"Hey! While we're young!" - USGA Pace of Play

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Probably wait.  1/2 a hole isn't a huge gap.  If they fall further behind, you may try and play through or alert the marshal, but 1/2th a hole could just be a temporary thing.

Agree, half a hole isn't that much difference. That's what, a group on the green while your own the tee. That isn't that big of a deal. That group could have had a good hole, they could go flop the next one and cause you to wait. One hole isn't a trend of slow play.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Probably wait.  1/2 a hole isn't a huge gap.  If they fall further behind, you may try and play through or alert the marshal, but 1/2th a hole could just be a temporary thing.

Agree, half a hole isn't that much difference. That's what, a group on the green while your own the tee. That isn't that big of a deal. That group could have had a good hole, they could go flop the next one and cause you to wait. One hole isn't a trend of slow play.

Got to disagree.  One hole is the start of a backup.  One hole is more than a full starting time behind the pace.  Even a half hole should be a warning that your group needs to catch up.  These are the things that proper training and observation bring to light.  In the last 40 years I've spent too many hours on a golf course, both working and playing, and one thing you learn is that every trend starts small.  This is where the players themselves need to be selfpolicing, and in order to do that they need to know that being a half hole behind the pace is not acceptable unless it's a very temporary condition and they are already working to catch up.

Falling slightly behind is not a crime.  We aren't all perfect golfers and we all have our ups and downs.  But recognizing when you have fallen behind and when an extra effort is required to regain your position on the course is a learned skill which needs to be taught - that information needs to somehow be disseminated and made readily available to the playing public.

Originally Posted by saevel25

Agree, half a hole isn't that much difference. That's what, a group on the green while your own the tee. That isn't that big of a deal. That group could have had a good hole, they could go flop the next one and cause you to wait. One hole isn't a trend of slow play.

What happens when you are a half hole behind, then the group behind you is a half hole behind you, and so on for 4 or 5 groups?  Sorry to wake you up but now you have a problem.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

What happens when you area half hole behind, then the group behind you is a half hole behind you, and so on for 4 or 5 groups?  Sorry to wake you up but now you have a problem.

The likely hood of 4 groups in successive ordering being half a hole behind, 5 minutes behind, is unlikely. Its a poor hypothetical. If your going to make a hypothetical make it realistic.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

What happens when you area half hole behind, then the group behind you is a half hole behind you, and so on for 4 or 5 groups?  Sorry to wake you up but now you have a problem.

The likely hood of 4 groups in successive ordering being half a hole behind, 5 minutes behind, is unlikely. Its a poor hypothetical. If your going to make a hypothetical make it realistic.

That just explains how much you don't know.  I worked as a starter for 5 years, and as part of the job I timed every group of players coming off the 9th and 18th holes.  While it may not be consecutive groups, that is exactly the process which tends to bog a course down, yet nobody can quite pinpoint where the slow down is.  No significant gap shows up until those groups start getting halfway through the back 9 where it's too late to fix it.  Now the entire course is backed up, and it's a hopeless task trying to get it back on pace.  Most of the time those slow days are not caused by one very slow group.  That's easy for the ranger to identify and deal with.  It's when one or two groups are slightly slow, then a couple of groups stack up  on them, then another slow group loses a little more time behind them and the problem just snowballs.  Now you have a Slinky effect jammed up on the course and groups just keep running into the log jam and there's nothing anyone can do to unsnarl it.  I've seen it happen too many times to pass off such an uninformed comment.

This is why a time clock system is almost a necessity.  If you are off pace that is going to show it better than any gap measurement.  The rangers at my home course have a matrix by which the can tell exactly where any group is supposed to be based on their starting time, but that doesn't help the players figure it out.  I've played  courses with GPS carts which also have a clock function which tracks your location and displays where you are for pace.  My brother and I would look at that as we approached the green and it would say we were 3 or 4 minutes behind pace, but when we cleared the green we would be ahead of pace.  Never did quite figure out why it had that rubber band effect, but we were never off pace standing on the tee.  It was an effective way to keep the course on pace, and the ranger had a display which showed any cart which was off pace and how much off pace they were.  If a problem started to develop, he was right on top of it, and the players couldn't claim ignorance.  Unfortunately GPS carts are an expensive luxury and most courses can't afford them.

[newtogolf]

Since cart play is the hot topic here lately, I thought I'd share my experiences today.

Today on the course was "How not to play golf quickly using a cart"

We were behind two very nice ladies who happened to be behind four not so nice ladies (that's what you get for booking a 10:30 am tee time on a weekday).  The two ladies were clearly new to the sport, though they had the latest and greatest Nike golfing outfits and gear.  Both teed off with their brand new Nike Covert Tour Drivers which matched their Nike Covert Tour woods and Nike Covert irons.

Their drives went about 60 yards on opposite sides of the fairway into the rough.  They drove together to the first ball, looked around for the ball, found it, the lady hit it about 30 yards with her fairway wood and then they drove all the way across the fairway to hit the partners ball.  Neither one could put it into the middle of the fairway so this proceeded down the entire 500 yard fairway until they reached the green.  I'd estimate the crossed the fairway about 7 times total.  They each took about 4 putts before giving each other a gimme then ran all around the green and 2nd cut picking up the clubs they dropped on the way to the green (can't drive the carts within at least 30 yards of green on most holes).  This repeated on every hole up until the 9th when we witnessed the worst cart use failure of all time.

The unbelievable happened on the 9th hole which is a par 5.  The ladies parked their cart at the no cart line (about 50 yards from green), grabbed a bunch of clubs and proceeded to hit about 5 shots each to reach the green (rough, sand traps, etc) leaving the cart behind.  We almost laughed out loud after watching them take 4 putts each they suddenly realized their cart was about 70 yards away.  They had a quick discussion about how and who was going to retrieve the cart, they were in a total panic, finally one of them started jogging towards the cart but quickly lost her wind and barely made it to the cart, we were taking bets if she would make it.  She crawled in, drove to the cart path to clear the fairway but she forgot her friend in the middle of the fairway who was seemingly too exhausted to walk.  After staring at each other the lady in the cart drove back onto the fairway to pick up her friend and their clubs which they proceeded to wipe and put away in their bags.

Thankfully a thunder storm put us all out of our misery and we met up at the cart return where the one woman apologized profusely for their slow play.  I laughed and told them about the USGA site and that it might help them to avoid an uncomfortable situation next time when the guys behind them aren't quite so patient.

For those of you wondering why we didn't play through, the 4 some in front of the ladies refused to let us play through claiming they were playing at an appropriate pace (they weren't).  The rest of the course was pretty full so we decided to just suck it up and have some laughs.  I actually posted one of my lowest scores for the front 9 so it wasn't all bad.

[boogielicious]

At the US Open yesterday, they were following Paula Creamer's group.  On one hole, Creamer was taking a long time discussing the shot with her caddie.  Judy Rankin (announcer) said, "when do we yell, "Hey, While we're young!".  Perfect example too.

[TJBam]

Nothing like being stuck behind a very healthy sized woman duffer on a cart path only day who refuses to acknowledge us.  And her three cronies.

Bonus: After duffing her drive and walking out to hit it with a hybrid, duffing it again about 15 yards, she makes a 2 minute trek to the cart to switch clubs.  This happened 5+ times.  It's a 15 yard difference lady I wouldn't worry about carrying the green!!!

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by TJBam

Nothing like being stuck behind a very healthy sized woman duffer on a cart path only day who refuses to acknowledge us.  And her three cronies.

Bonus: After duffing her drive and walking out to hit it with a hybrid, duffing it again about 15 yards, she makes a 2 minute trek to the cart to switch clubs.  This happened 5+ times.  It's a 15 yard difference lady I wouldn't worry about carrying the green!!!

I would have said something. I've done it before...I don't care if I come off as rude, they were rude first by refusing to acknowledge anyone else.

[dave67az]

I realize I haven't been doing my required reading, so my apologies for not reading the 16 pages of posts.  At the risk of repeating something someone else said...

A lot of people (including me) complain about the pace of play on the Tour.  But the Masters situation between Tiger and Sergio was a perfect example of what happens sometimes when pros try to play "Ready Golf".  Tiger did what we're told to do (don't wait for your playing partner to hit...get to your ball, look at your shot, pull your club, and be ready to hit when he's done hitting).  Granted, he lied when he said that the marshal told him Sergio had already hit, so he may not have been doing it after all (who'll know?).  But the point is, the fans react to everything golfers do sometimes.  If they pull a fairway wood on a par 5, the fans cheer because "oh, cool, he's gonna go for it."

Now personally, I don't think Sergio had an excuse because the same thing can happen on the tee when someone on the previous green sinks a great putt.  But the point is he probably isn't the only golfer on the Tour who doesn't like fan noise in the middle of his backswing.

I honestly think the pace of play problem on the Tour is unrelated to casual golf.  Besides waiting for the other guy to hit before they prepare for their shot, I think caddies slow the game down a lot.  I've seen Mickelson stand on the tee box of a par-3 discussing a shot for at least a minute.  And since they usually don't have to search for lost balls with all the spotters on the course, they should be faster than casual golfers overall.

My wife has a real problem keeping up, but she's still a beginning golfer (picked up her first club less than a year ago).  We only play 9 holes at most when we play (she sometimes will pick up after less than that if it's just not coming together) but we've had to let folks play through at times.  I always let the guys at the pro shop know before we go out that she's a beginning golfer and if we fall behind we'll let other groups through, and they're cool with that.  That's why we try to play late in the day, when there are few groups behind us and the only thing we're fighting is a sunset.  It's hard to maintain pace when you're rarely in the fairway, take more shots, and when trying to "hurry up" just makes you hit MORE bad shots.

[iacas]

Dave, it was at The Players and we don't know Tiger lied about the marshal. Additionally you can play ready golf and draw a club when it won't annoy the others. That I know. Especially when you don't have a crowd. :)

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJBam

Nothing like being stuck behind a very healthy sized woman duffer on a cart path only day who refuses to acknowledge us.  And her three cronies.

Bonus: After duffing her drive and walking out to hit it with a hybrid, duffing it again about 15 yards, she makes a 2 minute trek to the cart to switch clubs.  This happened 5+ times.  It's a 15 yard difference lady I wouldn't worry about carrying the green!!!

I would have said something. I've done it before...I don't care if I come off as rude, they were rude first by refusing to acknowledge anyone else.

Me too.  It isn't rude when they are clueless.  They can take it any way they like, but from the sound of it, they had no business on the course in the first place, at least that one large woman didn't.  Hopefully she improved slightly after that.  If not, then I'd have been inclined to drive right past them, drop in the fairway at my normal drive distance and just tell them as we pass, "We're playing through!".  Some people need a wakeup call.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by iacas

Dave, it was at The Players and we don't know Tiger lied about the marshal.

Additionally you can play ready golf and draw a club when it won't annoy the others. That I know. Especially when you don't have a crowd. :)

TPC, that's right...I was gonna edit it when I re-read my post.  Thanks for the catch.

But I do remember the video showed the marshal said nothing to Tiger, nor did he ask the marshal anything, before drawing his club.

I guess it's always possible he asked the marshal before the camera was on him, or maybe there was an additional marshal on scene.

I do find it funny that you rarely see pros on the tee complain about noise from the previous green.  Maybe I just haven't been watching closely enough and I missed it, but I think that would bug me more than it happening in a fairway.

But I doubt it's the noise that's slowing Tour players down anyway.  I still think it's discussions with their caddie and over-analyzing shots.  Add that to the fact that this is a growing problem that has been rarely enforced in the past, and you have an epidemic that bleeds into casual golf.

I taught Lisa to read putts quickly and trust her first instinct and now that's one part of her game that needs very little work.  No, she's not putting for a million dollars, but I honestly don't think standing over a putt or another minute is going to give you a magic "hit it here" line.

I'd love to see an experiment.  Round One, let golfers take as much time as they want on the greens reading their putts.  Round Two, limit your reads to 10-15 seconds.  Compare the number of putts.  I'd bet for 90% of golfers there's little difference if any.

I'd also like to see, instead of a stroke limit before picking up on a hole, the USGA institute a time limit recommendation.  If you've been on a hole for "X" number of minutes (they could easily put the time limits on the score cards for par 3's, 4's, and 5's) and you still haven't holed out (even if you're only on your fourth shot because you were looking for a lost ball) pick it up and move on so you're directly behind the group in front of you, or to the next tee, whichever is closer.  Just another thought.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by dave67az

I'd also like to see, instead of a stroke limit before picking up on a hole, the USGA institute a time limit recommendation.  If you've been on a hole for "X" number of minutes (they could easily put the time limits on the score cards for par 3's, 4's, and 5's) and you still haven't holed out (even if you're only on your fourth shot because you were looking for a lost ball) pick it up and move on so you're directly behind the group in front of you, or to the next tee, whichever is closer.  Just another thought.

That's not gonna happen, and you know it. It doesn't solve anything - one group holding up the other groups will be in the same exact position they are now - they can't pick up and move ahead because they're waiting on people.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by iacas

That's not gonna happen, and you know it. It doesn't solve anything - one group holding up the other groups will be in the same exact position they are now - they can't pick up and move ahead because they're waiting on people.

I see your point.  New recommendations are worthless unless there's someone to enforce them on the people who either don't bother to LEARN about the recommendations or are unwilling to FOLLOW them.  I'll blame today's heat on my optimism in hoping people would do what's best for the game.  No, I don't have an excuse for the other times...but if you give me a few minutes...

[clutchshot]

I'm sorry guys, but I hate this campaign.... We are looking for a way to boost the game and get new players on board? This is not it, just makes golf look even more uninviting... There are all these misconceptions people who don't play have... It's expensive (maybe when you play as much as me, but you can usually find good deals), it's played by rich, upper class people (it is... But a lot of everyday people are playing too), you have o be good to play (this obviously isn't true...), and now you have to play fast or your not welcome... I'm not supporting slow play, but let's not make our beloved sport look so uninviting.... If I want to play a good pace, I book a tee time, if I don't care (which is most of the time... More time to drink and BS on te beautiful course) I play a public course and get in line.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by clutchshot

I'm sorry guys, but I hate this campaign....

We are looking for a way to boost the game and get new players on board? This is not it, just makes golf look even more uninviting...

There are all these misconceptions people who don't play have... It's expensive (maybe when you play as much as me, but you can usually find good deals), it's played by rich, upper class people (it is... But a lot of everyday people are playing too), you have o be good to play (this obviously isn't true...), and now you have to play fast or your not welcome...

I'm not supporting slow play, but let's not make our beloved sport look so uninviting....

If I want to play a good pace, I book a tee time, if I don't care (which is most of the time... More time to drink and BS on te beautiful course) I play a public course and get in line.

I'm not sure I see how this will keep anyone from wanting to learn to play, honestly.  I'm not sure those are all misconceptions either.  I've tried getting people to learn, and I hear the same things.  Expense is the number one complaint.  A basic set of clubs and accessories (glove, balls, bag, etc) will run you $300.  We harp on people to take lessons if they want to be any good, and that's going to run about $50 a lesson.  And even after that they end up paying $30+ for each round, not including drinks.  That's pretty expensive compared to other sports.  I can buy a tennis racquet and balls for under $30 and play for free in public parks and tennis complexes (we had a great one in my hometown of Springfield, MO).  I can buy a bowling ball and shoes for under $100 and each time I play it's less than $20 (plus drinks) or I can be cheap and use house balls and rent shoes for another couple of bucks.

You do have to be pretty good to enjoy the game (for MOST people) and I believe that's why so many give up the game.  The price vs. reward just isn't worth it to most.

I don't think they're doing anything to turn off people.  And the commercials give clear examples of idiots who are doing things they're not supposed to be doing (walking off a tee to make a beer-cart run?  seriously?).  I think most people, even the ones who don't play the game, get that this campaign isn't about taking too many shots or slowing things down because you're not very good...it's about wasting time.  So yeah, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[clutchshot]

Fair enough on most of what you touched base on, but you can play cheap golf if you want to... I paid $130 for my first set of clubs with a bag and my father found a set at a garage sale for $10. There's also usually some course you can find cheap rates, had one at my old house that let you play 9 holes for $8 after 4. So it used to cost me about $20 a week to play... Not the most expensive hobby at the time.... Now... It may have gotten expensive.... (clubs are TM, PING, etc., courses are more...) Back on topic: I think golf is a game that can and should be enjoyed by everyone, fast, slow, young, old.... The Tour: talking of slow, these guys play slower than anyone Ive ever seen in real life! Us there a reason they can't use carts to Speed this up?

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by clutchshot

Fair enough on most of what you touched base on, but you can play cheap golf if you want to...

I paid $130 for my first set of clubs with a bag and my father found a set at a garage sale for $10. There's also usually some course you can find cheap rates, had one at my old house that let you play 9 holes for $8 after 4. So it used to cost me about $20 a week to play... Not the most expensive hobby at the time....

Now... It may have gotten expensive.... (clubs are TM, PING, etc., courses are more...)

Back on topic: I think golf is a game that can and should be enjoyed by everyone, fast, slow, young, old....

The Tour: talking of slow, these guys play slower than anyone Ive ever seen in real life! Us there a reason they can't use carts to Speed this up?

I think if you timed them, you'd find that most of the wasted time is NOT in getting to the ball, it's in what they do once they get there.