Yes. Yes, I misunderstood what you said there. As I said above I disagree. They can get better. Perhaps a "bad" putter can turn into a "mediocre" or an "average" putter. Properly fit putters make aiming better and make controlling distance easier. It is being silly because nobody with two brain cells or more will ever make such a guarantee. It's ridiculous. Silly. I've never said that about Edel putters, and nobody can say that about any putter. The point behind Edel fitting is that the bolded part is not likely to occur if you've been fit with a putter you can aim. You should aim it great. And control distance more easily. I haven't once bashed SeeMore. They make a good putter, as do the other companies you listed. They don't have the fitting system, though.

Then I will take back me calling you arrogant, I misread your comments as you bashing your competition. I never said that Seemores or any putter will guarantee everything inside 10', I was simply stating that even going through the Edel fitting, its still on you to make those 10 footers. Also what other techniques other than SAM putter lab that seperates you from your competition?

[Clambake]

Amazing that the simple question of Seemore vs. Edel can create such polarized and misdirected posts.   Erik arrogant about Edel?   I sure don't think so.   Passionate, yes, but not arrogant.  And he was that way before he became an Edel fitter - to me he simply seems passionate about anything that can make us common golfers get better, whether it is in the swing or the equipment.

What seems to be missing in all this discussion is "What truly are the fundamental differences between the two companies' approaches?"   Both make excellent putters, but SeeMore and Edel are coming at the problem of making someone a better putter through different directions.

SeeMore

The SeeMore putters have proven themselves on Tour and for many amateur golfers, and they make quality putters in a variety of shapes and sizes.   Their primary distinction is the red dot and little sight lines (their "RST technology" that are designed to help ensure a consistent ball, hand, and eye position in order to make the stroke more consistent.    If you keep everything lined up, it helps make sure the putter is delivered at the ball the same way every time with a consistent loft.       What the RST does not do is aid one's perception of where the putter is initially aimed.      It is up to the user to sort through the SeeMore product line and find the putter that has a head shape, length, and weight that they feel works best for their swing.

Edel

Edel's approach is targeted towards that latter problem: to find the best putter style for the user that addresses how that individual person perceives where the putter is aimed, and then to find the right weight and balance to help them make a controllable stroke.     Every person perceives where they think the putter is aimed a little differently, and that is the whole premise behind Edel's philosophy.    There approach is somewhat predicated on the user having a fairly consistent stroke with decent enough fundamentals that they can best benefit from something that fits their brain's interpretation of what they see and their stroke physiology.

They two companies' approaches are to address different problems for different people .   It isn't really a SeeMore vs. Edel question.    If you're having issues with your the consistency of how you deliver the putter head on the ball, SeeMore's technology may help.    If you can figure out which putter head fits your aim perception the best, they can be a great solution.      If you have a reasonably consistent stroke, Edel takes fitting the putter to your eye to a whole new level.    I'd characterize that the SeeMore is focused on repeatability , and Edel on controllability .     It's a pity that the two can't be combined, as that would probably make a really great solution!

Tour Use?

We see a number of the SeeMore putters on Tour, probably most notably Zach Johnson.   So why don't we see any Edels out there?    I think the answer is also closely related to why we see so many Scotty's on Tour.     Edel's major premise is to finely tune a putter that fits you, and among putter manufacturers they probably the ones that have brought the finest degree of variability and locations to the amateur masses.     Scotty, however, has long provided this same service to the Tour pros.    In a way, the pros don't need Edel as much as us amateurs.   Cameron's putter studio in the north San Diego county area has been the destination of Tour pros for years, and they get a detailed analysis using high speed cameras and other measurement tools.  For Cameron, this is also very smart marketing - by providing this extensive service he gets more of his putters in Tour pros' hands than any other manufacturer, and that has made him a pretty wealthy man.    In some ways, Edel mimics the whole treatment that a Tour pro gets at Cameron's studio.

My Recent Edel Experience

Disappointed with my general putting performance, I've been looking at different putters to see if there might be something that worked better for me.   I checked out the SeeMore putters, and quickly found that my stroke was pretty consistent already with what their RST technology was trying to do - without focusing on it, I found I already kept the little dot nicely centered throughout my stroke.    That was a nice reinforcement that I must be doing something right.      In my quest, I recently dropped by my local Edel fitter to see what it was all about.   I'm pretty objective, so I had no preconceived notions that this was the holy grail, but I do feel that the psychology of perception and feel are pretty intertwined with being able to putt well, so I felt there might be something to the Edel approach.

Since the fitter had a little time to kill, he grabbed the aiming tools from his Edel kit and we headed to the range to see how my current putter stacks up.        The fitter set up his little black screen background and laser, and we checked the aim with my putter where I lined up multiple times to a simulated cup about 8 feet away.    Here is where it got very interesting.  I was absolutely dead on consistently aimed.   The problem was I was consistently aimed about 3" outside the left edge of the cup.      My putter was an Anser-style, with a single sight line on the flange.     The fitter took a little piece of tape to cover the line, and then we experimented with different marks using a Sharpie.    After a little trial and error, he came upon a solution that had me consistently lining up dead at the center.    The solution?    Cover the sight line completely, and put a single little dot on the top of the head.

We went back and forth multiple times on this and it was astounding how consistent I was between the solutions.      Sight line visible, I'd aim left.     Dot only, I'd aim right on.     At this point the fitter was happy to send my on my way with no charge, suggesting I could probably improve quite a bit by simply keeping a little tape on the back and a Sharpie dot.     Distance control has been my other issue, so I went ahead and did the full Edel fitting the next day to see if things could be improved.

Starting from scratch with the Edel heads, some experimenting quickly validated the previous days results and showed that I was best staying with the Anser-style head and a hosel similar to what I was already using, but put an aiming dot and no sight lines on the putter.    Again, we went back and forth for about an hour doing blind tests and tweaking only a variable at a time, and the results were consistent.    We also then spent some time with a high speed camera stroking putts in front of a measuring stick to pick the loft that provides the best roll for my stroke; this didn't take very long, but looking at the video it was surprising how much difference a degree one way or the other had on how much the ball skidded.

We then spent almost another hour on the weighting, and again it was very revealing.     Edel's process doesn't just concern itself with how heavy of putter head you like, but the distribution of weight throughout the shaft.     We eventually came on a solution with some weight anchored about 6 inches down from the shaft butt, and my distance control was greatly improved.     Again, we went back and forth with the different combos to reduce the variables and make sure the effect we were seeing was really caused by the weight changes and not just by my zeroing in on the distances on the green.

I've only had my new Edel a week and haven't been able to get out on the course yet, but I have noticed that I am more consistent on the practice green.    No, I'm not making every 10 footer, but it seems like I'm making more of them, and I'm also leaving a lot more 30 footers within a couple feet than I used to.     If the Edel is only worth a stroke every few rounds, it will have been worth it to me.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Clambake

Amazing that the simple question of Seemore vs. Edel can create such polarized and misdirected posts.   Erik arrogant about Edel?   I sure don't think so.   Passionate, yes, but not arrogant.  And he was that way before he became an Edel fitter - to me he simply seems passionate about anything that can make us common golfers get better, whether it is in the swing or the equipment.

What seems to be missing in all this discussion is "What truly are the fundamental differences between the two companies' approaches?"   Both make excellent putters, but SeeMore and Edel are coming at the problem of making someone a better putter through different directions.

SeeMore

The SeeMore putters have proven themselves on Tour and for many amateur golfers, and they make quality putters in a variety of shapes and sizes.   Their primary distinction is the red dot and little sight lines (their "RST technology" that are designed to help ensure a consistent ball, hand, and eye position in order to make the stroke more consistent.    If you keep everything lined up, it helps make sure the putter is delivered at the ball the same way every time with a consistent loft.       What the RST does not do is aid one's perception of where the putter is initially aimed.      It is up to the user to sort through the SeeMore product line and find the putter that has a head shape, length, and weight that they feel works best for their swing.

Edel

Edel's approach is targeted towards that latter problem: to find the best putter style for the user that addresses how that individual person perceives where the putter is aimed, and then to find the right weight and balance to help them make a controllable stroke.     Every person perceives where they think the putter is aimed a little differently, and that is the whole premise behind Edel's philosophy.    There approach is somewhat predicated on the user having a fairly consistent stroke with decent enough fundamentals that they can best benefit from something that fits their brain's interpretation of what they see and their stroke physiology.

They two companies' approaches are to address different problems for different people.   It isn't really a SeeMore vs. Edel question.    If you're having issues with your the consistency of how you deliver the putter head on the ball, SeeMore's technology may help.    If you can figure out which putter head fits your aim perception the best, they can be a great solution.      If you have a reasonably consistent stroke, Edel takes fitting the putter to your eye to a whole new level.    I'd characterize that the SeeMore is focused on repeatability, and Edel on controllability.     It's a pity that the two can't be combined, as that would probably make a really great solution!

Tour Use?

We see a number of the SeeMore putters on Tour, probably most notably Zach Johnson.   So why don't we see any Edels out there?    I think the answer is also closely related to why we see so many Scotty's on Tour.     Edel's major premise is to finely tune a putter that fits you, and among putter manufacturers they probably the ones that have brought the finest degree of variability and locations to the amateur masses.     Scotty, however, has long provided this same service to the Tour pros.    In a way, the pros don't need Edel as much as us amateurs.   Cameron's putter studio in the north San Diego county area has been the destination of Tour pros for years, and they get a detailed analysis using high speed cameras and other measurement tools.  For Cameron, this is also very smart marketing - by providing this extensive service he gets more of his putters in Tour pros' hands than any other manufacturer, and that has made him a pretty wealthy man.    In some ways, Edel mimics the whole treatment that a Tour pro gets at Cameron's studio.

My Recent Edel Experience

Disappointed with my general putting performance, I've been looking at different putters to see if there might be something that worked better for me.   I checked out the SeeMore putters, and quickly found that my stroke was pretty consistent already with what their RST technology was trying to do - without focusing on it, I found I already kept the little dot nicely centered throughout my stroke.    That was a nice reinforcement that I must be doing something right.      In my quest, I recently dropped by my local Edel fitter to see what it was all about.   I'm pretty objective, so I had no preconceived notions that this was the holy grail, but I do feel that the psychology of perception and feel are pretty intertwined with being able to putt well, so I felt there might be something to the Edel approach.

Since the fitter had a little time to kill, he grabbed the aiming tools from his Edel kit and we headed to the range to see how my current putter stacks up.        The fitter set up his little black screen background and laser, and we checked the aim with my putter where I lined up multiple times to a simulated cup about 8 feet away.    Here is where it got very interesting.  I was absolutely dead on consistently aimed.   The problem was I was consistently aimed about 3" outside the left edge of the cup.      My putter was an Anser-style, with a single sight line on the flange.     The fitter took a little piece of tape to cover the line, and then we experimented with different marks using a Sharpie.    After a little trial and error, he came upon a solution that had me consistently lining up dead at the center.    The solution?    Cover the sight line completely, and put a single little dot on the top of the head.

We went back and forth multiple times on this and it was astounding how consistent I was between the solutions.      Sight line visible, I'd aim left.     Dot only, I'd aim right on.     At this point the fitter was happy to send my on my way with no charge, suggesting I could probably improve quite a bit by simply keeping a little tape on the back and a Sharpie dot.     Distance control has been my other issue, so I went ahead and did the full Edel fitting the next day to see if things could be improved.

Starting from scratch with the Edel heads, some experimenting quickly validated the previous days results and showed that I was best staying with the Anser-style head and a hosel similar to what I was already using, but put an aiming dot and no sight lines on the putter.    Again, we went back and forth for about an hour doing blind tests and tweaking only a variable at a time, and the results were consistent.    We also then spent some time with a high speed camera stroking putts in front of a measuring stick to pick the loft that provides the best roll for my stroke; this didn't take very long, but looking at the video it was surprising how much difference a degree one way or the other had on how much the ball skidded.

We then spent almost another hour on the weighting, and again it was very revealing.     Edel's process doesn't just concern itself with how heavy of putter head you like, but the distribution of weight throughout the shaft.     We eventually came on a solution with some weight anchored about 6 inches down from the shaft butt, and my distance control was greatly improved.     Again, we went back and forth with the different combos to reduce the variables and make sure the effect we were seeing was really caused by the weight changes and not just by my zeroing in on the distances on the green.

I've only had my new Edel a week and haven't been able to get out on the course yet, but I have noticed that I am more consistent on the practice green.    No, I'm not making every 10 footer, but it seems like I'm making more of them, and I'm also leaving a lot more 30 footers within a couple feet than I used to.     If the Edel is only worth a stroke every few rounds, it will have been worth it to me.

Dang, Clambake!  Why'd you wait so long?  Fantastic post!

One question ... who's your Edel fitter?  If I remember the Edel website correctly, the one you are probably referring to is the San Diego Golf Institute at Riverwalk, and I know of at least one (well, two actually) guys that work there.  I'm kind of smack dab between SDGI and another fitter who's up in Long Beach.  Sounds like I couldn't go wrong making the trek south. :)

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Wow!  Cliff, you must have some collection!

I was the same way - I sold them as I went along to finance the next purchase...

This thread is at least informative.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

One question ... who's your Edel fitter?  If I remember the Edel website correctly, the one you are probably referring to is the San Diego Golf Institute at Riverwalk, and I know of at least one (well, two actually) guys that work there.  I'm kind of smack dab between SDGI and another fitter who's up in Long Beach.  Sounds like I couldn't go wrong making the trek south. :)

Golfingdad, I sent you a PM with details.

[payne7744]

WOW, never thought i would get so much feedback, Ive just enjoyed the info coming in. (btw my 1st post)    I wanted a putter that offered something different and i narrowed it down to what i thought were two great choices, seemore or edel. All i wanted was good knowledgeable information on the differences between two very fine options. The info from IACAS and  CLAMBAKE seem to make alot of sense and i did not feel one was being pushed over another. That being said, i feel i recieved the nessary info. to make a much more informed decision on my next putter purchase.

I, like many others have way to many putters but nothing with a different concept.  Thanks for all the replies!

Mike

[colin007]

Welcome to the Sandtrap, Mike! Let us know what you end up getting.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

I was the same way - I sold them as I went along to finance the next purchase...

Originally Posted by payne7744

I, like many others have way to many putters but nothing with a different concept.  Thanks for all the replies!

Mike

I feel like I'm missing the boat here.  I own 3 putters, 2 of them were free, and the one I use, that I bought i about 20 years ago, cost me $50.

[hacker101]

Originally Posted by Clambake

Cliff, does your garage look like this (Arnold Palmer's)?

WOW how would you ever decide what one to grab in the morning, my head hurts just looking at that.