What is your opinion on the "Breakfast Ball"?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToblaT

It actually fits the definition fine.

That's what I get when I google for a definition of golf. Just because it's not by the rules you chose to follow doesn't make it another sport, it just makes it golf by a slightly different set of rules. What you are saying would mean, for example, that untill 1952 (USGA started to jointly issue rules with the R&A;) people in the US didn't play golf, but a "game that sort of looks like golf".

And of course, Google is the standard by which we define the many different aspects of the sport.

If you're interested however, here's how the USGA defines "golf":

1-1. General

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive stroke in accordance with the Rules.

Please note the "in accordance with the rules" thang......

In no game of pick-up basketball in this country is every rule of basketball adhered to. (The "3-seconds in the key" rule is the first to come to mind.)

Are all those people playing basketball, or are they playing a game that sort of looks like basketball but fails to meet the definition?

Just curious.

(And just to be clear, I play by the rules. I just think people who don't are still playing golf.)

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS256

I guess they've done those things for so long that they think of it as standard procedure, and yes they all talked about their "scores" at the end of the round, as if nothing was out of the ordinary, and even compared them to what I shot. SMH.

That's the part that would possibly annoy me a bit.  I dislike it when my buddies or co-workers do that, knowing they don't play by the rules.

Me too, and I know a lot of people that do that.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

(And just to be clear, I play by the rules. I just think people who don't are still playing golf.)

Can we stop the back and forth on this? I suspect everyone knows what others are saying when they say "that's not golf."

Countless characters and words have been sacrificed to the petty and pointless discussion of "is this golf?" when BOTH sides know exactly what the other side is saying.

And I'm not picking on you, Bill, I'm saying "you" in the general sense, just using your quote as the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

(And just to be clear, I play by the rules. I just think people who don't are still playing golf.)

Can we stop the back and forth on this? I suspect everyone knows what others are saying when they say "that's not golf."

Countless characters and words have been sacrificed to the petty and pointless discussion of "is this golf?" when BOTH sides know exactly what the other side is saying.

And I'm not picking on you, Bill, I'm saying "you" in the general sense, just using your quote as the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

I actually don't know what the other side is saying. They're saying golf is only "a game that resembles golf" if you're not playing by the rules. I was curious if they feel the same way about basketball or other sports, and if not why not. That question has not been raised as far as I can tell, at least not in this thread. But I'm happy to drop it if you feel that strongly about it being unworthy of discussion.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I actually don't know what the other side is saying. They're saying golf is only "a game that resembles golf" if you're not playing by the rules.

You just said "I don't know what the other side is saying" and then in the next sentence said exactly what they're saying.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I was curious if they feel the same way about basketball or other sports, and if not why not.

They do. It's been covered. They've said pickup games of baseball with ghost runners isn't actually "baseball" and three-on-three is not basketball, etc. Little League is still baseball because they have different rules at that level, so they're following those amended rules, and so on.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

In no game of pick-up basketball in this country is every rule of basketball adhered to. (The "3-seconds in the key" rule is the first to come to mind.)

Are all those people playing basketball, or are they playing a game that sort of looks like basketball but fails to meet the definition?

Just curious.

(And just to be clear, I play by the rules. I just think people who don't are still playing golf.)

Me too, and I know a lot of people that do that.

I think they call that "Street Ball" to be honest, similar to AND1... you're welcome.

[Lash]

Originally Posted by iacas

You just said "I don't know what the other side is saying" and then in the next sentence said exactly what they're saying.

They do. It's been covered. They've said pickup games of baseball with ghost runners isn't actually "baseball" and three-on-three is not basketball, etc. Little League is still baseball because they have different rules at that level, so they're following those amended rules, and so on.

It keeps being brought up because, frankly, that is a stupid and wrong way of thinking.

I said it in another thread...but the CFL still plays football when a receiver leaves before the ball is snapped, the AL still plays baseball when they use a DH, and the international leagues still play basketball with a different shaped lane and 3-point line. To say scrambling or some other variation is not golf is just being stubborn and obtuse. That's why it keeps being brought up, because people keep making that statement.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I actually don't know what the other side is saying. They're saying golf is only "a game that resembles golf" if you're not playing by the rules.

You just said "I don't know what the other side is saying" and then in the next sentence said exactly what they're saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I was curious if they feel the same way about basketball or other sports, and if not why not.

They do. It's been covered. They've said pickup games of baseball with ghost runners isn't actually "baseball" and three-on-three is not basketball, etc. Little League is still baseball because they have different rules at that level, so they're following those amended rules, and so on.

The part where I didn't know what they were saying was the part where I didn't know what they'd say about *other* sports. I just searched the thread for "ghost", "runner", and "three-on-three" and the only hits were in your post right there.  There was one other hit on "baseball" but that post agreed with me (Lash in post 188, seconded by thescarecrow in the next post.) So I'd never seen a dissenting opinion until now, and therefore thought I was bringing something new to the discussion by addressing it.

Spyder, that's interesting that you think I and the guys at my work who play basketball at lunch are not really playing basketball, even though it's 5-on-5 and we play by all NBA rules except we don't call 3 seconds and don't shoot free throws. I disagree that what we're playing is "street ball", but won't try to change your mind.

(But I *know* we're not playing AND1, because we don't allow traveling or carrying the ball. )

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

The part where I didn't know what they were saying was the part where I didn't know what they'd say about *other* sports. I just searched the thread for "ghost", "runner", and "three-on-three" and the only hits were in your post right there.  There was one other hit on "baseball" but that post agreed with me (Lash in post 188, seconded by thescarecrow in the next post.) So I'd never seen a dissenting opinion until now, and therefore thought I was bringing something new to the discussion by addressing it.

Spyder, that's interesting that you think I and the guys at my work who play basketball at lunch are not really playing basketball, even though it's 5-on-5 and we play by all NBA rules except we don't call 3 seconds and don't shoot free throws. I disagree that what we're playing is "street ball", but won't try to change your mind.

(But I *know* we're not playing AND1, because we don't allow traveling or carrying the ball. )

Just busting your chops, Bill. If you guys were playing AND1, I would demand a video of your best 720°-between-the-legs dunk asap.

At the end of the day I just keep it simple, for myself, by playing by all of the rules to the best of my ability - which is often by the book because I rarely ever have a questionable ruling or situation come up in my round. For me it's typically a scenario of playing a provisional, which I immediately do under the rules so as to rule out any interference of the pace of play.

This argument will never stop though and you (not Bill specifically, but "you" as in those taking the stance that bending the rules is still Golf) will never change anyone's mind.

I still don't like the idea of the breakfast ball though.. and would never venture to defend it, or argue the "grey area" in the rules to justify it.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Lash

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

You just said "I don't know what the other side is saying" and then in the next sentence said exactly what they're saying.

They do. It's been covered. They've said pickup games of baseball with ghost runners isn't actually "baseball" and three-on-three is not basketball, etc. Little League is still baseball because they have different rules at that level, so they're following those amended rules, and so on.

It keeps being brought up because, frankly, that is a stupid and wrong way of thinking.

I said it in another thread...but the CFL still plays football when a receiver leaves before the ball is snapped, the AL still plays baseball when they use a DH, and the international leagues still play basketball with a different shaped lane and 3-point line. To say scrambling or some other variation is not golf is just being stubborn and obtuse. That's why it keeps being brought up, because people keep making that statement.

If you want to be technical, the CFL doesn't play "football".  They play CFL Football under CFL Rules.  And the NFL plays under the NFL Rules.  And college teams play under NCAA Rules.  Do you get a theme here? They all play under a regulated and documented set of official rules , right down to Pop Warner Football.  When I was a kid we often played "football" 3 on 3.  We had no official rules, we just played for fun.  If we made any scoring milestones, would they have any validity in the world of football at any level?  Of course not.

Golf doesn't exist at those different levels.  One set of rules governs all play at all levels.  Playing by the rules doesn't involve any complex infrastructure, so the only reason for not playing by the rules is that you choose not to.  When a group of golfers plays by their own rules for fun it's similar to a pick-up game of "football", or sandlot "baseball".  They aren't playing by any real set of rules, they are just making it up as they go.  To say that any golf achievements made under those conditions are valid against a game as played by the rules is no different from trying to argue that 12 year old Jimmy is the football scoring record holder since he scored 12 touchdowns in one game playing 4 on 4 at the city park.  Records made by players under NCAA rules don't hold any water in the NFL because they play by different rules.

Anyone can play the game of golf any way they want within reason and have fun, and keep coming back because golf is fun.  But they simply can't compare notes or achievements with a player who plays by the rules because they are measuring with a different standard.

[Lash]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If you want to be technical, the CFL doesn't play "football".  They play CFL Football under CFL Rules.  And the NFL plays under the NFL Rules.  And college teams play under NCAA Rules.  Do you get a theme here?  They all play under a regulated and documented set of official rules, right down to Pop Warner Football.  When I was a kid we often played "football" 3 on 3.  We had no official rules, we just played for fun.  If we made any scoring milestones, would they have any validity in the world of football at any level?  Of course not.

Golf doesn't exist at those different levels.  One set of rules governs all play at all levels.  Playing by the rules doesn't involve any complex infrastructure, so the only reason for not playing by the rules is that you choose not to.  When a group of golfers plays by their own rules for fun it's similar to a pick-up game of "football", or sandlot "baseball".  They aren't playing by any real set of rules, they are just making it up as they go.  To say that any golf achievements made under those conditions are valid against a game as played by the rules is no different from trying to argue that 12 year old Jimmy is the football scoring record holder since he scored 12 touchdowns in one game playing 4 on 4 at the city park.  Records made by players under NCAA rules don't hold any water in the NFL because they play by different rules.

Anyone can play the game of golf any way they want within reason and have fun and keep coming back because it is fun.  But they simply can't compare notes or achievements with a player who plays by the rules because they are measuring with a different standard.

A better comparison, especially to scrambling, would be the DH in baseball. They don't play by the rules of baseball as originally intended, or even as the other half of MLB teams play. But their pitching accomplishments are regarded the same anyway.

But regardless of that, I didn't say anything about making comparisons of accomplishments. I'm just saying, as you just said as well, that you can play "football" without playing NFL football and you can play golf without playing every rule to the tee. It's still "golf", and saying otherwise is just pretentious arguing for the sake of arguing and the sake of trying to be right.

[Yukari]

Breakfast ball annoys the hell out of me when I am waiting behind a group that does that.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If you want to be technical, the CFL doesn't play "football".  They play CFL Football under CFL Rules.  And the NFL plays under the NFL Rules.  And college teams play under NCAA Rules.  Do you get a theme here?  They all play under a regulated and documented set of official rules, right down to Pop Warner Football.  When I was a kid we often played "football" 3 on 3.  We had no official rules, we just played for fun.  If we made any scoring milestones, would they have any validity in the world of football at any level?  Of course not.

Right, except ... wrong.  I doubt you will find anybody in the world (outside of this forum) who would NOT call the game the CFL plays "football."  Nobody goes around specifying what rules they are using in order to qualify the game they are playing.  Certainly the games are all different, however, they are ALL football.

"Did you guys see that football game the other day?!?!?!  Actually, sorry, it wasn't technically football, but did you see that CFL game the other day that kinda, sorta resembled football?!?!?"  I mean, short of this forum ... who talks like that?

You are right because IF people made these anal (and obtuse - good word Lash) distinctions in all of those other sports, then there would be no qualms here.  But they don't.  All forms of football are football, all forms of baseball are baseball, and all forms of basketball are basketball.  And that's true with everybody everywhere ... except in the arguments made on this forum.

I get that people who play by their own rules shouldn't get to compare themselves against others.  It would be like somebody telling me they beat my high score in bowling without telling me that they used the bumpers.  But I don't need to go around telling anybody who will listen that people who bowl with bumpers aren't bowling.  It's just unnecessary ... and a little bit demeaning.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Right, except ... wrong.  I doubt you will find anybody in the world (outside of this forum) who would NOT call the game the CFL plays "football."  Nobody goes around specifying what rules they are using in order to qualify the game they are playing.  Certainly the games are all different, however, they are ALL football.

"Did you guys see that football game the other day?!?!?!  Actually, sorry, it wasn't technically football, but did you see that CFL game the other day that kinda, sorta resembled football?!?!?"  I mean, short of this forum ... who talks like that?

You are right because IF people made these anal (and obtuse - good word Lash) distinctions in all of those other sports, then there would be no qualms here.  But they don't.  All forms of football are football, all forms of baseball are baseball, and all forms of basketball are basketball.  And that's true with everybody everywhere ... except in the arguments made on this forum.

I get that people who play by their own rules shouldn't get to compare themselves against others.  It would be like somebody telling me they beat my high score in bowling without telling me that they used the bumpers.  But I don't need to go around telling anybody who will listen that people who bowl with bumpers aren't bowling.  It's just unnecessary ... and a little bit demeaning.

I see what you are saying here, but I am also slightly confused. No one came out and said "Shut up, you're not playing 100% by the book and therefore you are not playing Golf!". I think everyone can level at some point and just say that it is golf that is being played. I do see your point in that it is a bit demeaning to some when people call them out and say "You're playing a variation of the game." as well.

I think this is really only thrown around when people are discussing things like scores or achievements, because it is the only time that the argument is really relevant. For example, somebody's ace on a mulligan isn't really an ace. It may be to them and congratulations are in order, regardless. However, don't tell anyone "Hey, I had an ace too!" because... well, no.. you didn't. You had a par from the tee...

Fourputt and those with the similar stance are more or less using this distinction as I pointed out above. I don't see these guys trolling around and calling people out though.

The only time I see the phrase "...that's not golf" is when I read a "What do you think about mulligans and how many do you use per round?", or "What is your opinion on the Breakfast Ball?", or "Stupid Scramble Rules!" threads.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Spyder

I see what you are saying here, but I am also slightly confused. No one came out and said "Shut up, you're not playing 100% by the book and therefore you are not playing Golf!".

I think this is really only thrown around when people are discussing things like scores or achievements, because it is the only time that the argument is really relevant. For example, somebody's ace on a mulligan isn't really an ace. It may be to them and congratulations are in order, regardless. However, don't tell anyone "Hey, I had an ace too!" because... well, no.. you didn't. You had a par from the tee...

Fourputt and those with the similar stance are more or less using this distinction as I pointed out above. I don't see these guys trolling around and calling people out though.

The only time I see the phrase "...that's not golf" is when I read a "What do you think about mulligans and how many do you use per round?", or "What is your opinion on the Breakfast Ball?", or "Stupid Scramble Rules!" threads.

Yeah, that's fair.  I also think there might be a slight disconnect and we are probably arguing past each other a little bit because when fourputt says or thinks that, maybe he's just imagining the guys who take mulligans, fluff lies, kick balls out from behind trees, take 4' gimmes, then go on the brag about their 79.  (When had they actually played by the rules and been honest, it's probably over 90)

Whereas, when I hear that argument, I hear it on behalf of guys who, for all intents and purposes, play the game the right way, but don't follow the rules 100.0000% (which I believe, is almost all golfers out there).  Myself, for example.  When I am playing casual rounds ... I will take a gimme from under a foot sometimes.  If I hit a good chip to a couple of inches and others are still off the green, I will either pick it up, or sometimes tap it in with the flagstick in.  If I unexpectedly lose a ball, I'm not going back to re-tee.  I don't always hold my arm perfectly straight at shoulder height when dropping out of a hazard.  I estimate 2 clublengths.  I can also sometimes get careless and bump the ball with my putter on the green and make it wobble, but I don't ever care to try and give myself a penalty stroke.  And I have a legitimate handicap and anybody who suggests otherwise is A) wrong, and B) frankly, just being kind of a jerk.

Like I said, it's possible (likely) that fourputt is only referring to group A above, but as a card carrying member of group B, I can find myself taking offense to anybody who utters, without qualification, statements like "If you aren't playing 100% by the rules, then you aren't playing golf."

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Spyder

I see what you are saying here, but I am also slightly confused. No one came out and said "Shut up, you're not playing 100% by the book and therefore you are not playing Golf!"...

Well that's how I interpreted this, which was the only reason I started posting in this thread again:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodastra

If you are up you can grant a fairway "do-over", which must be returned if you go down..on request.

What does this mean? I don't understand.

It means that he plays a game that sort of looks like golf, but fails to meet the definition.  I read it as if you are ahead, you can give your opponent a mulligan out of the goodness of your heart, but if he subsequently moves ahead in the match at some point, he is required to return the favor.  Not surprised you didn't quite get it as it's a new one on me too.  Guys like us who play by the real rules often don't learn these odd rules setups.

...unless I'm misinterpreting Fourputt, which is certainly possible.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Lash

I said it in another thread...but the CFL still plays football when a receiver leaves before the ball is snapped, the AL still plays baseball when they use a DH, and the international leagues still play basketball with a different shaped lane and 3-point line. To say scrambling or some other variation is not golf is just being stubborn and obtuse. That's why it keeps being brought up, because people keep making that statement.

They're playing CFL football, yes, which is sometimes abbreviated to "football." They're playing under a complete set of rules. CFL rules.

Scrambles are not golf because they are not contested under the Rules of Golf.

I'm finding it difficult to believe that not everyone knows exactly what the person means when they say "that isn't golf."

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I just searched the thread for "ghost", "runner", and "three-on-three" and the only hits were in your post right there.

It was within the last month or so. I don't know what to tell ya. :) It's here somewhere. This stupid "it isn't golf" discussion's come up a lot lately.

Originally Posted by Lash

A better comparison, especially to scrambling, would be the DH in baseball. They don't play by the rules of baseball as originally intended, or even as the other half of MLB teams play. But their pitching accomplishments are regarded the same anyway.

You call the opinions of others "stupid" and "wrong" and then you post THAT?!?! They're playing under the rules. 100% under the rules. The game of golf doesn't play under the original rules either.

Originally Posted by Lash

But regardless of that, I didn't say anything about making comparisons of accomplishments. I'm just saying, as you just said as well, that you can play "football" without playing NFL football and you can play golf without playing every rule to the tee. It's still "golf", and saying otherwise is just pretentious arguing for the sake of arguing and the sake of trying to be right.

Nope. Again, you know darn well that when someone says "that's not golf" what they're saying is that "that's not golf following the existing rules 100%." And if you didn't know it, you do now. So good - we can all stop wasting each other's time, right?

Originally Posted by Spyder

I think this is really only thrown around when people are discussing things like scores or achievements, because it is the only time that the argument is really relevant. For example, somebody's ace on a mulligan isn't really an ace. It may be to them and congratulations are in order, regardless. However, don't tell anyone "Hey, I had an ace too!" because... well, no.. you didn't. You had a par from the tee...

Fourputt and those with the similar stance are more or less using this distinction as I pointed out above. I don't see these guys trolling around and calling people out though.

The only time I see the phrase "...that's not golf" is when I read a "What do you think about mulligans and how many do you use per round?", or "What is your opinion on the Breakfast Ball?", or "Stupid Scramble Rules!" threads.

Uh hmmmm.

I couldn't care less what people do on the golf course. Fourputt will tell you that he likely calls everyone out there golfers who are golfing.

But when it comes to the situations like Spyder just said, the phrase "that's not really golf" simply means "you weren't playing under the rules."

There, I've made it all very simple.

[Lash]

Originally Posted by iacas

They're playing CFL football, yes, which is sometimes abbreviated to "football." They're playing under a complete set of rules. CFL rules.

Scrambles are not golf because they are not contested under the Rules of Golf.

I'm finding it difficult to believe that not everyone knows exactly what the person means when they say "that isn't golf."

It was within the last month or so. I don't know what to tell ya. :) It's here somewhere. This stupid "it isn't golf" discussion's come up a lot lately.

You call the opinions of others "stupid" and "wrong" and then you post THAT?!?! They're playing under the rules. 100% under the rules. The game of golf doesn't play under the original rules either.

Nope. Again, you know darn well that when someone says "that's not golf" what they're saying is that "that's not golf following the existing rules 100%." And if you didn't know it, you do now. So good - we can all stop wasting each other's time, right?

Uh hmmmm.

I couldn't care less what people do on the golf course. Fourputt will tell you that he likely calls everyone out there golfers who are golfing.

But when it comes to the situations like Spyder just said, the phrase "that's not really golf" simply means "you weren't playing under the rules."

There, I've made it all very simple.

You keep saying that, but I really don't know how you know Fourputt's intentions when he has never..that I have seen...stated that is what he means. He has been quite clear that people are not playing golf, and that is an obtuse and demeaning statement.

If you have a problem with this discussion coming up so often, you should ask those who keep using that phrase to do a better job of expressing themselves, because clearly they are not saying what they mean at all...if you are correct with your guess as to what they mean.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Lash

You keep saying that, but I really don't know how you know Fourputt's intentions when he has never..that I have seen...stated that is what he means. He has been quite clear that people are not playing golf, and that is an obtuse and demeaning statement.

If you have a problem with this discussion coming up so often, you should ask those who keep using that phrase to do a better job of expressing themselves, because clearly they are not saying what they mean at all...if you are correct with your guess as to what they mean.

Let's not take what I originally posted out of context. I stated what my understanding of Fourputt's comments were, because I believe he has enough common sense to not care what others do on the golf course. However, those people who bring up achievements and score will be called out accordingly if they're not playing under the rules. Those who post handicaps on this site, or other sites, or turned in and signed when they did not play by the rules of golf broke the rules of golf, and therefore did not actually play golf as it is intended to be played under the rules of the game.

I apologize to Fourputt for speaking on his behalf as well, if that's how others took that, but it was my translation to put a more elaborate expression on the phrase "...that's not golf". I, like Erik, am kind of confused that people are still debating what this phrase means.

It's very elementary...if you break the rules of golf, you are not playing the game as it is intended to be played. For example, if you deal 3 cards rather than 2 cards to each player in Texas Hold'em, you are not playing Texas Hold'em anymore. It's really as easy as that..

It may seem demeaning to a weekend golfer who boasts in their club, the clubhouse where they played, or on a public forum such as TST, about what they shot to be shot down with "But you didn't play by the rules...".

So, the simple solution is... play the game how you want to play it because nobody else cares. Those who follow the rules, such as myself and many others, don't care what you do. We're all obviously golfers as well. Just don't talk about your handicap or your achievements in terms of score when you're playing "breakfast balls" and "mulligans". It's a fair trade-off....