Is Vijay a Jerk or "Justified": Files Suit Against PGA Tour

[minitour]

1) He used something on a banned list.  Whether it's a PED or not, it was banned.  If they said "no tobacco", and he smoked or "dipped" (what a stupid word for the act), it would still be against the rule.

2) They didn't suspend him and were actively investigating.  He was even able to play in the Masters.

3) He's suing them because of what they did.

....because they investigated.

...and didn't suspend him.

This from a guy who's got a reputation as a cheater?  Sorry, but I can't take his side.

[helms20]

I would have to disagree.  I am not saying Vijay is a saint, but the statement originally said it may or may not have contained IGF-1 .  If you are going to do anything publically at least make sure it contains the substance in which you are trying to make a point on.  The Tour should have thought that through and I believe the Vijay will probably win the suit.

[atb5079]

What a schmuck. The tour looks dumb/bad for the entire situatuon, but it still doesnt change the fact that VJ took a substance that was on the banned list at the time. Its not nuclear physics folks. Its black and white. He took a banned substance. VJ is a jackass.

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by helms20

I would have to disagree.  I am not saying Vijay is a saint, but the statement originally said it may or may not have contained IGF-1.  If you are going to do anything publically at least make sure it contains the substance in which you are trying to make a point on.  The Tour should have thought that through and I believe the Vijay will probably win the suit.

This was my point as well.  If you're going to mess with peoples lives and income at least know what's in the stuff you're banning.  PED's have been grossly over hyped in professional sports, yes they exist but of the ones that really work 95% are steroids and GH, the rest offer minimal or very specialized effects and/or require close interaction with a doctor or trained professional to administer properly.

I was a certified personal trainer and have followed the supplements industry for the last 20 years, how is it that I knew deer antler spray was as much a PED as spinach is and the PGA Tour didn't?  It appears obvious that professional sports organizations or even WADA don't actually test or research what they add to the ban list.

As I said in the other thread, until the PGA Tour and other professional sports organizations require random blood testing, their PED's policy is a joke and an obvious indication they aren't that concerned about eliminating PEDS from their sport.

[14ledo81]

Originally Posted by WUTiger

Vijay and Tiger both got in trouble for being conversational guys and talking to people.

In his initial comment to the press on the deer stuff, Vijay indicated he was worried and bothered by the "deer antler" thing. And, the evidence came to light from his own words, not the testing specified in PGA substance-control policies.

Tiger did not get into trouble on the drop at No. 15 Augusta when the shot was reviewed during the round. The penalty arose after he told a reporter that that evening that he "may have moved back a yard or two" from the original spot.

In the past, baseball and football players have drawn criticism because they wouldn't talk to the press. In today's kingdom of golf, dodging the press might gain traction as an effective risk-management tool.

So, I think Vijay was justified in the suit. The PGA needs to adhere to its policies, which would be easier to do if they were rewritten for clarity.

Using this line of thought:  If I admitted to robbing a bank, but the police did not actually catch me in the act they could not prosecute me.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by helms20

I would have to disagree.  I am not saying Vijay is a saint, but the statement originally said it may or may not have contained IGF-1.  If you are going to do anything publically at least make sure it contains the substance in which you are trying to make a point on.  The Tour should have thought that through and I believe the Vijay will probably win the suit.

You're missing the point, I think.

It doesn't matter if what he actually took had a lot, a little, or no IGF-1 at all in it.

The fact is, it's advertised as having IGF-1 in it, the manufacturer says it's in it, and Vijay bought it and admitted to using it.

It's no different than someone buying fake drugs from an undercover cop.  You go to jail regardless of the contents of the package if you were intentionally buying what you thought were drugs.

[dave67az]

And lets not forget that ADMISSIONS of misconduct are just as punishable under the PGA Tour Anti Doping Program as actual misconduct.  Even if you were lying about it.  So what was actually in the spray or whether it actually gave an advantage is irrelevant.

[helms20]

Originally Posted by dave67az

You're missing the point, I think.

It doesn't matter if what he actually took had a lot, a little, or no IGF-1 at all in it.

The fact is, it's advertised as having IGF-1 in it, the manufacturer says it's in it, and Vijay bought it and admitted to using it.

It's no different than someone buying fake drugs from an undercover cop.  You go to jail regardless of the contents of the package if you were intentionally buying what you thought were drugs.

Well if that is the case then why remove it from the banned substance list at all?

WADA is the organization that banned deer antler spray, but has since decided it is ok as it doesn't really contain enough IGF-1 to aid in performance.  I understand your point that if he knew it was banned then he shouldn't have taken it, but in the statements from Singh he stated he didn't know and was shocked.  Whether he is lying or not, which I believe he is, the tour should have done it's investigation prior to causing a media uproar about it.  Most everything else is kept quiet on the tour why all of a sudden does this seem to make national headlines for months?  TO ME it just seems that the tour could have repeated history and not commented on the situation until their investigation was resolved.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by helms20

Well if that is the case then why remove it from the banned substance list at all?

WADA is the organization that banned deer antler spray, but has since decided it is ok as it doesn't really contain enough IGF-1 to aid in performance.  I understand your point that if he knew it was banned then he shouldn't have taken it, but in the statements from Singh he stated he didn't know and was shocked.  Whether he is lying or not, which I believe he is, the tour should have done it's investigation prior to causing a media uproar about it.  Most everything else is kept quiet on the tour why all of a sudden does this seem to make national headlines for months?  TO ME it just seems that the tour could have repeated history and not commented on the situation until their investigation was resolved.

You're implying that the media uproar was because of something the PGA Tour has done or said.  I challenge you to find any statements that the PGA Tour has made that support this statement.

I think you'll find the media uproar was in reaction to Vijay's own admission that he used a banned substance.

And they didn't comment on his guilt or innocence until after the investigation was done.

Other than the comments by some people on this forum who think the PGA Tour should be conducting their own research testing on all products on the banned product list (something that no other professional sport does, I might add) I have yet to hear exactly what the PGA Tour has done that was out of line.

Hell, they didn't even announce Vijay had been suspended because Vijay wanted to appeal the decision.  This is MORE than any other professional sport would do to protect the player.  Normally punishments are announced BEFORE the appeal, are they not?

[dave67az]

And he was buying exactly what he was told not to use according to the PGA Tour warning last summer:  deer antler spray.

This is directly from the SWATS website:

The product has been shown to contain

Collagen – a major structural protein
Amino Acids – eight of the essential and fifteen non-essential
Insulin-like Growth Factor (IGF-1) – a precursor for the production of growth hormone (HGH)
Epidermal Growth Factor (EGF) – growth factors that aid development of cartilage cells
Chondroitin Sulphate –a carbohydrate that helps protect and rebuild cartilage
Erythropoietin – a hormone product by the kidney for red blood cell production
Glycosphingolipids – compounds involved with growth of cells with memory and learning
Prostoglandins – hormone like substance with anti-inflammatory effects
Phospholipids – the major structural lipid of most cell membranes
Monoamine-oxidase inhibitors – an enzyme that inhibits the oxidation of neurotrasmitters to promote a feeling of well-being.

( https://www.swatsorders.com/singleproduct.asp?productID=3)

And they actually warned everyone about it in 2011, my bad...not 2012 as I thought.

http://www.thepostgame.com/features/201108/pga-tour-cracks-down-deer-antler-spray

[boogielicious]

A spectator at the Players was wearing antlers in the gallery at the first first tee when Vijay teed off.

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

A spectator at the Players was wearing antlers in the gallery at the first first tee when Vijay teed off.

Supposedly on the 18th, someone yelled to Vijay that he sucks and he alledgedly yelled back to the guy, "come over here and say that". LOL  Apparently Vijay thinks he's a big tough guy now.

[dave67az]

How does his agent or PR guy not realize that this lawsuit is going to damage his reputation more than any actions by the PGA Tour ever would??!!!

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by dave67az

How does his agent or PR guy not realize that this lawsuit is going to damage his reputation more than any actions by the PGA Tour ever would??!!!

I'm almost certain the attorneys riled up Vijay in selling the lawsuit ... it's what they do.

[Chas]

If the spray was on the forbidden list when Vijay used it, then he was in the wrong.  The fact that they took it off the list later is irrelevant, IMO.  If he knew it was on the list and still used it, then he knowing broke the rules.  If he didnt know it was on the list and used it, then ignorance is no excuse for not following the rules. It would certainly seem that Vijay is being a jerk here but this wouldnt exactly be the first time that you could say Vijay is being a jerk.

Agree with all of this. More disappointing news about Vijay, who is doing his reputation no good at all. Does he care? The science around the efficacy of antler spray is irrelevant here, someone needs to explain that to the golfer. That he was so gullible as to believe in it suggests he isn't going to get the point. Let's just say he may not be the loftiest wedge in the bag.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

I'm almost certain the attorneys riled up Vijay in selling the lawsuit ... it's what they do.

I honestly think a lot of guys like Vijay are more vulnerable to this kind of thing.

My mom's family was the same way.

When you come from nothing, you get used to relying on other people--your "community", whether friends or family--because it's just the way poor communities work.  That's probably why more of those people actually give back when they do get to a place in their lives where they can do so.

And I'm not talking about welfare, so please don't take it that way.  I'm talking about people helping people in the community so everyone is better off.  I can't speak for Vijay, but I know my mom's family tended to trust people more.  Things like selfishness and advancing your own interests at the expense of others around you just doesn't happen in those kinds of communities.

Maybe that made Vijay more trusting, and that's why he didn't check things out.  Maybe it made him trust his caddie and that's why he didn't bother to spend 10 minutes looking into S.W.A.T.S. to find out if it had a banned substance in it.  His caddie advised him, he trusted his caddie, and surely his caddie wouldn't suggest something that wasn't in his best interest.  Right?

Fast forward 6 months later and now a lawyer is advising him to sue because the PGA Tour made Vijay look bad.  How the conversation went down, or whether the lawyer was recommended by another "friend", we may never know.  Regardless, Vijay comes off looking naive.  Partly because he seems oblivious to the fact that his reputation took the biggest hit after he, himself, willingly admitted he used a banned substance.  Even worse was maybe the fact that not only was it a banned substance (only because it contained something on the WADA list), but it was a banned substance that didn't even work, considered to be "snake oil" by many.

Now you've got several groups that each have their own reason for losing respect:  one because he blew $9,000 on a "miracle cure" for his aging body that apparently had so little IGF-1 in it that (as his lawyer described) it's the equivalent of putting a shot glass of the product in a swimming pool and taking a drink of the water, another because he didn't bother to check the ingredients before using it, another because he admitted it in an interview and apparently didn't foresee the circus that would ensue, and yet another because he's decided (on the advice of a lawyer) that in order to repair the damage the best thing to do is take a little money from each of the player's PGA Tour pensions for himself and the lawyer.

On one hand I feel sorry for the guy because he doesn't seem like the same person who I heard about before.

On the other hand, I don't, because we're all adults, we're all responsible for our own actions, and if we don't take responsibility it's nobody's fault but our own.

[caniac6]

Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer

Supposedly on the 18th, someone yelled to Vijay that he sucks and he alledgedly yelled back to the guy, "come over here and say that". LOL  Apparently Vijay thinks he's a big tough guy now.

Have you  ever seen him in person? He's huge!

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by dave67az

I honestly think a lot of guys like Vijay are more vulnerable to this kind of thing.

My mom's family was the same way.

When you come from nothing, you get used to relying on other people--your "community", whether friends or family--because it's just the way poor communities work.  That's probably why more of those people actually give back when they do get to a place in their lives where they can do so.

And I'm not talking about welfare, so please don't take it that way.  I'm talking about people helping people in the community so everyone is better off.  I can't speak for Vijay, but I know my mom's family tended to trust people more.  Things like selfishness and advancing your own interests at the expense of others around you just doesn't happen in those kinds of communities.

Maybe that made Vijay more trusting, and that's why he didn't check things out.  Maybe it made him trust his caddie and that's why he didn't bother to spend 10 minutes looking into S.W.A.T.S. to find out if it had a banned substance in it.  His caddie advised him, he trusted his caddie, and surely his caddie wouldn't suggest something that wasn't in his best interest.  Right?

Fast forward 6 months later and now a lawyer is advising him to sue because the PGA Tour made Vijay look bad.  How the conversation went down, or whether the lawyer was recommended by another "friend", we may never know.  Regardless, Vijay comes off looking naive.  Partly because he seems oblivious to the fact that his reputation took the biggest hit after he, himself, willingly admitted he used a banned substance.  Even worse was maybe the fact that not only was it a banned substance (only because it contained something on the WADA list), but it was a banned substance that didn't even work, considered to be "snake oil" by many.

Now you've got several groups that each have their own reason for losing respect:  one because he blew $9,000 on a "miracle cure" for his aging body that apparently had so little IGF-1 in it that (as his lawyer described) it's the equivalent of putting a shot glass of the product in a swimming pool and taking a drink of the water, another because he didn't bother to check the ingredients before using it, another because he admitted it in an interview and apparently didn't foresee the circus that would ensue, and yet another because he's decided (on the advice of a lawyer) that in order to repair the damage the best thing to do is take a little money from each of the player's PGA Tour pensions for himself and the lawyer.

On one hand I feel sorry for the guy because he doesn't seem like the same person who I heard about before.

On the other hand, I don't, because we're all adults, we're all responsible for our own actions, and if we don't take responsibility it's nobody's fault but our own.

Ultimately when you accuse someone of using PED's you're accusing them of cheating.  I think we'd all agree there is nothing worse you could call a golfer than "cheater".   When you damage a persons reputation you impact their ability to earn a living.

What the PGA Tour did is the equivalent of you getting arrested for DWI because you were drinking a bottle of O'Douls non-alcoholic beer while driving.