Fade vs Draw

[tkahlm]

I have been seeing some talk on the internet lately as to what you can get more distance out of a fade or a draw. I don't want the answer that they travel the same when everything is equal. I know that. I spoke to an instructor friend of mine and he thinks depending on the club it makes a difference. If you hit a driver with a positive AoA the fade should go farther and an iron shot a draw will go farther. I think the draw will go farther because you the delofting of the club due to the weight being forward. I think with a driver hit on the upswing it doesn't matter just changing the HSP will help dictate the ball flight.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by tkahlm

I have been seeing some talk on the internet lately as to what you can get more distance out of a fade or a draw. I don't want the answer that they travel the same when everything is equal. I know that. I spoke to an instructor friend of mine and he thinks depending on the club it makes a difference. If you hit a driver with a positive AoA the fade should go farther and an iron shot a draw will go farther. I think the draw will go farther because you the delofting of the club due to the weight being forward. I think with a driver hit on the upswing it doesn't matter just changing the HSP will help dictate the ball flight.

I can't see how a positive angle of attack with a driver will make a fade go further than a draw with the same positive angle of attack, assuming everything else is equal of course. I also don't believe a draw will go further with an iron. You can fade an iron just as easily as you can draw it and on both swings have a negative angle of attack with the handle forward.

Remember, you're just tilting the spin-axis. Unless the two swings creating the curve are different and thus providing different AOA, spins, etc., then a fade should in theory go the same distance as a draw with any club.

We have to say "when everything is equal" or else you'd be comparing apples to oranges aren't you? You could make an endless amount of arguments if everything isn't equal. It would be like saying a fade will go further with a swing speed of 112 vs a draw at swing speed of 90. Of course it will.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by tkahlm

I have been seeing some talk on the internet lately as to what you can get more distance out of a fade or a draw. I don't want the answer that they travel the same when everything is equal. I know that. I spoke to an instructor friend of mine and he thinks depending on the club it makes a difference. If you hit a driver with a positive AoA the fade should go farther and an iron shot a draw will go farther. I think the draw will go farther because you the delofting of the club due to the weight being forward. I think with a driver hit on the upswing it doesn't matter just changing the HSP will help dictate the ball flight.

Be careful what you say here.  This bold part implies that if you hit a fade, your weight is back.  That's ridiculous.

And Deron is right, you have to say "when all else is equal" because, otherwise, you have no basis for comparison.

[jamo]

It depends on a multitude of factors including what exactly you change to tilt the spin axis as well as what your normal impact conditions are.

[saevel25]

Its to complex to give a general answer. Technically if you use the same swing, just open or close the clubface for a draw or a fade, a fade should go a bit shorter just because it will travel higher and land softer, but its probably not that much difference. Bubba Watson hits a fade, and Dustin Johnson hits a draw.

[tkahlm]

Has anyone seen any information, maybe from trackman, that shows one flight typically goes farther than another. And what I meant by a fade going farther with the driver is with a HSP of 0 and a square face having the ball cut compared to hitting a draw with a driver.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by tkahlm

Has anyone seen any information, maybe from trackman, that shows one flight typically goes farther than another. And what I meant by a fade going farther with the driver is with a HSP of 0 and a square face having the ball cut compared to hitting a draw with a driver.

I don't think you can find data from Trackman to show that one flight goes further than another. Unless of course, one or more of the variables are different. Again, you're just tilting spin-axis, so assuming swing speed, smash factor, spin, etc., are all the same, the ball turning left-to-right isn't going to go further or shorter than a ball turning right-to-left.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

I don't think you can find data from Trackman to show that one flight goes further than another. Unless of course, one or more of the variables are different. Again, you're just tilting spin-axis, so assuming swing speed, smash factor, spin, etc., are all the same, the ball turning left-to-right isn't going to go further or shorter than a ball turning right-to-left.

Right, as has been said numerous times on here.  Another way to think of it is to realize that the ball has no idea if it's being hit by a right handed or left handed swing.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Right, as has been said numerous times on here.  Another way to think of it is to realize that the ball has no idea if it's being hit by a right handed or left handed swing.

Exactly. It doesn't make sense to say that one flight goes further than the other. Assuming for a second that a fade goes further (for a right handed player) with an positive angle of attack, then guys like Phil Mickelson would be at a disadvantage hitting a fade since their fade curves to the left and other players curves to the right.

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Its to complex to give a general answer. Technically if you use the same swing, just open or close the clubface for a draw or a fade, a fade should go a bit shorter just because it will travel higher and land softer, but its probably not that much difference. Bubba Watson hits a fade, and Dustin Johnson hits a draw.

this actually makes sense, even in context with what the other posters are trying to say - then it just depends on which side of the optimal loft angle the particular club lives on......

[saevel25]

Well its really to complex

For example, i play a 910D2 Driver, i have it set at 8.75 degrees, that gained me some distance because i cut the spin rate on the golf ball.

But from swing to swing, if you look at trackman, your spin rate and launch angles fluctuate greatly, i've had swings that were 3000 rpm, and 5000 rpm. For all the precision the club makers say, and getting fitted, you can only get so close, before its drowned out because of error in the swing.

Its like saying, ok mill this corner to 1/1000th of an inch. you can only draw a line to 1/10th of an inch.

For me, as long as i get a driver were even if i mis hit i am not getting punished to bad, i am fine. I am not looking to squeeze out ever yard i can, cause i know i am going to be hitting drives that fluctuate greatly anyways.

Even with the fade versus draw. If you have an inside out swing path, lets say +3 degrees to the right. difference between a push and a fade could be 2-3 degrees in clubface orientation, i am not sure if that adds much to the loft of the driver anyways. I doubt it would be noticable. So, really your not looking at anything earth shattering.

[jclark]

I keep it simple in my little brain that if I hit a draw, I close my club face thus delofting it making it a lower more penetrating ball flight with more roll out (compared to a fade) and a fade I open the face thus adding loft causing a high flight with less rollout. My view...

[ossojones]

Originally Posted by jclark

I keep it simple in my little brain that if I hit a draw, I close my club face thus delofting it making it a lower more penetrating ball flight with more roll out (compared to a fade) and a fade I open the face thus adding loft causing a high flight with less rollout. My view...

Everything you say there seems backwards to me.  To hit a draw you leave the face open, or right of the target.  To hit a fade you close the face left of the target.  Closing the face adds more loft and opening delofts.  My opinion on the OPs question is fades should go farther due to more roll out.  My fades go farther in real life.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by jclark

I keep it simple in my little brain that if I hit a draw, I close my club face thus delofting it making it a lower more penetrating ball flight with more roll out (compared to a fade) and a fade I open the face thus adding loft causing a high flight with less rollout. My view...

Originally Posted by ossojones

Everything you say there seems backwards to me.  To hit a draw you leave the face open, or right of the target.  To hit a fade you close the face left of the target.  Closing the face adds more loft and opening delofts.  My opinion on the OPs question is fades should go farther due to more roll out.  My fades go farther in real life.

Neither of you are necessarily wrong, just incomplete.  (Except the sentence I bolded for you, that is definitely wrong)  jclark is probably referring to having his clubface closed in relation to his swing path but not his target, and so long both are to the right of the target, then he can hit a push draw.  You don't mention swing path either, but are obviously saying the same thing as him.  Face open to target, path right of face, equals push draw.

Regarding the bold, however, you got that backward.  Just think about the extremes.  If you open the club as far as your hards can turn, the club is pointing at the sky, so now your 11* driver is now a 90* sand wedge (with about 75* of bounce - good luck hitting that one of a tight lie ;)), and closed as far as humanly possible points that face at the ground.

[jclark]

In my post I was talking about my club face relative to the swing path.

[tkahlm]

Originally Posted by ossojones

Everything you say there seems backwards to me.  To hit a draw you leave the face open, or right of the target.  To hit a fade you close the face left of the target.  Closing the face adds more loft and opening delofts.  My opinion on the OPs question is fades should go farther due to more roll out.  My fades go farther in real life.

Id agree with no lateral movement a fade should go farther but most players hit a draw with hips that are sliding towards the target. When the hips move towards the target in the swing the hands lead more delofting the club.

[tkahlm]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

I don't think you can find data from Trackman to show that one flight goes further than another. Unless of course, one or more of the variables are different. Again, you're just tilting spin-axis, so assuming swing speed, smash factor, spin, etc., are all the same, the ball turning left-to-right isn't going to go further or shorter than a ball turning right-to-left.

Many teachers do their own research with trackman. I have heard many top instructors talk about starting direction of slicers being 15% to the right of the target and lower, those numbers where found from the use of a trackman. I understand spin axis tilt as well I was trying to find out if anyone has experience on the spin loft being more on a draw or a fade thus lower the smash factor.

[jclark]

My fade has less smash factor than a draw.