What is your opinion on the "Breakfast Ball"?

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by saltman

For the life of me I cannot understand why people get so bent out of shape about the legitimacy of handicaps. If someone is cheating to get a better handicap, how does it hurt you?? In my 30 years of playing this game. There are 2 kinds of players that I despise playing with the most. The slow player and the pro wannabe rule nazi. I happen to play by the rules all the time, but frankly my game allows me to do so AND keep the pace of play because 98% of the time I don't have to deal with a "penalty" situation. For the 20+ handicappers, they have penalty scenarios on 50% of the holes depending on the course. I don't expect people to memorize the rules before stepping foot on the course or even before they begin keeping a handicap. For the sake of pace of play, I don't want them pulling out rulebooks constantly. I am not sure USGA does either. I think as people learn the game and learn the rules, their handicaps will become more legitimate. When I teach my son this game, I will first teach him ettiquette and pace of play. When tournament golf is on the horizon we will teach rules.

There is a big difference between people who break rules because they do not know the rule and people who break rules for "convenience".  Which is usually the convenience of writing down a smaller number than they deserve on the scorecard.  Like moving their ball from an unplayable lie but not adding the penalty stroke because the unplayable lie was a rock or a root.  Or dropping a ball when theirs is lost or OB and adding a stroke - giving themselves a one stroke gift.  Or the convenience of not embarrassing themselves by missing that 3 foot putt.  Need I go on?

[Perfect Slicer]

I don't take first tee mulligans (any more). When I started playing I would, because it was a common occurence to top one off the tee, and it was frustrating and embarrsing to have to walk ahead 20 paces to hit again with the first tee lineup watching. Once my skill level improved, I take mor epride in my score, and have also better understood that if I make a bad shot, I have to take my medicine and move on. The more I've played, the more I've realized that I'm just not good enough to get mad or frustrated with a bad shot. May seem kind of silly, but it makes me a much more relaxed golfer.

Funny story regarding mulligans. My wife and I took a trip up the California coast back in 2000, and stopped at Pebble Beach right after the US Open that year. We were eating lunch in the clubhouse overlooking the 1st tee, watching the folks tee off. There was a long line of carts and people around the tee. I think I would have been too intimidated to tee off. A guy tees one up, takes a mighty swing, and tops one about 15 yards up. He walked out to his ball, picked it up, went back to the tee and re-teed it. Took another mighty swing and topped it to the same spot. He started walking up to it and the starter came up to him, put his arm around the guy and pointed at the ball. The guy went back to his bag, took out another club, and hacked it out of the tall grass onto the edge of the fairway. We watched him top the next one up the fairway. I felt bad for the guy. What a way to start your (expensive) Pebble Beach experience.

[bplewis24]

Wish I could say I don't run into a penalty situation 98% of the time.  That's pretty good.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by turtleback

There is a big difference between people who break rules because they do not know the rule and people who break rules for "convenience".  Which is usually the convenience of writing down a smaller number than they deserve on the scorecard.  Like moving their ball from an unplayable lie but not adding the penalty stroke because the unplayable lie was a rock or a root.  Or dropping a ball when theirs is lost or OB and adding a stroke - giving themselves a one stroke gift.  Or the convenience of not embarrassing themselves by missing that 3 foot putt.  Need I go on?

Hmm.. not sure that you are really giving yourself a "one stroke gift" by dropping where you go OB or lost a ball and assessing the penalty. Typically when I hit one OB or lost one in the high rough it's much shorter distance than if I did go back and re-tee it and keep it in bounds. The only time I'll drop for an OB/lost ball is when I'm unable to go back and re-tee due to another group being on the tee or if I'm not keeping score and just practicing. I think stroke and distance is less penalty than stroke and dropping at the point the ball was lost 90% of the time.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

Hmm.. not sure that you are really giving yourself a "one stroke gift" by dropping where you go OB or lost a ball and assessing the penalty. Typically when I hit one OB or lost one in the high rough it's much shorter distance than if I did go back and re-tee it and keep in in bounds. The only time I'll drop for an OB/lost ball is when I'm unable to go back and re-tee due to another group being on the tee or if I'm not keeping score and just practicing. I think stroke and distance is less penalty than stroke and dropping at the point the ball was lost 90% of the time.

It actually is a one stroke gift though.  If you lose your ball, and for the sake of convenience you decide to drop where you think it went OB or became lost, the penalty would be stroke and distance, or two penalty strokes.  You would be hitting your fourth.  If you simply drop and add one penalty stroke, you'd be hitting your third shot (regardless of the location).

For comparison, if you hit one OB, go back and re-tee and stripe it down the middle of the fairway, you would then be hitting your approach shot as your fourth.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

It actually is a one stroke gift though.  If you lose your ball, and for the sake of convenience you decide to drop where you think it went OB or became lost, the penalty would be stroke and distance, or two penalty strokes.  You would be hitting your fourth.  If you simply drop and add one penalty stroke, you'd be hitting your third shot (regardless of the location).

For comparison, if you hit one OB, go back and re-tee and stripe it down the middle of the fairway, you would then be hitting your approach shot as your fourth.

If you re-tee/hit a provisional you are laying 4 in the fairway and not 3? That doesn't make sense, why are you double penalized? If you hit in the water on one, drop 2, hit 3. Why is it different for OB? That's really something I've never fully understood.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

If you re-tee/hit a provisional you are laying 4 in the fairway and not 3? That doesn't make sense, why are you double penalized? If you hit in the water on one, drop 2, hit 3. Why is it different for OB? That's really something I've never fully understood.

Laying 3, hitting 4 if you re-tee.  The double penalty I referred to is if you didn't hit a provisional and instead drop (for convenience, rather than going back to re-tee).  Then you take 2 penalty strokes at the drop point (stroke & distance), and you are also laying 3, hitting four (your tee shot, 2 penalty strokes).

With a lateral hazard, you can drop near the point of entry (I'm simplifying here), which sometimes can be nearly as far out as your actual drive length.  In that case, you could theoretically be laying 2, hitting 3 with a very manageable approach distance.  OB is a much harsher penalty because you effectively assess the penalty stroke at the tee box and replay from there, whereas with a lateral hazard you can assess the penalty stroke further up from the tee box and play from there.

So when you drop for the sake of convenience after losing the ball or going OB, it's often referred to as penalizing for "stroke & distance" (2 penalty strokes).  Or at least that's how my club refers to it.  So then you would drop, let's say, near the OB fence, and be laying 3, hitting 4.  If it was a lateral hazard instead, you could theoretically be laying 2, hitting 3.

In general, OB is meant to be a much harsher penalty in golf.  I guess because you're technically no longer on course property (most of the time).  In-course OB is another matter, and pisses me off.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Laying 3, hitting 4.

With a lateral hazard, you can drop at the point of entry, which sometimes can be nearly as far out as your actual drive length.  In that case, you could theoretically be laying 2, hitting 3 with a very manageable approach distance.  OB is a much harsher penalty because you effectively assess the penalty stroke at the tee box and replay from there, whereas with a lateral hazard you can assess the penalty stroke further up from the tee box and play from there.  So when you drop for the sake of convenience after losing the ball or going OB, it's often referred to as penalizing for "stroke & distance" (2 penalty strokes).  Or at least that's how my club refers to it.  So then you would drop, let's say, near the OB fence, and be laying 3, hitting 4.  If it was a lateral hazard instead, you could theoretically be laying 2, hitting 3.

I see how that is now. The way I do it isn't usually very beneficial anyway as I drop in the nasty stuff right by ob usually well back from where it went over or drop it in the long grass it was lost in, but I can see where the discrepancy is now at least. I'll start making sure I assess the 2 stroke instead of 1 if I have to do this in the future. This still doesn't really explain why you have to lose stroke and distance when hitting OB as opposed to hitting in the water, to me they should be dealt with the same. That's not to say that I'll ignore the rule and play it how I like, just that it doesn't seem "fair" especially with those shots that bounce and roll OB where it is very easy to determine the point of entry.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Perfect Slicer

I don't take first tee mulligans (any more). When I started playing I would, because it was a common occurence to top one off the tee, and it was frustrating and embarrsing to have to walk ahead 20 paces to hit again with the first tee lineup watching. Once my skill level improved, I take mor epride in my score, and have also better understood that if I make a bad shot, I have to take my medicine and move on. The more I've played, the more I've realized that I'm just not good enough to get mad or frustrated with a bad shot. May seem kind of silly, but it makes me a much more relaxed golfer.

Funny story regarding mulligans. My wife and I took a trip up the California coast back in 2000, and stopped at Pebble Beach right after the US Open that year. We were eating lunch in the clubhouse overlooking the 1st tee, watching the folks tee off. There was a long line of carts and people around the tee. I think I would have been too intimidated to tee off. A guy tees one up, takes a mighty swing, and tops one about 15 yards up. He walked out to his ball, picked it up, went back to the tee and re-teed it. Took another mighty swing and topped it to the same spot. He started walking up to it and the starter came up to him, put his arm around the guy and pointed at the ball. The guy went back to his bag, took out another club, and hacked it out of the tall grass onto the edge of the fairway. We watched him top the next one up the fairway. I felt bad for the guy. What a way to start your (expensive) Pebble Beach experience.

I was with my family doing the same thing about 5-6 years ago, having lunch there on the patio overlooking 18. There was a group of Asians who took at least 25 minutes to play the 18th hole. It was brutal to watch. The caddies eventually told a couple of the guys to pick up their ball because the group behind them was standing in the fairway for at least 10 minutes watching every topped ball and miscue.

I digress. Carry on.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

That's not to say that I'll ignore the rule and play it how I like, just that it doesn't seem "fair" especially with those shots that bounce and roll OB where it is very easy to determine the point of entry.

There have been threads about this before.  You're not the first person to be taken aback by the differentiation, but thems the rules as they stand right now.  When teeing off, I first make sure there is no risk of OB before deciding what my play is going to be.  It is one of the most penal physical mistakes one can make on the course.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

There have been threads about this before.  You're not the first person to be taken aback by the differentiation, but thems the rules as they stand right now.  When teeing off, I first make sure there is no risk of OB before deciding what my play is going to be.  It is one of the most penal physical mistakes one can make on the course.

Yep. I can get away with a lot of crappy shots and still post a decent score as long as I keep it in bounds . When I start going OB it's all over.

[geauxforbroke]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

That's not to say that I'll ignore the rule and play it how I like, just that it doesn't seem "fair" especially with those shots that bounce and roll OB where it is very easy to determine the point of entry.

Wouldn't it be the point of exit ?

[RickK]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeNut

Breakfast ball?

Haha... since when was this a golf term?   I've never in my life heard anyone refer to a 1st tee mulligan to a breakfast ball before.

Just sayin'....

This thread was the first time in 45 years of playing golf I had ever heard the 1st tee mulligan called that.

[saltman]

Originally Posted by saevel25

here's the thing, lets say you play a game, then you change half the rules, are you still playing that game?

For golfers, the whole point is to get better. The only way we do that is by a handicap. When people who play a VARIANT of golf, claim they are a handicap, sorry doesn't cut it. You pick up a putt from 3 feet, you don't take stroke and distance, you take a mulligan, what ever. Its not real golf. Its your golf. I'm not saying you can't play it, just don't say its the same as we play. By claiming a handicap, your saying your playing the same game, when your not. A game is played by rules. you change the rules, you change the game, its simple. No limit Texas Hold'm isn't the same as seven card stud. There both card games, but there different because the rules are different.

So you carry a legit 6.8 index and your ego is so fragile that you care about the legitimacy of a 25 handicapper?  I simply don't get it.  I think its arrogant and just childish to say they are playing a variant of golf.  By the time someone works their game down to even a mid-teen index they will have also grown to understand the rules much better.  I have taught a lot of people the game over the years.  I take pride in doing so without being judgmental and also keeping the pace of play to a reasonable standard.

Edit:  I didn't mean for this to sound unduly harsh.  I just think this talk of variants of golf is just silly season.  I also think those people that go out and practice on the course 4 out of 5 times they are playing and only record 1 score are likely more guilty of handicap manipulation than those that don't fully understand the rules of the game.  As a general rule I really don't like practicing on the course.  When I am on the course I don't want to take more divots or create more ball marks than necessary.

[SloverUT]

Originally Posted by saltman

So you carry a legit 6.8 index and your ego is so fragile that you care about the legitimacy of a 25 handicapper?  I simply don't get it.  I think its arrogant and just childish to say they are playing a variant of golf.  By the time someone works their game down to even a mid-teen index they will have also grown to understand the rules much better.  I have taught a lot of people the game over the years.  I take pride in doing so without being judgmental and also keeping the pace of play to a reasonable standard.

I certainly care about the legitimacy of anyone's handicap if they are playing in a league/tournament with me.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by saltman

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

here's the thing, lets say you play a game, then you change half the rules, are you still playing that game?

For golfers, the whole point is to get better. The only way we do that is by a handicap. When people who play a VARIANT of golf, claim they are a handicap, sorry doesn't cut it. You pick up a putt from 3 feet, you don't take stroke and distance, you take a mulligan, what ever. Its not real golf. Its your golf. I'm not saying you can't play it, just don't say its the same as we play. By claiming a handicap, your saying your playing the same game, when your not. A game is played by rules. you change the rules, you change the game, its simple. No limit Texas Hold'm isn't the same as seven card stud. There both card games, but there different because the rules are different.

So you carry a legit 6.8 index and your ego is so fragile that you care about the legitimacy of a 25 handicapper?  I simply don't get it.  I think its arrogant and just childish to say they are playing a variant of golf.  By the time someone works their game down to even a mid-teen index they will have also grown to understand the rules much better.  I have taught a lot of people the game over the years.  I take pride in doing so without being judgmental and also keeping the pace of play to a reasonable standard.

But they ARE playing a variant of golf.  Just as  a Scramble is a variant of golf.  If the game defined by the Rules of Golf is Golf, then anything which resembles it but not played by those rules is a variant.  That's not arrogant, it's just simple English.  Surely you wouldn't credit someone with a course record if he played the round while ignoring a half dozen rules?  If that's the case, then he must have been playing a variant, since if he had played by the rules, the record would count.

You seem to be the one with the problem about this.  If a 23 handicap wants to play by the real rules, who are you to say he isn't good enough to bother with it?

[saltman]

Originally Posted by SloverUT

I certainly care about the legitimacy of anyone's handicap if they are playing in a league/tournament with me.

I presume only if they somehow cheated their way to a worse handicap.  Sandbagging is different discussion.

[saltman]

I have no problem with a 23 handicapper playing by the rules UNLESS he takes 5.5 hours per round and I can't finish my round as a result.  Then you are darn right I have something to say about it because he/she just cost me money.

It's called recreational golf vs. tournament golf.