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Is slow play ever justifiable?


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Several people have incinuated that just because you paid your money to play you should have the right to take as long as you like, no matter how long that is.

I'm not buying that philosophy at all. Just because I paid my money doesn't give me the right to ruin everyone's day, and cost the golf course money in additional customers they might have had that day because they are out of carts and/or room on the course, and from players not wanting to come back to where they took 5 to 6 hours to play a round.

The worst is for the people that also paid their money and are so hung up behind people that think they own the place that they never get to finish their round because of darkness when they should have had plenty of time.

It's pretty simple where I play. The owners would rather make you mad by telling you to speed up and have you not come back than to make the other 40 regular customers mad because they allowed a group to take all day to play, and not let people play through.

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People do get odd ideas, though. I played with some mates the other day -- 4 ball -- and we went round in 4:10 including a stop for breakfast at halfway (which is mandated here.) There was a 3 ball off next and they touched us only once -- on a par 3 -- and probably waited less than 60 seconds on that tee as our last guy putted out. Anyway, we're in the bar afterwards and the assistant pro comes over and says he had a complaint that we were "holding up the field." I relate the history and ask who's actually bitching and he says: "Oh no it wasn't that group, it was the 2 ball behind them. They're really pissed at you!"

Stretch.

"In the process of trial and error, our failed attempts are meant to destroy arrogance and provoke humility." -- Master Jin Kwon

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Quote:
Several people have incinuated that just because you paid your money to play you should have the right to take as long as you like, no matter how long that is.

You left out the critical part of the sentence. Unless the course has posted otherwise people can take as long as they want.  If you don't like it, play somewhere where they police pace of play.

My point is not that people should take as long as they want and everyone else can shove it.  My point is that it is pointless to get angry / frustrated with someone for slow play when the course can't even take the time to post what is considered an appropriate speed for a round.

I am trying to redirect the frustration and anger from people at other golfers to the courses that don't give guidance.  I play with new players alot.  They have no idea. All these slow play threads should be directed at courses that don't enforce/post pace of play requirements, not at slower golfers (who don't know they are slow and can't be expected to play to an arbitrary "acceptable" pace which varies with the day and a thousand factors).

If no time is posted, its not fair to hold people to some unspoken, arbitary standard.  In this thread, we've heard from several legit, serious golfers as to their standards for an acceptable rate of play.  We have had people say:

1.  As long as you are keeping up with group in front of you, no matter how slow they are or if its a five-some to your single, you're fine.

2.  4 1/2 hours is too long for someone playing off a 9.  No guidance on how fast is acceptable. 410? 3.5?

a.  Subnote: right after someone posted up saying 4 1/2 is too long, someone else posted            up a USGA scorecard with a recommended completition time of, you guessed it, 4 hours and 25 minutes.  Which is it guys?  Is 4 1/2 slow or exactly right?

3.  There is no standard, but I know slow play when I see it so, yeah, don't be slow.

4.   About 1/2 of experienced golfers want beginners to pick up to improve pace of play. The other 1/2 in other threads yell at them for being cheaters and dropping instead of re-teeing when the go OB, etc...  Which is it?

5.  New players should be given all the time they need.  Experience players, however, should not be playing slow.

There are at least five different slow play "tests" in the first two pages of this thread alone.  Its impossible to teach a new player how fast is OK.  If a course doesn't post a time, I say take as long as you want.  Other plays should get mad at the course for not posting the time.  When the course posts a time, everyone is on notice as to what slow play means.  Without that standard, yelling at someone or coming down on them for slow play is unfair.

Its impossible to enforce such a disparate cornacopia of BS, arbitary standards.  Either make the course tell us how fast is fast enough or leave us alone.  It gets extremely annoying having random golfers enforce their arbitrary standard of how fast they think I should play.  Without a posted time for the course, those golfers should be ignored, or politely told that there is no time limit for this course, and if they'd like to speed play up they should talk to the pro shop about implementing one.

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I think experienced golfers who head out on to the course with newbie golfers assume a responsibility here. Maybe kinda far fetched to say its like sitting in the passenger seat next to a kid with a learners permit, but it is a little bit like that if you are playing with someone who hasn't got the first clue what he is doing on the golf course.

I had the same I paid my money so I will play however slowly I wanna play conversation with a friend who started playing a while back, and who got real mad when I told him to pick up and try again from higher up the fairway after 6 shots that had advanced the ball maybe 50 yards. I told him he was paying his green fee to play golf and what he was wanting to do is not how golf is played.

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It's called common courtesy. Most of the time I have other obligations that day, and don't have 5 hours to spare. 95% of the people I have acquainted on the golf course are generally friendly and let me play through if they see I'm getting close. Some occasions they have let me play the hole with their group, putt in first, and go ahead to the next hole. I also agree that you don't need to play a course until you can hit the ball solid, consistently. My buddy refused to play a course for his first 8 months of swinging a club. He said wasting everyone's time wouldn't be fun for him. He lived at the range and the putting green. Getting swing instruction from YouTube and the few tips I gave him on the range. His first round with us, we gave him 2 mulligans to use off the tees. He kept up with our pace and shot a 87, no joke.
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Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

#1, this assumes everyone is four-to-a-group, which I almost never see on my course.  #2, if the group in front is playing speed golf, is it your responsibility to keep up?

I think you missed the part where it says AND you're holding up the group behind you.

In other words, if you're holding people up and there's space ahead of you, you let them through, regardless of the group size.

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

The anger/ire/frustration is misdirected at the golfers and not the course.

That's where you're wrong.

Let me quote from the Rules of Golf:

Pace Of Play

Play At Good Pace And Keep Up

Players should play at a good pace. The Committee may establish pace of play guidelines that all players should follow.

It is a group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

Be Ready To Play

Players should be ready to play as soon as it is their turn to play. When playing on or near the putting green, they should leave their bags or carts in such a position as will enable quick movement off the green and towards the next tee. When the play of a hole has been completed, players should immediately leave the putting green.

Lost Ball

If a player believes his ball may be lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, to save time, he should play a provisional ball.

Players searching for a ball should signal the players in the group behind them to play through as soon as it becomes apparent that the ball will not easily be found. They should not search for five minutes before doing so. Having allowed the group behind to play through, they should not continue play until that group has passed and is out of range.

Priority On The Course

Unless otherwise determined by the Committee, priority on the course is determined by a group’s pace of play. Any group playing a whole round is entitled to pass a group playing a shorter round. The term “group” includes a single player.

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

You left out the critical part of the sentence.  Unless the course has posted otherwise people can take as long as they want.  If you don't like it, play somewhere where they police pace of play.

Wrong. See above. It's called etiquette. Outside of golf it's called "common courtesy." You don't get to absolve all golfers of responsibility because some courses don't put time pars on the scorecard or have clocks every third hole.

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

My point is not that people should take as long as they want and everyone else can shove it.  My point is that it is pointless to get angry / frustrated with someone for slow play when the course can't even take the time to post what is considered an appropriate speed for a round.

That's like saying we shouldn't get ticked at someone who goes out of their way to stand around in the middle of a crosswalk because there's no sign there that says "please cross expediently." Or to get annoyed at two passengers in cars going 10 MPH slower than the speed limit driving side by side having a conversation for five miles because there's no sign prohibiting it (or a law).

No, I reject your statement. It's in the Rules of Golf, and it's civil, responsible, etc. to consider others.

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

If no time is posted, its not fair to hold people to some unspoken, arbitary standard.

I think it's perfectly fair. Let's hold people responsible for their actions. This abdicating of responsibility is getting really old these days. Pretty soon we're going to have a whole bunch of Sergio Garcias running around blaming everyone else for their failings. :)

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Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

There are at least five different slow play "tests" in the first two pages of this thread alone.

The test here is that if the course is bogged down with groups standing around waiting behind you, and the course is wide open in front of you, there's a good chance you are playing way too slow and you should think about shifting into a higher gear.

A little common sense (not very common these days) respecting the other players on the course goes a long way.

That includes both having some patience with people not as fast and relaxing a little, and having enough sense to look around and realize you are bogging the course down and speeding up.

No problem with slow play around here except for the occasional tourist that doesn't care what anybody thinks.

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I think you missed the part where it says AND you're holding up the group behind you. In other words, if you're holding people up and there's space ahead of you, you let them through, regardless of the group size. That's where you're wrong. Let me quote from the Rules of Golf:

Pace Of Play

Play At Good Pace And Keep Up

Players should play at a good pace. The Committee may establish pace of play guidelines that all players should follow.

[COLOR=0000FF] It is a group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. [/COLOR] Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

Be Ready To Play

Players should be ready to play as soon as it is their turn to play. When playing on or near the putting green, they should leave their bags or carts in such a position as will enable quick movement off the green and towards the next tee. When the play of a hole has been completed, players should immediately leave the putting green.

Lost Ball

If a player believes his ball may be lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, to save time, he should play a provisional ball.

Players searching for a ball should signal the players in the group behind them to play through as soon as it becomes apparent that the ball will not easily be found. They should not search for five minutes before doing so. Having allowed the group behind to play through, they should not continue play until that group has passed and is out of range.

Priority On The Course

Unless otherwise determined by the Committee, priority on the course is determined by a group’s pace of play. Any group playing a whole round is entitled to pass a group playing a shorter round. The term “group” includes a single player.

Wrong. See above. It's called etiquette. Outside of golf it's called "common courtesy." You don't get to absolve all golfers of responsibility because some courses don't put time pars on the scorecard or have clocks every third hole. That's like saying we shouldn't get ticked at someone who goes out of their way to stand around in the middle of a crosswalk because there's no sign there that says "please cross expediently." Or to get annoyed at two passengers in cars going 10 MPH slower than the speed limit driving side by side having a conversation for five miles because there's no sign prohibiting it (or a law). No, I reject your statement. It's in the Rules of Golf, and it's civil, responsible, etc. to consider others. I think it's perfectly fair. Let's hold people responsible for their actions. This abdicating of responsibility is getting really old these days. Pretty soon we're going to have a whole bunch of Sergio Garcias running around blaming everyone else for their failings. :)

Well said. Keep up with group in front of you.................... That is all.

my get up and go musta got up and went..
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I was playing by myself one morning and caught up to a foursome on the 12th. They wouldn't let me pass and they were very slow. Constantly talking and looking at each others shots before they hit. On the 15th I just left. I was so annoyed. Obviously I was going to cath up to them, but I was at 3 tee boxes with them and on the 13th hole I asked if I could play through. The guy looked at me and just said no.

Here's what you do next time. Pull out your phone and call the clubhouse and ask for them to send out a marshal and tell the other group that you'll let the marshal take care of it.

Colin P.

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Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

#1, this assumes everyone is four-to-a-group, which I almost never see on my course.  #2, if the group in front is playing speed golf, is it your responsibility to keep up?  #3 If I hit my drive out of bounds and the guy ahead of me birdies, you're telling me I have to let someone play through because I'm now a hole behind?

You can't put hard-and-fast rules on it absent a time limit.  It doesn't work.  There are too many variables in the game of golf.

I know this view is unpopular, but I don't think its fair to hold people to some arbitrary standard and get frustrated / pissed when they don't comply with your pace of play standards that they know nothing about and are not posted anywhere.

#1 It doesn't assume anything, having a set pace of play makes much bigger assumptions. The pace of play is always going to be a little slower during the monthly medal when all putts need to be holed, a set time limit can't take that into account.

#2 If the group in front is playing speed golf, and you can't keep up then if the group behind you is waiting on you (ie. they are faster) then you should invite them to play through.

#3 If you hit a drive out of bounds, it takes 30 seconds to re-tee and hit another. Even a lost ball should at most cost you 30 seconds for a provisional and 5 minutes searching for the first one. A hole takes 10 - 15 minutes to play so you can't lose a whole hole in one go. It takes a while to fall back that far, but yes if you lose a few balls then you either need to get moving and catch up quickly or let the group behind through.

This isn't some arbitrary standard, this comes from the Rules of Golf. It's simple, and when respected by all the players it works very well.

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Originally Posted by MS256

...A little common sense (not very common these days) respecting the other players on the course goes a long way...

And the bottom line is that a little common sense is all it takes.  C'mon, this isn't rocket science - if you're not keeping up with the group in front of you and you're slowing down the people behind you, speed up your play or pick up and move forward to catch up.  It's that simple.  There shouldn't have to be signs posted on the course telling you how fast to play.

I play off a 25 handicap, which means I'm usually shooting in the mid-90's to low 100's.  I'm certainly not striping everything down the middle and one-putting every green - I'm having to chase balls around, look for shots I hit off into the junk, etc.  Even so, I'm very conscientious about keeping the pace of play up and making sure that we're not holding people up behind us.  Of the group of guys I play with most often, I'm usually the one keeping an eye out behind us and if I see a group catching up, reminding the others that we need to speed it up....or if they've caught up to us, suggesting that we let them play through on the next tee.  That's just part of the etiquette I was taught as I learned how to play golf.

If you're fortunate enough to play solo on an uncrowded course with nobody else around you, no worries - play as fast or slow as you want.  If you enjoy a 6-hour round and it isn't affecting anybody else, who cares?  Otherwise, the attitude of "I paid, so I'll play as slow as I want" or "If the course doesn't have a pace of play posted, it doesn't exist" is a selfish, discourteous attitude.  I never see signs posted telling golfers not to throw trash on the course and/or urinate in the cup, so does that make it okay since they haven't explicitly prohibited it?  Or does that just fall under common sense/decency/courtesy?

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To me comes down to one thing, "Ready Golf"

While another person is hitting, go through your routine of getting the yardage, picking the club, so by the time your ready to go, you can get into your preshot routine.

Its simple math

If each person takes 1 minute to hit there shot, if they all wait till the last person finishes, your looking at 4 minutes. Lets say they can do 30 seconds of work while another person is hitting. Basically 3 out of the 4 could be ready to hit once 1 is done. Now your looking at 1 + .5 + .5 + .5 = 2.5 minutes. 37.5% faster right there. That's how ready golf can improve speed of play. Believe me, i play in a league were every guy plays ready golf. There is no such thing as longest from the hole. If a guy is looking for his ball and your ready to hit, have at it.

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