2013 Masters Discussion Thread, Update with Tiger's Illegal Drop (Post #343)

[Golfingdad]

I'm not sure about that. He should abide by the decision of the committee in the same way that he should if he didn't like the decision. This will reflect badly on those who made the decision, not Tiger. That said I really hope he doesn't win now as there would always be a question mark over it should he do so.

Nailed it.

[Zeph]

Of course you are, but then you don't know the rules or the circumstances, so you are just going off half cocked without a clue as to what is really going on.  You don't even know if the ruling has been made that there was no infraction at all.  The only thing that matters is whether he dropped in a correct place under either option 'a' or 'b' of rule 26-1, even if it was by accident.  If he did then it doesn't matter what you or anyone else "thinks".  All that matters is that when he played, he played from a correct place under the rules.  if not, then he will be penalized like anyone else.

Well, he didn't. He said he went back two yards himself, which the TV-pictures also show. There is no doubt whether he played from the wrong position or not. The rule under evaluation here is 33-7.

[eich41]

Originally Posted by clutchshot

He took his 2 stroke penalty...

He didn't know he had broke a rule when he signed the scorecard...

The committee ruled that he did not break a rule before he signed a scorecard.

And WHAT advantage did he gain? He took 2 strokes for moving the ball back 2 feet? Think he would have preferred to just take a stroke and play it from the divot.

He broke a very common rule (unknowingly or not doesn't matter happens all the time on tour).  He could have clarified prior to signing his card.  Once you sign an incorrect card you are DQ'd.  EOS

[clutchshot]

All I can say is whoever wins this thing is not deserving... If we played this out 1000 more times, that ball never would hit that pin and bounce into the water again. The way Tiger is playing this year, no one in this field was going to beat him. An announcer said there should be an asterisk next to this one if Tiger wins, there should be an asterisk next to it if anyone else does in my opinion.

[atb5079]

Here's hoping Day runs away with this thing this weekend and regardless of TW's decision to play, he wont have a chance to win and cause any further debacle.

[clutchshot]

He broke a very common rule (unknowingly or not doesn't matter happens all the time on tour).  He could have clarified prior to signing his card.  Once you sign an incorrect card you are DQ'd.  EOS

Not true at all, RULE 33-7 says this is not the case. You can't only apply the rules you want to hear...

[lostmyballs]

If Tiger wins after all this, it won't have an asterisk next to it, it'll have an exclamation point.

[Zeph]

All I can say is whoever wins this thing is not deserving... If we played this out 1000 more times, that ball never would hit that pin and bounce into the water again. The way Tiger is playing this year, no one in this field was going to beat him. An announcer said there should be an asterisk next to this one if Tiger wins, there should be an asterisk next to it if anyone else does in my opinion.

He's guaranteed to win just because he's won three times this year? That's just silly. Whatever Tiger do or do not do is his problem. Whoever wins the tournament deserve it, but if Tiger wins, there will always be talk about how he should've been DQ'ed. Anyone beating him this week may get an asterisk for beating Tiger, even with a doubtful ruling.

[Rick Martin]

Freddy says "This is an excellent decision" "Greatest rule of all time" "Saves player from themselves in case they make a mistake" "Fantastic" "Good for the game of golf" "Excellent job by the committee".....conversation w/ Steve Sands.

[eich41]

Originally Posted by clutchshot

Not true at all, RULE 33-7 says this is not the case. You can't only apply the rules you want to hear...

Wrong.

"This revision to Decision 33-7/4.5 addresses the situation where a player is not aware he has breached a Rule because of facts that he did not know and could not reasonably have discovered prior to returning his score card ."

You're saying he wasn't aware he broke the rule.  That's fine.  However what were the facts that he did not know and could not reasonably have discovered prior to signing his score card?

Please elaborate, I'm anxious to hear your explanation.

[Dave H]

Originally Posted by David in FL

That's exactly what would have happened, had he not signed his scorecard.  Now a different rule comes into play and MUST be applied.

I get that, I'm just not making myself clear . Lets assume Tiger doesn't realize he's making an improper drop. I'm assuming that must be the case, why would he intentionally make an improper drop? Now, since we all have the ability to go back, review it a million times and determine that yes, the drop was improper, now let's assess the penalty, adjust his score accordingly and move on. It's not like he's getting a freebie or anything. He's still getting the penalty stroke applied to his score.

Maybe what I'm really trying to say is that I don't like the DQ rule for improper score when we can all see before the end of the day that an error was made. I'm sure if TW realized it was an improper drop at the time he would have assessed the penalty on himself. Now, if shown the evidence and he still said, thanks but no I'm sticking with the score, yes a DQ.

And in all fairness, I am a TW fan but would argue this same point for any golfer in the same situation.

[turtleback]

Well, as it turns out I was completely wrong.  It is apparent that he was going under 26-1a and did not drop as close as possible.  Maybe I was just grasping at straws.

That said, I think the committee has really blown it by not imposing the DQ.  While they have some room to waive a DQ, I can't see how this qualifies.  So, much as I hate to say it, because I'm a huge Tiger fan. they should have DQed him.  This is not a case where a ball moved microscopically and the movement was only noticed by seeing it over and over on HD TV.

I hope Tiger looks at the overall situation and DQs himself or WDs or whatever the technical way for him to take himself out of the event.  But it is bad that the committee put him in the position of having to make that decision because they punted on doing the right thing.

OTOH, if Tiger does the right thing and WD/DQs himself I think he will gain a lot of respect.

[clutchshot]

He's guaranteed to win just because he's won three times this year? That's just silly. Whatever Tiger do or do not do is his problem. Whoever wins the tournament deserve it, but if Tiger wins, there will always be talk about how he should've been DQ'ed.

Yes, I was being silly, that statement is merely an opinion. Bottom line is people who know a lot more about the rules than we do chose not to disqualify him, he took a pretty crappy penalty, let the man play and if he can pull it off with all these penalty strokes, then it is well deserved.

[atb5079]

Here's another reason I give a big, whopping **** YOU to the committee:

from Bob Harig's article:

"After being prompted by a television viewer, the Rules Committee reviewed a video of the shot while he was playing the 18th hole," Riley said in the statement. "At that moment, based on the evidence, the committee determined he had complied with the rules.

Even they had to be prompted the review it. They reviewed it. Everything was fine and dandy. Then later they reviewed it again and uh oh, all this broke loose.

So I understand why you all hate TW and think he needs to WD, and part of me agrees. But this one is on the committee. Also, when TW dropped it, he had Freddie come over and check and even Freddie said it was fine. Nobody noticed anything or questioned anything until some fan brought it to the committee's attention. That is why this entire ordeal is a joke. The committee was aware enough to do their own job. What a joke.

[Zeph]

There is no doubt he could very reasonably have discovered the issue prior to returning his score card. He messed up in the heat of things and lost track of rules and/or where the ball went. You don't need to review camera footage closely to determine this.

[atb5079]

Originally Posted by Dave H

I get that, I'm just not making myself clear . Lets assume Tiger doesn't realize he's making an improper drop. I'm assuming that must be the case, why would he intentionally make an improper drop? Now, since we all have the ability to go back, review it a million times and determine that yes, the drop was improper, now let's assess the penalty, adjust his score accordingly and move on. It's not like he's getting a freebie or anything. He's still getting the penalty stroke applied to his score.

Maybe what I'm really trying to say is that I don't like the DQ rule for improper score when we can all see before the end of the day that an error was made. I'm sure if TW realized it was an improper drop at the time he would have assessed the penalty on himself. Now, if shown the evidence and he still said, thanks but no I'm sticking with the score, yes a DQ.

And in all fairness, I am a TW fan but would argue this same point for any golfer in the same situation.

Agreed.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eich41

Quote:

Originally Posted by clutchshot


Not true at all, RULE 33-7 says this is not the case. You can't only apply the rules you want to hear...

Wrong.

"This revision to Decision 33-7/4.5 addresses the situation where a player is not aware he has breached a Rule because of facts that he did not know and could not reasonably have discovered prior to returning his score card ."

You're saying he wasn't aware he broke the rule.  That's fine.  However what were the facts that he did not know and could not reasonably have discovered prior to signing his score card?

Please elaborate, I'm anxious to hear your explanation.

The committee had already ruled that he had proceeded correctly.   He then signed and returned his card.  The committee then reviewed the ruling and determined that he had dropped incorrectly after all.  The fact that he returned an incorrect score was the fault of the committee, not Tiger's.  Therefore the penalty is assessed, but the disqualification is waived because Tiger proceeded correctly before returning his card.

Quote:

A Committee would not be justified under Rule 33-7 in waiving or modifying the disqualification penalty prescribed in Rule 6-6d if the competitor's failure to include the penalty stroke(s) was a result of either ignorance of the Rules or of facts that the competitor could have reasonably discovered prior to signing and returning his score card.

Since the committee deterined that he had not incurred a penalty, Tiger went with their decision.  They reversed the decision on later review, but Tiger had no control over that.  To DQ a player after he has been told that he had done everything correctly would be a travesty.  The only reason we are drawing out this discussion is because too many Tiger haters have the peculiar idea that Tiger gets special treatment.

[Mordan]

The statement from the Competition Committee seems to imply that they're saying that this is an exceptional circumstance and thus they're waiving the penalty of disqualification.

They're basing this on the fact that they initially reviewed video of Tiger's drop, and apparently without talking to him decided his drop was ok. They then allowed him to sign his card without mentioning this to him. And because of this his violation of a pretty straight forward rule is ok, because the committee screwed up.

Setting aside Tiger's brain fart, this is a major mistake by the tournament committee. How did they review his drop without talking to him? And given that they didn't talk to him regarding the issue, what difference does it make to him signing an incorrect score card?

Such a disappointment that what could be a fantastic Masters is going to be soured by an incident that could have been avoidable on quite a few levels.