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2013 NCAA College Football


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Originally Posted by David in FL View Post


If you can't beat em on the field, let's sling some mud and see what sticks, huh?

Nope, not slinging mud, I never said Winston did anything at all. I was just talking hypothetical.

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This is a 100% true statement.  Right or wrong, the statement in itself is true--and I think that more often than not a police investigator will point this out WHEN TALKING TO THE ATTORNEY OR REPRESENTATIVE.  Note it doesn't say that he said this to the victim, i.e. the allegation isn't that the detective pressured the victim not to report or proceed.  When professionals speak to other professionals about these things, they tend to be matter of fact.  I used to have frank discussions all the time with criminal investigators about how crappy the Government's case was in these types of sex assault cases.  I would never tell the victim that, and once we make the decision to go to court--that's it.  We're in.

No Police officer should be saying this. It doesn't matter if your in a football town or not. The police are their to protect the victim, if its Winston from a false accusation or the girl who might have been raped. In doing so the police has no obligation to be biased to one side or the other. In stating such a thing they are being prejudicial towards the girl, and coming from an authority figure it can be seen as pressured.

"A good conversation is not designed to win the argument. It is designed to enjoy the exchange."

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No Police officer should be saying this. It doesn't matter if your in a football town or not. The police are their to protect the victim, if its Winston from a false accusation or the girl who might have been raped. In doing so the police has no obligation to be biased to one side or the other. In stating such a thing they are being prejudicial towards the girl, and coming from an authority figure it can be seen as pressured.

It would be biased if he didn't say it.  It's true.  Suppressing true, relevant statements in order to shape a story is kinda the definition of bias.

If I'm prosecuting a case (and I've prosecuted or overseen the prosecution of quite a few of these), I need to know my victim is there with me for the long haul.  I've got no case without a victim.  And if I'm going all in for a case, I don't want the victim to bail the week before trial.

Essentially, he's saying "Is your girl going to be in this until the end?  Because it's going to get really, really tough."  According to the statement (which is a one-sided account of what was actually said) the detective doesn't say "Quit now--it's not worth it."  He just says "think long and hard about it and make sure you know this is what you want before we put your name on a public document."  To me that's pretty consistent with what any detective, or victim's counsel, would be thinking.

Again, this is not the detective talking to the victim. This is the detective talking to a professional lawyer who represents the victim.  I've had this same conversation with an actual victim, although it's a very, very delicate conversation--and usually done by a victim advocate.  You don't hit the girl over the head with all the shit that's going to be said about her throughout the course of the investigation and trial.  But you do want to make sure they understand the full process and know all of the things that are likely to come up in the case.  If you don't do that, you're going to do a lot of work on a lot of cases that never go to trial.  Or, even worse, the victim ends up blaming YOU--the guy who's prosecuting the scumbag that raped her--for all the bad crap that was said about her during the trial.  If that happens, she'll look like she doesn't trust you when she testifies.  Then the guy gets acquitted, and she really hates you.

These cases are hard.

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Kevin

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If you can't beat em on the field, let's sling some mud and see what sticks, huh?

Yeah, I tend to think this way as well.  Like k-troop points out ... the logic behind the conference rankings is circular because they all (mostly) just play each other.  All of the conferences are likely fairly close to each other in overall strength.  If Alabama and Oregon swapped places, there's a good chance that they'd both still do quite well in their new conferences.  Same with FSU, Baylor and OSU.

Likewise, swap Kentucky, Cal and Purdue, and they are all still going to suck.

Parity in college football isn't nearly what it is in the NFL, but there are a lot of good teams all over the place that compete with others.

----------------------------------

I'm choosing to follow Colin Cowherd's lead and ignore the Winston "story" until the its not so "alleged."

Nope, not slinging mud, I never said Winston did anything at all. I was just talking hypothetical.

No Police officer should be saying this. It doesn't matter if your in a football town or not. The police are their to protect the victim, if its Winston from a false accusation or the girl who might have been raped. In doing so the police has no obligation to be biased to one side or the other. In stating such a thing they are being prejudicial towards the girl, and coming from an authority figure it can be seen as pressured.

My view is that us (not TST, but the outside world as a whole) talking about this type of thing can do no good to any of the parties here.

Duke Lacrosse comes to mind.

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"A good conversation is not designed to win the argument. It is designed to enjoy the exchange."

Matt "Dough", P.E.
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He's a smart guy, that k-troop.  (Kind of annoying!;))  Gotta watch out for him!

He's a logic assassin :-D

"A good conversation is not designed to win the argument. It is designed to enjoy the exchange."

Matt "Dough", P.E.
My Game Golf Profile -
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Thanks!

I'll just add that none of us know what really happened between the Tallahassee Police and the victim's lawyer.  The Florida panhandle can be pretty old-boy's redneck country (sorry for any panhandlers that I've offended), and maybe the detective did try to intimidate this woman through her lawyer.  "Tell your girl to back off--we've got a championship to win here!" is possibly what was said (although they weren't staring down a BCS bid when all of this happened).

I'm more inclined to believe the perfectly reasonable and more plausible explanations that I gave, though.  It would be exceedingly stupid to threaten/intimidate a witness through her lawyer.  I'm also quite surprised to see a lawyer who is representing a victim releasing these kinds of statements--that makes it even more suspicious in my book.  To the world, it looks like back-woods redneck policing.  To me it smells like the opening salvo of a demand for reparations from the state, which would be the only avenue if the case against the alleged perp isn't going anywhere.

Kevin

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Mariota, his only loss is to Stanford, and he even played good passing the ball in that game.

"A good conversation is not designed to win the argument. It is designed to enjoy the exchange."

Matt "Dough", P.E.
My Game Golf Profile -
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Mariota, his only loss is to Stanford, and he even played good passing the ball in that game.

I tend to agree.

Maybe Winston......but the allegations certainly affect his chances.

In David's bag....

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I think Winston is toast as Heisman. There will be voters who can't look past the allegations. They tend to look at character as well. That is why I think Johnny Football might have a hard time due to his off the field hype he got before the season. If Baylor goes undefeated, then I think Bryce has a big advantage over Mariota.

"A good conversation is not designed to win the argument. It is designed to enjoy the exchange."

Matt "Dough", P.E.
My Game Golf Profile -
Click Here! (It's not a trap) fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver: :callaway: GBB Epic,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: :srixon: (4-PW)
Wedges:
:edel: Trapper (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :bushnell: Tour V2

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I think Winston is toast as Heisman. There will be voters who can't look past the allegations. They tend to look at character as well. That is why I think Johnny Football might have a hard time due to his off the field hype he got before the season. If Baylor goes undefeated, then I think Bryce has a big advantage over Mariota.

I wish this were true, but Cam Newton comes to mind.

Kevin

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Adams Idea A12 Pro hybrid 18*; 23* with RIP S flex
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I wish this were true, but Cam Newton comes to mind.

But people can sympathize with players not getting paid. I think its probably a majority of people think they should be. So the negative implication of his father taking money isn't as bad as what Winston is being accused of.

"A good conversation is not designed to win the argument. It is designed to enjoy the exchange."

Matt "Dough", P.E.
My Game Golf Profile -
Click Here! (It's not a trap) fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver: :callaway: GBB Epic,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: :srixon: (4-PW)
Wedges:
:edel: Trapper (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :bushnell: Tour V2

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But people can sympathize with players not getting paid. I think its probably a majority of people think they should be. So the negative implication of his father taking money isn't as bad as what Winston is being accused of.

I was referring to this. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/college/cam-newton-lame-laptop-thief He burglarized the room of another student, attempted to hide evidence, and lied to the cops. Far worse that what Johnny Football did, though JF's actions will be viewed more harshly by Heisman voters because his "offenses" were against his team.

Kevin

Titleist 910 D3 9.5* with ahina 72 X flex
Titleist 910F 13.5* with ahina 72 X flex
Adams Idea A12 Pro hybrid 18*; 23* with RIP S flex
Titleist 712 AP2 4-9 iron with KBS C-Taper, S+ flex
Titleist Vokey SM wedges 48*, 52*, 58*
Odyssey White Hot 2-ball mallet, center shaft, 34"

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Up until today I passed off the Winston story as nothing but the DNA evidence puts it in a much more serious light. I am an Alabama fan but I am rooting for FSU also and hoping to see the teams meet down the road (although I don't have a whole lot of confidence going into Auburn). I've seen nightmares in that game too many times.

I know FSU"s DC and he coached my son in high school so I'm happy to see him doing so well.

I truly hope nothing illegal happened but it's not looking good with the facts that we know about.

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Up until today I passed off the Winston story as nothing but the DNA evidence puts it in a much more serious light. I am an Alabama fan but I am rooting for FSU also and hoping to see the teams meet down the road (although I don't have a whole lot of confidence going into Auburn). I've seen nightmares in that game too many times.

I know FSU"s DC and he coached my son in high school so I'm happy to see him doing so well.

I truly hope nothing illegal happened but it's not looking good with the facts that we know about.

Has Winston been interviewed and claimed that he didn't know the accuser?  Or something to that effect that, combined with the DNA evidence, would show that he was a liar, and thus, was hiding something?  Because if not, his DNA doesn't really say much ... it just says that they've been close together.

I don't think the DNA evidence, by itself, means a hill of beans.

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Has Winston been interviewed and claimed that he didn't know the accuser?  Or something to that effect that, combined with the DNA evidence, would show that he was a liar, and thus, was hiding something?  Because if not, his DNA doesn't really say much ... it just says that they've been close together.

I don't think the DNA evidence, by itself, means a hill of beans.


I have no idea what Winston himself has said (if anything) but Winston's attorney implied Winston and the victim had consensual sex.    Then he back-tracked a bit on that statement/implication but said the DNA evidence was not surprising to them..

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