Practice Swing Vs. Real Swing - How Can One Make These THE SAME

[downbylaw11]

11 hours ago, Rykymus said:

Hit a large bucket this morning at the range. (Off the grass) I've only been about 50% constant getting good strikes, and I've always been more of a picker, never taking more than a trim off the grass. When I miss, it's usually thin, topping the ball, or hitting slightly below its equator.

I tried the trick of focusing on a spot 1 inch ahead of the ball, instead of on the ball itself, and I immediately went to hitting solid, well-controlled, average distance shots (with about 80% power) at least 90% of the time, and with every club in my bag! I'm here to tell you, that trick really works!

 

i believe it. it's not really a trick as much as it's probably just changing where your swing bottoms out, which is now ahead of the ball slightly as opposed to really not at all I guess.   a friend of mine who was definitely a hacker used to really try to lift the ball up when he swung.  I usually don't give unsolicited advice on the golf course, but he brought the topic up, and i basically explained to him that to get the golf ball up, you want to hit down on it, and that your divot is supposed to be after the ball, not before it, (you'd be amazed at how many bad golfers don't realize this, or that with a bunker shot, youre not hitting the ball at all and are simply using the sand to propel it out of the bunker).  anyways, I went golfing with this guy about a month ago for the first time in probably a year, and he's probably only golfed a handful of times since then, and doesnt go to the range, but he made a conscious effort to try to hit more down on the ball, and let me tell you, I was amazed at how well he was striking his irons.  straight, and crisp, like i'd never seen him hit before. he used to hit everything super thin and low, but it was like night and day. and that was simply from understanding the problem and making a conscious attempt at adjustment.  he didn't need to spend weeks on the range grooving it, but just needed to be enlightened to what causes the ball to go up lol

[iacas]

9 hours ago, downbylaw11 said:

a mental issue is causing a breakdown of mechanics.  whether it be as simple as lack of focus, or slightly more complicated, it's still a mental issue that is causing the other issue.

I disagree.

When a person is first learning to play guitar, or even a new song on a guitar at which they're already semi-proficient, they can often do it if they do it slowly, or just do a small piece of it, or whatever. They can't play the full song, at full speed, until they've practiced it enough to ingrain it.

It's not a "mental" issue that holds them back, it's a physical one. They haven't trained themselves yet to operate in the time and space required to play the song. They don't know, they haven't learned/trained how to move their fingers a certain way at a certain pace.

Now, if the guitarist can play the song perfectly alone, but freezes in front of an audience, then that's a mental thing.

You're comparing playing air guitar to playing the real thing. They're not the same thing, and your barrier is not mental. You've literally not trained your body to make a swing at a golf ball at full speed. Your body reverts to what it knows, because it hasn't been trained in the proper mechanics. You cannot, with a ball on the ground and your intent to hit it, move mechanically correctly because you've not trained your body to move mechanically, correctly.

I understand that in your mind, you think that "my practice swing is perfect, and it's just a mental block that is stopping me from making THAT swing when the ball is there and I want to hit it" but that's not how the body works. On occasion, yes, just like the guitarist that freezes when there's an audience. But that's unlikely what's going on here. Your body is doing what it's been trained to do at that speed and in that situation.

I also second @DaveP043's thoughts earlier: your practice swings probably have flaws in them too, but you likely see a smoother swing where the results don't matter. That's why you work on… mechanics. You don't just go off and "think on it" for awhile or something. You work on the mechanics. You find something simple. You work on it slowly. You work on something specific. You work in short sessions and on a shorter swing. You have success doing those things.

Over time, you ramp up the speed. You ramp up the speed while continuing to have success. Eventually it's part of your actual swing.

 

Almost everyone's practice swing is better than their real swing. The ones whose practice swing is "worse"? The better players. The ones who, like Tiger a few years ago with his big over-the-top swing low and left practice swings, were exaggerating a practice move to get a feel for what their real swing had to be a teeny bit more like.

Your golf swing has some poor mechanics. The solution is not to go off and think about it, and to work on your mental game… the solution is to improve those mechanics. Because right now, your body cannot reproduce them with a ball on the ground.

[downbylaw11]

at least you went in depth to try to prove your point.  but as a guy who has played guitar on the daily for over 20 years, not sure I dig the analogy.  

[Grizvok]

5 minutes ago, downbylaw11 said:

at least you went in depth to try to prove your point.  but as a guy who has played guitar on the daily for over 20 years, not sure I dig the analogy.  

His point was more than made.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, downbylaw11 said:

at least you went in depth to try to prove your point.  but as a guy who has played guitar on the daily for over 20 years, not sure I dig the analogy.  

Someone who sucks at playing an actual guitar but plays a mean air guitar doesn't have to work on their "mental game."

[Jack Watson]

@iacas

That was brilliant.  As someone with less than zero music knowledge who is wanting to learn to play an instrument the value of proper practice and KNOWING WHAT ONE IS DOING during that practice AND the value of good instruction to get off on the right foot from the beginning is invaluable.  No way am I gonna try self instruction.

In golf I did not choose that path.  I suffered for too long and limited my ceiling by the 'figure it out myself' attitude. 

 

[downbylaw11]

to be fair, many self taught musicians go on to become some of the most iconic musicians in music history.

 

as far as having a 'figure it out myself' attitude, thats only partly true.  i've tinkered with the idea of getting a lesson here and there, but honestly I enjoy the journey of mostly being self taught, but then again, I wouldn't consider myself 'self taught' but rather a user of resources available to me that allows me to gain insight into the swing, and myself.   i have multiple teachers, just not a lot of feedback!

 

as for music, I took lessons for about 4 years before my parents realized they were just paying a guy a bunch of money to teach me the latest stp songs and probably realized I could do that much on my own.  they were right.  lessons allowed me to develop my ear to pick up notes and chords, but I didn't actually develop a ton of technique during that time.  I refused to use my pinky finger to play solos because it was so underdeveloped.  It wasn't until 2 years ago that I decided to try and learn a few songs that were insanely out of my skill level, but I wanted to learn.  I developed the technique and speed while playing obsessively every day, and although I was a pretty good guitar player for a lot of years, I improved sooooooo much in what was a relatively short span because I was inspired to do something difficult, but there are certain mental aspects of it that are difficult to explain

 

anyways, why am i talking about this? i dunno

your explanation of mechanics while hitting a real ball is definitely not wrong, but of course that is making the assumption that it's not any sort of mental problem.  any maybe it's not.  but to flat out say it's not a mental issue, might be jumping the gun a little.  anyways, im gonna take a break from this thread as clearly I've been acting in a way that is unbecoming of a gentleman and for that I apologize and will try to either bite my tongue if I disagree with you, or try to be more open minded. 

[downbylaw11]

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

@iacas

That was brilliant.  As someone with less than zero music knowledge who is wanting to learn to play an instrument the value of proper practice and KNOWING WHAT ONE IS DOING during that practice AND the value of good instruction to get off on the right foot from the beginning is invaluable.  No way am I gonna try self instruction.

In golf I did not choose that path.  I suffered for too long and limited my ceiling by the 'figure it out myself' attitude. 

one quick thing about learning an instrument, if youre less than 100% committed to doing it, save your money.  i work with a guy who out of the blue said he was bidding on some cheap guitar. i asked why, and he said it was a good deal and he wanted to learn.  but frankly, the guy was married, and spent all of his free time as a serious cyclist. I told him straight up, as much as it would be cool for you to learn guitar, you realize that thing is going to be collecting dust in 2 weeks right? he basically acknowledged it would, but he still bought it. played it for 2 days, and hasn't touched it in a year.  If you REALLY wanted to learn an instrument, you probably would have done it by now, but if youre truly, honestly, want to learn, be prepared to put in the time to really get anything out of it.

[gregsandiego]

18 minutes ago, downbylaw11 said:

one quick thing about learning an instrument, if youre less than 100% committed to doing it, save your money.  i work with a guy who out of the blue said he was bidding on some cheap guitar. i asked why, and he said it was a good deal and he wanted to learn.  but frankly, the guy was married, and spent all of his free time as a serious cyclist. I told him straight up, as much as it would be cool for you to learn guitar, you realize that thing is going to be collecting dust in 2 weeks right? he basically acknowledged it would, but he still bought it. played it for 2 days, and hasn't touched it in a year.  If you REALLY wanted to learn an instrument, you probably would have done it by now, but if youre truly, honestly, want to learn, be prepared to put in the time to really get anything out of it.

Sorry if this is topic. Just curious why you don't capitalize the 1st word in the sentence. 

[downbylaw11]

 I don't typically use correct punctuation when typing in an informal setting such as an internet forum.  I guess you could say it's a bad habit, as often I'll capitalize words mid sentence, but generally in a forum I don't care if shit looks sloppy.  Obviously if I feel that it's important, I will make sure all my t's are crossed and my i'sare dotted.  If this is a forum where people would prefer me to use capitals, I will. 

[boogielicious]

11 hours ago, downbylaw11 said:

at least you went in depth to try to prove your point.  but as a guy who has played guitar on the daily for over 20 years, not sure I dig the analogy.  

I've been playing guitar for 49 years, since I was 8. The analogy is fine. You don't learn technique by blasting through it. That will cause frustration and poor technique. The approach above to learning is far more effective for both guitar and golf.

[yanni]

I think there is a difference between playing the guitar & tennis and golf (which I all do). 

1) Guitar. Everybody knows it will takes years to play Hendrix songs (you can substitute this with your favourite guitar hero). Everybody knows they will never play as good as Hendrix (again could be anybody)

2) You practise serves, forehand etc. very slow and relaxed. In the actual tournament nobody does everything with 100% power. Nobody expects to play like Becker (again substitute). Nobody expects to have his technique or power.

3) In golf everybody seems to think after a few lessons you will swing like Tiger and have a similar power. Of course you swing with 100% power to get to the distance Tiger has which makes everything just worse. Of course you somehow know that Tiger is better. But you think if you just copy his swing you will be as good as him (especially if you are not 16 but 40 years old)

At least this is how I think about golf. But I try to change my mind ;)

 

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by yanni

[alfriday]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/12/how-to-learn-new-skills-twice-as-fast/?utm_term=.286eb9e9fae0

 

 

[gregsandiego]

12 hours ago, alfriday said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/12/how-to-learn-new-skills-twice-as-fast/?utm_term=.286eb9e9fae0

 

 

Interesting study (Learning motor skills faster), though I wish it was more specific to golf.

The closest they come is this quote:

 "Practicing your baseball swing? Change the size and weight of your bat". 

I'm not sure I believe it. I think the opposite is true for golf.In other words master the 7 iron perfectly and then worry about the other clubs, would probably be more effective then rifling through every club in the bag at the range. I'd be interested in hearing what our local experts think on this...

 

 

[yanni]

Interesting. I can think of some examples.

1) Swing very fast or slow (also with the driver)
2) Practise on different surfaces like grass, matts etc.
3) use very heavy clubs or light kid clubs
4) Do full or half backswings
5) Play balls in a row very fast or slow
6) Switch the clubs on every swing (actually this is what you do on the court)
7) Play the ball to the left, middle, right
8) Pitch short and long
9) Practise short and long puts

I can image this will help more than playing 50 balls with an iron 7 in a row.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, gregsandiego said:

Interesting study (Learning motor skills faster), though I wish it was more specific to golf.

The closest they come is this quote:

 "Practicing your baseball swing? Change the size and weight of your bat". 

I'm not sure I believe it. I think the opposite is true for golf.In other words master the 7 iron perfectly and then worry about the other clubs, would probably be more effective then rifling through every club in the bag at the range. I'd be interested in hearing what our local experts think on this...

Off the top of my head…

• Change clubs.
• Hit different sized draws/hooks (or whatever you're practicing), different heights.
• Different length backswings at different speeds.

5 hours ago, yanni said:

1) Swing very fast or slow (also with the driver)
2) Practise on different surfaces like grass, mats etc.

Those are fine.

5 hours ago, yanni said:

3) use very heavy clubs or light kid clubs

That one, don't do that. Very heavy/very light clubs can have negative effects. Weight should only vary by about 11-14% max.

5 hours ago, yanni said:

4) Do full or half backswings
5) Play balls in a row very fast or slow
6) Switch the clubs on every swing (actually this is what you do on the court)
7) Play the ball to the left, middle, right
8) Pitch short and long
9) Practise short and long puts

I can image this will help more than playing 50 balls with an iron 7 in a row.

Those are okay.

[gregsandiego]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Off the top of my head…

• Change clubs.
• Hit different sized draws/hooks (or whatever you're practicing), different heights.
• Different length backswings at different speeds.

Those are fine.

That one, don't do that. Very heavy/very light clubs can have negative effects. Weight should only vary by about 11-14% max.

Those are okay.

Let's go back to switching clubs.

What's better for an  hour at the range?

100 balls with 7 iron

100 balls with 4 through P

 

[freshmanUTA]

I haven't read every post in this thread, so it has probably been said before: Your practice swing probably has a bunch of small flaws: Face angles, path issues, etc. But you don't have a ball or anything to really receive results from to tell you what is wrong.