How to Effectively Create Lag on the Downswing

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by cipher

Yes left is bad, and right is good.

Correct, A6-7 is much better on the right

[bplewis24]

Can anybody explain to me why in the Hunter video, the takeaway and position at the top is so different?  Is that necessary to illustrate the good/bad way of doing it?

In other words, is his takeaway pretty bad as well, or can that work fine if his downswing was similar to the swing on the right?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by cipher

Yes left is pretty bad, and right is very good.

Originally Posted by mvmac

Correct

All bad?  I got the impression that it's really only bad from A5.1 and on.  When he freezes the videos at A5, they are pretty close.  The difference is that "left" is still increasing lag, while "right" is beginning to flip.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Can anybody explain to me why in the Hunter video, the takeaway and position at the top is so different?  Is that necessary to illustrate the good/bad way of doing it?

In other words, is his takeaway pretty bad as well, or can that work fine if his downswing was similar to the swing on the right?

Yeah, I have the same question because I got the impression that they are both fine up to A5 ... however, "left" starts being bad at A5.1 or so.  But perhaps I am wrong and he's doing other bad things that are leading up to this?

[cipher]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

All bad?  I got the impression that it's really only bad from A5.1 and on.  When he freezes the videos at A5, they are pretty close.  The difference is that "left" is still increasing lag, while "right" is beginning to flip.

Yeah, I have the same question because I got the impression that they are both fine up to A5 ... however, "left" starts being bad at A5.1 or so.  But perhaps I am wrong and he's doing other bad things that are leading up to this?

I said "pretty" bad not "all" bad.

edit:

bplewis24:

Maybe one of the Evo boys can explain the more vertical shaft at the top on the right, but my guess is it may be a feel thing for Hunter, or helps him initiate the downswing better without unhinging the wrists early like he does on the left.  I am sure Erik would say "don't worry about it, it is something for his swing".  Whatever is getting him there though is pretty amazing though from A6-A7.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

All bad?  I got the impression that it's really only bad from A5.1 and on.  When he freezes the videos at A5, they are pretty close.  The difference is that "left" is still increasing lag, while "right" is beginning to flip.

Yeah, I have the same question because I got the impression that they are both fine up to A5 ... however, "left" starts being bad at A5.1 or so.  But perhaps I am wrong and he's doing other bad things that are leading up to this?

I figured the comment Cipher made referred to A6-7, yes the "after" swing Hunter made was much better.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Can anybody explain to me why in the Hunter video, the takeaway and position at the top is so different?  Is that necessary to illustrate the good/bad way of doing it?

In other words, is his takeaway pretty bad as well, or can that work fine if his downswing was similar to the swing on the right?

Few things took place, little off topic to go over Hunter's lesson but I'll explain a little since it kinda relates to the topic of the thread.  Notice the loading of his wrist angles, the sequencing is off, the angle between the club shaft and the right shoulder is very narrow on the "bad" swing.  Compensation then is to kick out the wrist angles too early.

[Eddie Weatherby]

Holding the right shoulder in external rotation on the way down as opposed to chopping over the top helps as does having sufficient strength to keep it in the slot.  Strong wrists help to counteract centripital forces of the swing thereby allowing the club to lag.  Strong wrists can delay the release and maximize energy transfer, which is one of the reasons hockey players all hit the snot out of the ball.

Tutelman explained the Physics and Miyahira showed the high speed videos on lag.  Worth a google search.

[iacas]

I disagree with most of that. Not a fan of an externally rotated trail shoulder very much (some players can make it work, but as a general rule) - and external rotation tends to lead to a trail shoulder that works out and over. Additionally, you don't need "strong wrists" at all to maintain lag or "counteract centripetal forces." I can deliver a lagging clubhead with very soft wrists (and LPGA players likely don't have stronger wrists than a lot of players).

As I said to you in the other thread, Eddie, welcome, but please come with more than just statements passed off as fact with no supporting evidence. It's far more likely that hockey players are likely good at playing golf because the skillset is somewhat similar (like baseball players) - not because they have "strong wrists."

[Pablo68]

Great breakdown guys.

Is the bad lag a product of not really shifting the weight well (referring to video #1 in the original post)? Does the lead shoulder rise up because of that poor weight shift and the left leg straightening? Am I overanalyzing it and should just focus on trailing elbow?

I'm still fighting this issue (clubhead speed throwaway or possibly mild flip) and this seems like some great stuff to work on.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

Great breakdown guys.

Is the bad lag a product of not really shifting the weight well (referring to video #1 in the original post)? Does the lead shoulder rise up because of that poor weight shift and the left leg straightening? Am I overanalyzing it and should just focus on trailing elbow?

I'm still fighting this issue (clubhead speed throwaway or possibly mild flip) and this seems like some great stuff to work on.

Yeah I think it's good to focus on weight forward and getting the handle down.  "Bad" lag imo more of a product of misunderstanding how to do it, trying to force the lag.

[JonMA1]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Yeah I think it's good to focus on weight forward and getting the handle down.  "Bad" lag imo more of a product of misunderstanding how to do it, trying to force the lag.

It might be hard to answer this question without video (all I have is a standard def, standard speed camera). With my irons, when I remember to apply downward pressure on my front foot on the downswing (weight forward), concentrate on the flat left wrist and feel like my hands are forward of the ball at impact I get pretty consistent contact and ball flight (albeit high). Even if the distance is down a bit, should I just continue to work on accuracy with this swing instead worrying if I'm getting the lag needed for more distance?

I do this all the time and it's stupid. I start to develop a decent swing, then start worrying about distance and end up bastardizing what was "working".

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by JonMA1

It might be hard to answer this question without video (all I have is a standard def, standard speed camera). With my irons, when I remember to apply downward pressure on my front foot on the downswing (weight forward), concentrate on the flat left wrist and feel like my hands are forward of the ball at impact I get pretty consistent contact and ball flight (albeit high). Even if the distance is down a bit, should I just continue to work on accuracy with this swing instead worrying if I'm getting the lag needed for more distance?

I do this all the time and it's stupid. I start to develop a decent swing, then start worrying about distance and end up bastardizing what was "working".

I think as you keep working on it and refining the motion, you'll see an increase in distance.  Also, seen some players that try to "hold" the wrist angles for better impact, end of hitting it shorter, so maybe that's what is going on.  Remember we don't work on a Flat Left Wrist by feeling a flat left wrist, more of a reaction to Key #2 and good sequencing with the arms.

[JonMA1]

Originally Posted by mvmac

I think as you keep working on it and refining the motion, you'll see an increase in distance.  Also, seen some players that try to "hold" the wrist angles for better impact, end of hitting it shorter, so maybe that's what is going on.  Remember we don't work on a Flat Left Wrist by feeling a flat left wrist, more of a reaction to Key #2 and good sequencing with the arms.

You're right about that. I am trying to hold the flat wrist too long in my follow through to avoid any chance of flipping. My hands end up high and in front and not much around to my left - if that makes sense. I'll work on the timing and follow-through. Thanks.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Is left "bad" and right "good", or are they both equally effective but with different shape results?

Left looks like a flip to me, but I don't know  from good chocolate!

Yeah, I wish I flipped it that bad.

I wish I did a lot of things that badly.  That position looks awesome!

[cipher]

Originally Posted by JonMA1

You're right about that. I am trying to hold the flat wrist too long in my follow through to avoid any chance of flipping. My hands end up high and in front and not much around to my left - if that makes sense. I'll work on the timing and follow-through. Thanks.

It could also be that your arms are even slowing down.  I did that when I started working on my swing without even knowing it.  If you feel like you are consciously trying to hold wrist angles it might also slow down your arms in the effort to keep the angle.  There should not be much in the way of timing.  You can't time the release as far as I know.  If you get the arms down fast enough and your wrist angles are good at the top, it should just unhinge as you come down and meet up at impact for you.  It is almost as if there is no conscious effort to make the club head hit the ball.  You pull the handle down, get the arms moving fast and the rest happens if the keys are in place.

Originally Posted by mvmac

I think as you keep working on it and refining the motion, you'll see an increase in distance.

Mike is right, for me it has been about 30 yards with my driver, about 15 or so yards on my irons, and I have a long way to go.

[JonMA1]

Originally Posted by cipher

It could also be that your arms are even slowing down.  I did that when I started working on my swing without even knowing it.  If you feel like you are consciously trying to hold wrist angles it might also slow down your arms in the effort to keep the angle.  There should not be much in the way of timing.  You can't time the release as far as I know.  If you get the arms down fast enough and your wrist angles are good at the top, it should just unhinge as you come down and meet up at impact for you.  It is almost as if there is no conscious effort to make the club head hit the ball.  You pull the handle down, get the arms moving fast and the rest happens if the keys are in place.

Mike is right, for me it has been about 30 yards with my driver, about 15 or so yards on my irons, and I have a long way to go.

I apologize for not acknowledging your post until now. As always, suggestions and feedback from others are always appreciated.

I might be slowing down - anticipating contact as well as concentrating on keeping my wrist flat as you suggested. I hope to get to the point where "the ball gets in the way of my swing" as they say. The swings where I control my downswing speed usually result in more distance. Might be a psychological thing where the speed increases when it matters (at impact) and my followthrough is un-interupted. Similar to what you said, everything just works the way it's supposed to. This usually happens on my hybrid and fairway clubs.

I recently recorded my swing and found that when I'm going through my pre-swing routine, everything looks pretty good - my head is relatively still, good extension on the backswing, hips forward and weight downward to my left leg on the downswing, etc. But when I swing, there's something very wrong with the weight shift and balance at finish. I'd love to have David Feherty describe it.

By the way, I think I'll always be impressed when a single digit player states that they have a long way to go. Now that's a work ethic.

[Jim1]

I don't play any more because of my back. However, back when I played, I learned that if I used my stomach muscles to turn my shoulders backward in an effort to cause my chest to face something behind me WHILE AT THE SAME TIME firing my hips at the target in the forward swing, the ball went much farther. I picked up 50 yards on my drives one summer doing that. As far as I know, that (the shoulders and hips moving in opposite directions in the forward swing) is the primary way to increase distance. A secondary way is to hold the hands (handle of the club) away from the body during the swing. The remax long drive competitors do those two things very well. Jeff Sluman picked up about 50 yards on his drives one summer back in the 80s. I think that he did the same thing I did.

Another way of thinking about it is to try to make your right shoulder blade touch the left side of your butt, not just in the backswing, but even more so in the forward swing.

Careful. This can put a lot of stress on the lower spine.

[JetFan1983]

Is the proper lowering of the arms a significant contributor to maintaining one's inclination to the ground on the downswing through impact? To me, it feels (key word here) like I have the proper amount of spinal flexion deeper into my downswing the better the arms come down, as opposed to say, keeping my arms completely loaded, in which case, the only way I can get to the ball is to extend my spine excessively and tip my head back.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Is the proper lowering of the arms a significant contributor to maintaining one's inclination to the ground on the downswing through impact? To me, it feels (key word here) like I have the proper amount of spinal flexion deeper into my downswing the better the arms come down, as opposed to say, keeping my arms completely loaded, in which case, the only way I can get to the ball is to extend my spine excessively and tip my head back.

Actually, I guess the video addresses this pretty clearly. Carry on.