Is slow play ever justifiable?

[Chas]

Justifiable? Is that you Raylan Givens? [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/75218/] [/URL] It's a moot point. Slow play is pretty much a given. Just have to deal with it. 4:30 in my area is speedy. Big metro areas, 5:30 to 6 on weekends is the norm. That is slow play. 7 is the longest I've ever experienced. Never again.

All I can say is .... Wow! Anything over 4:45 is slow to me, > 5:00 is molasses.

[mp33 man]

My grandpa used to say that bad players or walkers don't cause slow play, slow players cause slow play. [quote name="johnclayton1982" url="/t/67013/is-slow-play-ever-justifiable/30#post_844589"]Slow play can't be criticize without an objective standard.  Nobody thinks they are slow (or at least the vast, vast minority of slow players *actually think of themselves* as slow players).  The guy who you think is the slowest player at your club playing five hour rounds is reading this right now, nodding, remembering the time he got stuck behind a six hour guy and thinking "man, I hate slow players too." Thats the problem with these threads.  Without the course telling you what "slow play" is, everyone just posts up that they hate slow play while nobody thinks "I'm a slow player".  Its not objective - its subjective.  Thats why the duty is on the course to either post what is considered a fast round or shut it.  There is a 9-hole by my in-laws i play during thinksgiving. It has a sign posted telling people they shouldn't take more than 1 hour to play the nine (its very easy, 5 par 3s).  If they didn't have a sign, and i took an hour and a half, am i playing slow?  Who knows! Either the course has posted a time-for-round limit or it hasn't.  If it hasn't, tell them they should.  If you play on a course without rules regarding pace of play, don't complain.  All you're doing is projecting your opinion of "slow" on everyone else, none of whom there is ever any hope of getting to agree with you that they are in fact slow.  IN other words, if they pay the $60 they get to play the round they want unless the club has posted otherwise - there is no universal "slow round" absent a clear rule. [/quote] As far as admitting being a slow player, I am a slow player and I've been called a slow player but i still finish a round (18 holes) in under five hours (depending on who I'm playing with).

[colin007]

My grandpa used to say that bad players or walkers don't cause slow play, slow players cause slow play. As far as admitting being a slow player, I am a slow player and I've been called a slow player but i still finish a round (18 holes) in under five hours (depending on who I'm playing with).

You "still" finish in under 5 hours? That's too long bro.

[Chas]

Another slow round yesterday, playing with a young guy with a huge slice who couldn't exit a bunker to save his life. Lots of water holes as well. Nice chap but I started to get annoyed in the back nine (my bad ...) and let it affect my game. I started rushing MY shots a bit, after waiting for him to hit 2 or 3 times before advancing ahead of me each time. The other guy in the group had a decent game and seemed to take it in stride - impressive. I had him on the first nine but it went the other way coming back. Lesson learned, hopefully.

[mp33 man]

You "still" finish in under 5 hours? That's too long bro.

Hence the disclaimer "depending on who I'm playing with". If I'm playing with a client or my boss, 4 1/2 to 5 hrs...on a early morning with friends or alone, 4 hrs.

[David in FL]

But the problem is everyone on this board has a totally different definition of what "slow" is.  My saturday rounds take about 4 hours and twenty minutes.  Is that slow? I dunno.  My course says four and a half hour max.  That makes four hours twenty minutes reasonable. It is *completely pointless* to discuss slow play without posted round limits.

If you play off 9 and average 4:20, that's slow. REALLY slow!

[colin007]

Hence the disclaimer "depending on who I'm playing with". If I'm playing with a client or my boss, 4 1/2 to 5 hrs...on a early morning with friends or alone, 4 hrs.

Right, but 4 hours by yourself is telling me that you take your time. By yourself early morning shouldn't take you more than 3, 3 1/2 at the most. [quote name="David in FL" url="/t/67013/is-slow-play-ever-justifiable/54#post_844924"] If you play off 9 and average 4:20, that's slow. REALLY slow![/quote] I agree. If I'm playing with a 4 ball and we take 4:20 it always seems insufferably long and we are waiting on every hole.

[Dave2512]

Originally Posted by colin007

Right, but 4 hours by yourself is telling me that you take your time. By yourself early morning shouldn't take you more than 3, 3 1/2 at the most.

I thought that sounded high and honestly I don't time myself, just a vague idea. There's never anyone waiting on me unless I am waiting on someone in front so I assume I am fast. There's only so much putzing around you can do on a course alone and I'm not a speed golfer by any means. When alone I take my time with putts but everything else is just hit and go.

However I was just looking at my stats this AM while thinking about the slow play threads so I put a pencil to it. My two highest score percentages are bogey followed by par and the combination of the two account for 74.9% of the strokes I take. My average strokes over par is 13.5, 85.5 strokes, I don't play any sub par 72 tracks. It's not like I'm hitting it all over the course. At four hrs that's 2.8 minutes per stroke, travel between shots, bathroom breaks etc. That didn't seem exceedingly slow to me until I compared it to three hrs, 2.1 minutes per stroke. Not much difference. I can see why people don't think they are slow, just takes a few seconds more doing whatever to run it up.

[mp33 man]

Right, but 4 hours by yourself is telling me that you take your time. By yourself early morning shouldn't take you more than 3, 3 1/2 at the most. I don't know if you've ever seen the commercial about not having room in your bag for meetings, deadlines or conference calls... that is kinda how I see a round of golf( an opportunity to forget about work and the hustle and bussle of life). I tend to walk most courses and that takes a little bit of time and it also gives me the time to enjoy the course (and cool down between bad swings so that one bad swing doesn't turn into two bad swings). That doesn't mean that I try to take along time it just means that I don't jog to my next shot.

[NuclearMike]

No.  No justification for slow play.  None.  Never.  Ever.  Is that clear enough?

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

But the problem is everyone on this board has a totally different definition of what "slow" is.  My saturday rounds take about 4 hours and twenty minutes.  Is that slow?

I dunno.  My course says four and a half hour max.  That makes four hours twenty minutes reasonable.

It is *completely pointless* to discuss slow play without posted round limits.

It is a group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

That is from the etiquette section of the rules of golf. You don't need a set time limit, if your group has fallen back from the group in front then you're a slow group and you need to either pick up the pace or start letting groups through.

[RickK]

I have had friends and family members who wanted to take up the game of golf and asked me about playing golf with them.  My statement on this has always been the same.  I will go to the driving range with you, I will do my best to help you learn how to hit the ball and then how to play the game.  BUT, before I go out on the golf course with you, you MUST show me that you have the ability to hit the ball up in the air off the ground with an iron...not skull it along the ground.  If you can do this 9 out of 10 swings, we can go out on the course in late afternoon and play 9 holes to see how it goes.  I always tell them, I want you to learn how to play and I want to help you.  But, I want you to eliminate a lot of the frustrations on the range before we go to the golf course.

I think you do a person a disservice/injustice when you just take them directly to the golf course and call it...learning how to play golf.

Pace of play is a real concern to me because I am President of a golf league.  I think we play way too slow.  Normal rounds in our league is 4-1/2 to 5 hours.  It is the 5 hours that bothers me.  We play individual stroke play and we putt everything out.  There is no pick it up after 10 strokes and go on.  So, having people want to play in our league who really have extremely bad habits and struggle to shoot 140 poses a problem.  We don't have many but occasionally we do get someone who is just that way.  If there were no woods on the golf courses and it was wide open and you can find your ball 3 fairways over...that is one thing.  But, when a  person hits a ball into the woods, can't find it, (playing woods as lateral hazard), drops then hits the next one into the woods...it can take that person a long time to play and shooting in the 130s or 140s...that hurts.  That person really needs to stay off the golf course and spend all that money working on a swing on the range that keeps it findable.

[Dave2512]

Originally Posted by RickK

I have had friends and family members who wanted to take up the game of golf and asked me about playing golf with them.  My statement on this has always been the same.  I will go to the driving range with you, I will do my best to help you learn how to hit the ball and then how to play the game.  BUT, before I go out on the golf course with you, you MUST show me that you have the ability to hit the ball up in the air off the ground with an iron...not skull it along the ground.

Today I headed to the course late afternoon, usually dead after 3. I pull into the lot and see 2 guys and a woman changing shoes as I unload my bag and change shoes. I didn't want to get stuck behind a group, was there to get in and out quick so I kept an eye on them. Next thing I see is all three of them reach into the bed of a truck and remove 3 sealed boxes of starter sets, they unpacked it right there in the lot. I have no idea if they are brand new to the game but I practically ran to the clubhouse to get out in front of them. But that's exactly what they did, head for the range.

[trackster]

I've never been a huge fan of hitting on the range.  I learned to play on the course.  I have always been a very fast player, possibly a little too fast.  I would routinely walk 2:15 18 hole rounds when I first started, shooting anywhere between 90 and 110 per round.  Now I play to about just under 3 hours solo.  shooting 80-low 90s.  I range maybe 2 or 3 times a year if that.  I am much more a fan of getting into situations on the course and using those as practice.  Continually hitting ball after ball into an open field never seemed to do anything for me.

I get much more frustrated with players that are slow because they are bad, than players that are good but slow.  Watching someone hit grass burner after grass burner at a slow crawl is the worse.  I have no problem with a 1 minute pre shot routine that results in a 270 yard fairway splitter.

[mp33 man]

Today I headed to the course late afternoon, usually dead after 3. I pull into the lot and see 2 guys and a woman changing shoes as I unload my bag and change shoes. I didn't want to get stuck behind a group, was there to get in and out quick so I kept an eye on them. Next thing I see is all three of them reach into the bed of a truck and remove 3 sealed boxes of starter sets, they unpacked it right there in the lot. I have no idea if they are brand new to the game but I practically ran to the clubhouse to get out in front of them. But that's exactly what they did, head for the range.

This literally made me spit coffee out of my mouth...

[mp33 man]

I've never been a huge fan of hitting on the range.  I learned to play on the course.  I have always been a very fast player, possibly a little too fast.  I would routinely walk 2:15 18 hole rounds when I first started, shooting anywhere between 90 and 110 per round.  Now I play to about just under 3 hours solo.  shooting 80-low 90s.  I range maybe 2 or 3 times a year if that.  I am much more a fan of getting into situations on the course and using those as practice.  Continually hitting ball after ball into an open field never seemed to do anything for me.  I get much more frustrated with players that are slow because they are bad, than players that are good but slow.  Watching someone hit grass burner after grass burner at a slow crawl is the worse.  I have no problem with a 1 minute pre shot routine that results in a 270 yard fairway splitter.

Have you ever seen those bright colored flags out in that "open field"? those are targets...(my driving range actually put Obama and Romney's faces out there this last election) maybe aiming at those helps you pinpoint your yardages? I think that there was a thread about this called "are you practicing correctly?" Most times its easier and cheaper for me to go to the range and when I get done hitting ball after ball I simply play my favorite course by hitting the shots necessary for each hole. I remember reading somewhere that Hogan liked doing this on the range as well and I think he did rather well for himself. I also remember reading an interview of I think it was Tiger who said that one of most important aspects of your game is knowing the exact of each of your irons.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

If you play off 9 and average 4:20, that's slow. REALLY slow!

I play with an 18 and a 22 most Sat. mornings.  I agree, we are not a fast group, but we're not the slowest either.

Quote:

It is a group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

#1, this assumes everyone is four-to-a-group, which I almost never see on my course.  #2, if the group in front is playing speed golf, is it your responsibility to keep up?  #3 If I hit my drive out of bounds and the guy ahead of me birdies, you're telling me I have to let someone play through because I'm now a hole behind?

You can't put hard-and-fast rules on it absent a time limit.  It doesn't work.  There are too many variables in the game of golf.

Slow play is completely relative.  I don't hold up play Sat am at my course and play a 4:30 hour round.  Is that slow?  To some people yes (as seen by this thread).  To some people, no (as also seen by this thread since we are keeping up with the equally slow groups around us).  I think its the perfect pace of play for a leisurely Saturday morning round.  People behind me have disagreed before and gotten very frustrated with our pace, just as people ahead of me have gone slower than that and left me frustrated with their pace.  if my course posted up a 4 hour time limit i'd comply or find a new course.  In the abscence of a posted time limit, I pay my membership dues, and I'm going to play the round the way I want to play it, irregardless if there is some speed demon behind me who wants to play his saturday am round in 3 1/2 hours.  Its not happening.

The point is that all these threads everyone just agrees with each other that they hate slow play.  The anger/ire/frustration is misdirected at the golfers and not the course.  Either get your course to post a a time limit and enforce it or find somewhere that does.  Its annoying when people want you to play to their pace and you want to play slower than that.  You have every right to play your pace and ignore them provided you are complying with local rules.  In the abscence of a round time limit, a golfer is well within his rights to play his round his way, IMO.

I know this view is unpopular, but I don't think its fair to hold people to some arbitrary standard and get frustrated / pissed when they don't comply with your pace of play standards that they know nothing about and are not posted anywhere.

[JerryTimes]

I was playing by myself one morning and caught up to a foursome on the 12th. They wouldn't let me pass and they were very slow. Constantly talking and looking at each others shots before they hit. On the 15th I just left. I was so annoyed. Obviously I was going to cath up to them, but I was at 3 tee boxes with them and on the 13th hole I asked if I could play through. The guy looked at me and just said no.