What is your opinion on the "Breakfast Ball"?

[flintcreek6412]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

When you hit your first stroke from the tee, you have started your round.  It doesn't matter what you call it.  I guess if you play from outside of the teeing ground, then you can call it practice.  Kind of hokey to me, but I don't really care as long as you aren't holding up my group as each of you plays 2 balls.   Once you play from the teeing ground your round as begun.

The phrase I put in bold is a key to my way of thinking.  For me, I don't say "more accurate than most", When I talk about a score or a round, I can say that my scores are accurate, with no qualifications.  Maybe one round in 10 I find myself in that quandary of having lost a ball when it should be in plain sight, and the course is too crowded to return to the previous spot.  This is very rare for me, as I am quick to play a provisional if there is any possible doubt.  When that happens, for handicap purposes I pick up and go by the handicap manual for unfinished holes.  If I'm also playing for score against my buddies, I will finish out the hole from there adding 2 penalty strokes.  Such scores will never be counted for anything but handicap and the game within my group.  I won't bring them up here  Even if I ultimately shoot a 70-something, it just doesn't matter, and I don't go about bragging on it.

Like you, I've had some widely varying scores on the same course.  In 1989 I shot a 73 while carrying a legitimate 16 handicap (it was the first time I ever broke 80, and it's still my personal best for my home course).  It happened during the 3rd round of the club championship and was played completely under the rules ans I do use it a little bit for bragging rights.  As a player wh has never carried an index lower than 9.6, I feel that shooting a 73 is a significant accomplishment.  In 1991, in the first round of the club championship, carrying a legitimate 10 handicap, I shot a 104.   I not ashamed to mention that one either, although not in the same way.

Here is my main gripe with the players who fudge their scores with cheap drops and foot wedges and then make excuses, or worse don't make excuses and still brag about those scores.  I once stood on the 18th tee at 1 under par.  I hooked my tee shot close to the OB stakes.  I played a provisional ball rather poorly, then went up to find that my ball was indeed out of bounds.  I wound up making a triple on the hole and didn't even tie that 73.  Had I played it as most of the posters on this board feel is acceptable, I'd have just dropped up by where it was OB and played in with a one stroke penalty.  Because that position would have actually been better than where my provisional ball was, I'd have probably made a bogey, and shot even par for the only time in my life.  However, I'd never have been able to talk about it, because it would never really have happened.  I played by the rules, scored a 74, and while that last hole left a bad taste in my mouth, 74 is still pretty good for a 10 handicap.

I really don't care how anyone plays their game or if they post bogus handicap rounds because it's only hurting them if they have to compete and have an artificially lowered HC.  But when you come on here and tell people they are breaking rules yet state yourself that 10% of your rounds, 2 of your 20 posted HC are not legit it gives me pause to scratch my head.....Again, I don't care but how can you simply refer to that hole as unplayed?  Based upon your HC you would likely enter either par or bogey depending on the hole difficulty. Had you rehit you'd already be down 2 strokes and likely double bogey or worse if you lost a second.

I'm not condemning your because I don't care.  But those holier than thou who have never broke a rule on here preaching to everyone about the rules I'd love to watch them play.  Have they never played alone and stuck it 1" from the cup at 100yrd out and took it as a gimme?  Or did they tap it in with the flag still in?  Almost everyone has.  Why pull a pin to tap in a 1" putt in recreational play, even if it's to post a HC?  Oh yea, because the rules say you must.  When I watch lateral drops or relief drops on TV and they mark with tees and 2 clubs.....is that the rigid application of the rule or can you just drop it where you know it's a club length from where it entered?  I really don't know that one but I've never on a course seen anyone mark with tees and 2 club lengths.  They just drop where they safely know it's no closer and within 2 clubs.  And God forbid you take a demo driver on the course to try out with your own ball and not range balls.  Do you ditch your regular driver hoping you will play it well for 14 holes with the demo or do you do what most do....have 15 clubs for that one round?

Tournament play is a whole other matter but recreational play is likely fudged a little by everyone.   I don't take 2 off the 1st when posting for HC because I believe it could be an added advantage to enhance a score but the others I have to look at and see if there is an added advantage by fudging the rule.  1" tap in with flag in is hard to show an advantage IMO.  But I guess a rule is a rule.  I'll make sure my guys pull over and write tickets for everyone driving 56 in a 55 because that's the law by God.  Oh?  I can fudge that one?  LOL

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

When you hit your first stroke from the tee, you have started your round.  It doesn't matter what you call it.

But how do you come to that conclusion? I don't see that wording or anything like it anywhere in the rules  Is there a rule or decision you are referencing?

Originally Posted by flintcreek6412

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Maybe one round in 10 I find myself in that quandary of having lost a ball when it should be in plain sight, and the course is too crowded to return to the previous spot.  This is very rare for me, as I am quick to play a provisional if there is any possible doubt.  When that happens, for handicap purposes I pick up and go by the handicap manual for unfinished holes.

I really don't care how anyone plays their game or if they post bogus handicap rounds because it's only hurting them if they have to compete and have an artificially lowered HC.  But when you come on here and tell people they are breaking rules yet state yourself that 10% of your rounds, 2 of your 20 posted HC are not legit it gives me pause to scratch my head.....Again, I don't care but how can you simply refer to that hole as unplayed?  Based upon your HC you would likely enter either par or bogey depending on the hole difficulty. Had you rehit you'd already be down 2 strokes and likely double bogey or worse if you lost a second.

Note the wording Fourputt used: It's an unfinished hole, not an unplayed hole. He's taking the number of strokes he's currently lying, including any penalties, and adding the most likely number of strokes it would take for him to hole out. That's the prescribed method per the handicap manual.

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flintcreek6412

I really don't care how anyone plays their game or if they post bogus handicap rounds because it's only hurting them if they have to compete and have an artificially lowered HC.  But when you come on here and tell people they are breaking rules yet state yourself that 10% of your rounds, 2 of your 20 posted HC are not legit it gives me pause to scratch my head .....Again, I don't care but how can you simply refer to that hole as unplayed?  Based upon your HC you would likely enter either par or bogey depending on the hole difficulty. Had you rehit you'd already be down 2 strokes and likely double bogey or worse if you lost a second.

Unfortunately the reason you are scratching your head is that you don't seem to know the rules for posting scores for handicap purposes.  I would bet a pretty fair piece of change that FourPutt does know those rules and applies them correctly.  So no, 10% of his scores are not of questionable legitimacy.  When you do what the Handicap rules tell you to do, even in dealing with a rare case where following the Rules of Golf was impracticable, then you are following the handicap rules.

Also note that the score under this handicap rule is the score for posting, not the score for the round,  The score for the round is DQ.

Quote:

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Principles of The Rules of Golf

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the principles of the Rules of Golf (except for preferred lies ), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

You may not like that this is the rule, but it is, and following it results in a score that is perfectly acceptable (indeed mandatory) for posting.  But again, if you use this rule it is for posting only, you don't have a real score for the round.

[trackster]

Originally Posted by flintcreek6412

I'm not condemning your because I don't care.  But those holier than thou who have never broke a rule on here preaching to everyone about the rules I'd love to watch them play.  Have they never played alone and stuck it 1" from the cup at 100yrd out and took it as a gimme?  Or did they tap it in with the flag still in?  Almost everyone has.  Why pull a pin to tap in a 1" putt in recreational play, even if it's to post a HC?  Oh yea, because the rules say you must.  When I watch lateral drops or relief drops on TV and they mark with tees and 2 clubs.....is that the rigid application of the rule or can you just drop it where you know it's a club length from where it entered?  I really don't know that one but I've never on a course seen anyone mark with tees and 2 club lengths.  They just drop where they safely know it's no closer and within 2 clubs.  And God forbid you take a demo driver on the course to try out with your own ball and not range balls.  Do you ditch your regular driver hoping you will play it well for 14 holes with the demo or do you do what most do....have 15 clubs for that one round?

And what would you say to someone who doesn't do anything that you have mentioned.  I played the other day and hit one to about a foot.  As I am walking to my ball the sprinklers went off.  I ran up before the sprinklers were going to get me wet thinking that I could hit a quick tap in.  I ran up and took a quick putt and booted it and had to two putt from one foot.  If the sprinkler had been off I would make that putt 100% of the time,  I didn't give my self the benefit of the doubt and give my self a one putt.  I counted the strokes that it took to get the ball in the hole.  Playing by the rules is not that hard.  And if you do break the rules, the correct scoring modifications are easy to follow as well.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The phrase I put in bold is a key to my way of thinking.  For me, I don't say "more accurate than most", When I talk about a score or a round, I can say that my scores are accurate, with no qualifications.  Maybe one round in 10 I find myself in that quandary of having lost a ball when it should be in plain sight, and the course is too crowded to return to the previous spot.  This is very rare for me, as I am quick to play a provisional if there is any possible doubt.  When that happens, for handicap purposes I pick up and go by the handicap manual for unfinished holes.  If I'm also playing for score against my buddies, I will finish out the hole from there adding 2 penalty strokes.  Such scores will never be counted for anything but handicap and the game within my group.  I won't bring them up here  Even if I ultimately shoot a 70-something, it just doesn't matter, and I don't go about bragging on it.

In the thread I made about fast play vs. following rules you wouldn't pick a side and voted for both.  After reading this paragraph I would say that you are more a fan of the fast play.  If you were for following the rules you would have no problem going back and playing from previous spots.  Who cares if the group behind you doesn't like it.  The rules win out for me.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by flintcreek6412

I really don't care how anyone plays their game or if they post bogus handicap rounds because it's only hurting them if they have to compete and have an artificially lowered HC.  But when you come on here and tell people they are breaking rules yet state yourself that 10% of your rounds, 2 of your 20 posted HC are not legit it gives me pause to scratch my head.....Again, I don't care but how can you simply refer to that hole as unplayed?  Based upon your HC you would likely enter either par or bogey depending on the hole difficulty. Had you rehit you'd already be down 2 strokes and likely double bogey or worse if you lost a second.

I'm not condemning your because I don't care.  But those holier than thou who have never broke a rule on here preaching to everyone about the rules I'd love to watch them play.  Have they never played alone and stuck it 1" from the cup at 100yrd out and took it as a gimme?  Or did they tap it in with the flag still in?  Almost everyone has.  Why pull a pin to tap in a 1" putt in recreational play, even if it's to post a HC?  Oh yea, because the rules say you must.  When I watch lateral drops or relief drops on TV and they mark with tees and 2 clubs.....is that the rigid application of the rule or can you just drop it where you know it's a club length from where it entered?  I really don't know that one but I've never on a course seen anyone mark with tees and 2 club lengths.  They just drop where they safely know it's no closer and within 2 clubs.  And God forbid you take a demo driver on the course to try out with your own ball and not range balls.  Do you ditch your regular driver hoping you will play it well for 14 holes with the demo or do you do what most do....have 15 clubs for that one round?

Tournament play is a whole other matter but recreational play is likely fudged a little by everyone.   I don't take 2 off the 1st when posting for HC because I believe it could be an added advantage to enhance a score but the others I have to look at and see if there is an added advantage by fudging the rule.  1" tap in with flag in is hard to show an advantage IMO.  But I guess a rule is a rule.  I'll make sure my guys pull over and write tickets for everyone driving 56 in a 55 because that's the law by God.  Oh?  I can fudge that one?  LOL

I commend the effort there flintcreek, but I can be the first to tell you that its a lost cause.  (I know because I've tried to make this exact argument several times) ;)

Originally Posted by trackster

And what would you say to someone who doesn't do anything that you have mentioned.  I played the other day and hit one to about a foot.  As I am walking to my ball the sprinklers went off.  I ran up before the sprinklers were going to get me wet thinking that I could hit a quick tap in.  I ran up and took a quick putt and booted it and had to two putt from one foot.  If the sprinkler had been off I would make that putt 100% of the time,  I didn't give my self the benefit of the doubt and give my self a one putt.  I counted the strokes that it took to get the ball in the hole.  Playing by the rules is not that hard.  And if you do break the rules, the correct scoring modifications are easy to follow as well.

In the thread I made about fast play vs. following rules you wouldn't pick a side and voted for both.  After reading this paragraph I would say that you are more a fan of the fast play.  If you were for following the rules you would have no problem going back and playing from previous spots.  Who cares if the group behind you doesn't like it.  The rules win out for me.

There's no agreeing on this stuff.  What would I say to somebody who rushes a 12" putt and misses - solely because the sprinklers are about to get him wet - and counts it?  Easy.  I'd call him a sandbagger.  (Actually no, that's harsh ... I would consider that particular action a bit on the sandbagging side of things.)  Just like you would call somebody who didn't count it (me, I admit it) a vanity capper.  So be it.  We're all just going to have to agree to disagree.

Just consider this.  If a handicap is supposed to measure your potential score, and, in your own words, its a putt you'd make 100% of the time were it not for the sprinklers, and you know damn well you're never going to play in a tournament with sprinklers going on and off at random, how do you justify that as being an accurate measure of your potential?

(It's a rhetorical question that you need'nt actually answer because I know what you will all say ... "it's the rules."  That's fine.  Whatever.  Again, agree to disagree)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trackster

Quote:

Originally Posted by flintcreek6412

I'm not condemning your because I don't care.  But those holier than thou who have never broke a rule on here preaching to everyone about the rules I'd love to watch them play.  Have they never played alone and stuck it 1" from the cup at 100yrd out and took it as a gimme?  Or did they tap it in with the flag still in?  Almost everyone has.  Why pull a pin to tap in a 1" putt in recreational play, even if it's to post a HC?  Oh yea, because the rules say you must.  When I watch lateral drops or relief drops on TV and they mark with tees and 2 clubs.....is that the rigid application of the rule or can you just drop it where you know it's a club length from where it entered?  I really don't know that one but I've never on a course seen anyone mark with tees and 2 club lengths.  They just drop where they safely know it's no closer and within 2 clubs.  And God forbid you take a demo driver on the course to try out with your own ball and not range balls.  Do you ditch your regular driver hoping you will play it well for 14 holes with the demo or do you do what most do....have 15 clubs for that one round?

And what would you say to someone who doesn't do anything that you have mentioned.  I played the other day and hit one to about a foot.  As I am walking to my ball the sprinklers went off.  I ran up before the sprinklers were going to get me wet thinking that I could hit a quick tap in.  I ran up and took a quick putt and booted it and had to two putt from one foot.  If the sprinkler had been off I would make that putt 100% of the time,  I didn't give my self the benefit of the doubt and give my self a one putt.  I counted the strokes that it took to get the ball in the hole.  Playing by the rules is not that hard.  And if you do break the rules, the correct scoring modifications are easy to follow as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The phrase I put in bold is a key to my way of thinking.  For me, I don't say "more accurate than most", When I talk about a score or a round, I can say that my scores are accurate, with no qualifications . Maybe one round in 10 I find myself in that quandary of having lost a ball when it should be in plain sight, and the course is too crowded to return to the previous spot.  This is very rare for me, as I am quick to play a provisional if there is any possible doubt.  When that happens, for handicap purposes I pick up and go by the handicap manual for unfinished holes.  If I'm also playing for score against my buddies, I will finish out the hole from there adding 2 penalty strokes.  Such scores will never be counted for anything but handicap and the game within my group.  I won't bring them up here  Even if I ultimately shoot a 70-something, it just doesn't matter, and I don't go about bragging on it.

In the thread I made about fast play vs. following rules you wouldn't pick a side and voted for both.  After reading this paragraph I would say that you are more a fan of the fast play.  If you were for following the rules you would have no problem going back and playing from previous spots .  Who cares if the group behind you doesn't like it.  The rules win out for me.

Look.  I'm not an idiot and I've never said that you can't drop and play when the course is full and returning to the previous spot is impossible.  I have done and will the full stroke and distance when it isn't a problem for pace of play.  I t's rare that I even need to, because when I hit a ball in a questionable spot, I play a provisional - always.  I play more provisional balls than anybody I know.  My earlier post of 1 out of 10 was a wild guess because it's something I've never tried to track.  I do it so rarely that it just doesn't count against handicap or anything else.

To flintcreek smartass:  When I'm playing a casual round with no wager or money on the line, then I pick up and don't finish the hole.  Is that okay with you?  I can do that as often as I need to and still post the most likely score for handicap.  Look it up.  Or better yet, here it is:

Quote:

4-1. Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the most likely score . The most likely score may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit, defined in Section 4-3 . This most likely score should be preceded by an "X." (See Decision 4-1/1 .)

There is no limit to the number of unfinished holes a player may have in a round, provided that failure to finish is not for the purpose of handicap manipulation.

If I play out the hole because I'm in a skins or other wagering game, then I'll post par plus handicap, or I won't post the score at all because you are not allowed to post a score which is not acceptable under the handicap rules.  Happier now?

[trackster]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I commend the effort there flintcreek, but I can be the first to tell you that its a lost cause.  (I know because I've tried to make this exact argument several times) ;)

There's no agreeing on this stuff.  What would I say to somebody who rushes a 12" putt and misses - solely because the sprinklers are about to get him wet - and counts it?  Easy.  I'd call him a sandbagger.  (Actually no, that's harsh ... I would consider that particular action a bit on the sandbagging side of things.)  Just like you would call somebody who didn't count it (me, I admit it) a vanity capper.  So be it.  We're all just going to have to agree to disagree.

Just consider this.  If a handicap is supposed to measure your potential score, and, in your own words, its a putt you'd make 100% of the time were it not for the sprinklers, and you know damn well you're never going to play in a tournament with sprinklers going on and off at random, how do you justify that as being an accurate measure of your potential?

(It's a rhetorical question that you need'nt actually answer because I know what you will all say ... "it's the rules."  That's fine.  Whatever.  Again, agree to disagree)

So you consider someone who plays out a hole by the rules of golf a bit of a sandbagger?   That's the beauty of a handicap, one or two erroneous situations isn't going to affect the overall product.  I use to be are arguer for the more liberal interpretation of the rules, but I have realized that you will never win an argument when your stance is a breach of the rules.  Saying "it's the rules" is the most concrete answer you can give, so you really have no merit in "disagreeing."

[RickK]

I had never heard the term "breakfast ball" until yesterday.  I play at 2 different clubs and pretty much alternate Saturdays between the 2.  At one, I play with a bunch of guys who are simply in it for the fun.  Nothing serious and over half the group will take the breakfast ball because we tee off early and no one goes to the range.  I do my best to put my ball in play and not hit a second ball.

The other club I play at, on Saturday mornings the MGA group has a game going and it is all serious.  Only reason you hit a second ball of the tee there is if your first one is OB or possibly OB...then it is a provisional.

[trackster]

Originally Posted by RickK

I had never heard the term "breakfast ball" until yesterday.  I play at 2 different clubs and pretty much alternate Saturdays between the 2.  At one, I play with a bunch of guys who are simply in it for the fun.  Nothing serious and over half the group will take the breakfast ball because we tee off early and no one goes to the range.  I do my best to put my ball in play and not hit a second ball.

The other club I play at, on Saturday mornings the MGA group has a game going and it is all serious.  Only reason you hit a second ball of the tee there is if your first one is OB or possibly OB...then it is a provisional.

This seems to be a qualifier for the "BB."  But I am sure there are plenty out there who will hit two of the tee even after ranging.  2 off the first tee is by far the norm at my home course  Idk, i never range and I seem to have no problem off the first tee.  I am a college student so I might be a little more limber than the average fellow.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by trackster

That's the beauty of a handicap, one or two erroneous situations isn't going to affect the overall product.

This is the key here.  And this is why I have no problem with people doing what you did, or doing what fourputt does (skipping a hole occasionally when he loses a ball) or what a lot of other people on here do (fudge rules occasionally in different ways; gimmes, leaving flagstick in, dropping next to an OB rather than trekking back, etc, etc) and I still consider them golfers and I still consider their handicaps valid.

People who get all righteous in these types of threads (general, not you specifically) and say things like "your handicap is meaningless" or "don't call what you play golf" drive me up a wall.  (As anybody who's been here any length of time can attest to, because no matter how hard I try to stay out of them, I seem to get drawn in every time, lol)  As far as being "an accurate representation of your potential;" how, exactly, is playing 17 holes 10% of the time any more of an accurate representation than the guy who drops at an OB or lost ball 10% of the time and plays it out?  I'll tell you how ... it's not, and it all goes back to your very accurate statement above.

(That last question is really more directed at fourputt's comment about picking up occasionally, but I didn't quote him here so it might appear as theough my rhetorical is directed at you)

Originally Posted by trackster

So you consider someone who plays out a hole by the rules of golf a bit of a sandbagger?

I use to be are arguer for the more liberal interpretation of the rules, but I have realized that you will never win an argument when your stance is a breach of the rules.  Saying "it's the rules" is the most concrete answer you can give, so you really have no merit in "disagreeing."

Yes, because, as you said yourself, you would make that putt 100% of the time were it not for the sprinklers.  You didn't say 50, 60 70, or even 90% of the time.  You said 100% of the time.  In my book - which I wouldn't call a more liberal interpretation of the rules, but rather a more practical interpretation, or "spiritual" interpretation - it's really no different than if you were to make your next one footer and then just add one to it on the scorecard.  Nor is it any different than somebody who misses a one footer on purpose so he can add one to his score.  And that guy is still technically playing by the rules, so I think that I, in fact, do have some merit in disagreeing here.

EDIT:  For the record, since I've only popped in here to rudely argue quasi-off-topic issues, I should probably add something that is actually on topic.  I don't play with people who regularly take "breakfast balls" and I actually just recently heard the term for the first time.  I never take a second off the first tee unless I hit my first OB.  (Happens a lot more than I'd like)  My dad is the only one I know that will take a mulligan occasionally (first tee or otherwise) but he is a vanity capper of the highest order, so no surprise there. :)

[BuckeyeNut]

Breakfast ball?

Haha... since when was this a golf term?   I've never in my life heard anyone refer to a 1st tee mulligan to a breakfast ball before.

Just sayin'....

[Big C]

Trackster were you giving your full effort to the one foot putt you missed? It doesn't sound as though you did. I can abide by the rules of golf and go "double, double" on purpose tank a perfectly good round. Technically I played by the rules, but doesn't that make me a sandbagged. I agree with GD, you should have given yourself that putt- if not on your scorecard, then at least when posting.

[Big C]

Sorry for my poor grammar in the post above, but I think you catch my drift

[flintcreek6412]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

To flintcreek smartass:  When I'm playing a casual round with no wager or money on the line, then I pick up and don't finish the hole.  Is that okay with you?  I can do that as often as I need to and still post the most likely score for handicap.  Look it up.  Or better yet, here it is:

If I play out the hole because I'm in a skins or other wagering game, then I'll post par plus handicap, or I won't post the score at all because you are not allowed to post a score which is not acceptable under the handicap rules.  Happier now?

Be glad you aren't my boss because I really give him fits.....LOL

But in all honesty I'm just trying to point out that almost no one plays by exactly every single rule of golf.  The rules are more complex than tax code.  Most do the best they can with what knowledge they have. What I enjoy is that this generates discussion and thus learning .  Like I'll happily admit that I learned something.

I am well aware of how to post an unfinished hole by using par plus HC.  I've done it when halted due to weather or called off the course for an emergency at work.  But I've never picked up in an instance where ESC wasn't already reached and that pick up is always on the green where it really doesn't matter if I make that 10ft putt or not.  I don't play tournaments or match play  so concessions really aren't in my norm of play.

BUT I didn't know the part about unfinished holes where you take strokes already played and add strokes expected to finish out.  That's good information to know.  Not sure I'll ever use it but I commend those that do to help with pace of play.  And for a guy like me whose HC borders 9, my ESC varies by course since easy courses give me a course HC of 8 or 9 and harder bump me to 10 or 11 thus changing my ESC.  And seriously....is it a rule that you must physically use a club to measure 2 club lengths?

[MS256]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeNut

Breakfast ball?

Haha... since when was this a golf term?   I've never in my life heard anyone refer to a 1st tee mulligan to a breakfast ball before.

Just sayin'....

I usually eat them if somebody goes to the trouble to make them even though I normally don't go to the trouble of eating breakfast. Leftovers are not bad for a snack after work either!

I like them a lot better if the sausage is homemade.

[Mr. Desmond]

I'm for breakfast bacon...

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by flintcreek6412

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

To flintcreek smartass:  When I'm playing a casual round with no wager or money on the line, then I pick up and don't finish the hole.  Is that okay with you?  I can do that as often as I need to and still post the most likely score for handicap.  Look it up.  Or better yet, here it is:

If I play out the hole because I'm in a skins or other wagering game, then I'll post par plus handicap, or I won't post the score at all because you are not allowed to post a score which is not acceptable under the handicap rules.  Happier now?

Be glad you aren't my boss because I really give him fits.....LOL

But in all honesty I'm just trying to point out that almost no one plays by exactly every single rule of golf.  The rules are more complex than tax code.  Most do the best they can with what knowledge they have.  What I enjoy is that this generates discussion and thus learning.  Like I'll happily admit that I learned something.

I am well aware of how to post an unfinished hole by using par plus HC.  I've done it when halted due to weather or called off the course for an emergency at work.  But I've never picked up in an instance where ESC wasn't already reached and that pick up is always on the green where it really doesn't matter if I make that 10ft putt or not.  I don't play tournaments or match play  so concessions really aren't in my norm of play.

BUT I didn't know the part about unfinished holes where you take strokes already played and add strokes expected to finish out.  That's good information to know.  Not sure I'll ever use it but I commend those that do to help with pace of play.  And for a guy like me whose HC borders 9, my ESC varies by course since easy courses give me a course HC of 8 or 9 and harder bump me to 10 or 11 thus changing my ESC.  And seriously....is it a rule that you must physically use a club to measure 2 club lengths?

Sorry about the testy answer.  It was late and I was a bit grumpy.  Thanks for not taking offense too strongly.

To answer your last question, no, you don't have to actually measure.   The only requirement under the rule is that when dropped the ball must first strike a part of the course as required under the rule, and it must come to rest at a point allowed by the rule.  Those allowances are different for different relief rules.  The only times I've usually found it actually necessary to measure is when dropping in a situation where it may be difficult to find the nearest point of relief, or when I'm trying to drop at the limit of the measurement distance.  Two examples:

1)  My ball lies unplayable under a blue spruce tree (my home course in Denver is littered with them ) and I need to get every bit of the 2 clublengths I'm allowed under Rule 28c to gain relief.  I will measure and mark the limit with a tee.

2)  My ball lies on a cart path and is located in a way that it's impossible to tell which side of the cart path will be my nearest point of relief.  In such a case, measurement is necessary because dropping on the wrong side is not only a potential 2 stroke penalty, but if it turns a severely obstructed shot into a clear shot, it may be deemed a serious breach, and could conceivably result in disqualification if the mistake isn't corrected.  One of the examples we worked with out on the course at a USGA rules workshop was with an irregular area of ground under repair.  There were 3 places which might have been the NPR, and there was no way to tell without measuring it.  The correct spot in the problem was only about 2" closer to where the ball lay than one of the other spots by measurement, but the two spots were 15 feet apart on opposite sides of the GUR.

If I'm dropping from a lateral water hazard I will rarely bother to measure unless I feel for some reason that I need every bit of the 2 clublengths.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

This is the key here.  And this is why I have no problem with people doing what you did, or doing what fourputt does (skipping a hole occasionally when he loses a ball) or what a lot of other people on here do (fudge rules occasionally in different ways; gimmes, leaving flagstick in, dropping next to an OB rather than trekking back, etc, etc) and I still consider them golfers and I still consider their handicaps valid.

I think there is a big difference between someone who deals with a rare situation, LB with no provisional, and then still records their score using the correct handicap rules (as in FourPutt's case), and someone who simply and routinely plays their own version of the rules.  Like the people who, on a ball hit OB, drop a ball and add a stroke.  First of all I don't think there are many situations where it is justifiable to not hit a provisional for a ball potentially OB (LB is different).  Secondly, if someone is going to fudge the rules for "convenience" then they should put themselves in about the same place they would have been if they followed the rules.  So adding a stroke when they drop after an OB ball is not just for "convenience" it also saves them a stroke.  As is also the case in other violations.

But to use FourPutt's situation to try to justify rampant rules ignoring is just not justified (not saying that is what you did - but others) IMO.

Originally Posted by flintcreek6412

BUT I didn't know the part about unfinished holes where you take strokes already played and add strokes expected to finish out.  That's good information to know.  Not sure I'll ever use it but I commend those that do to help with pace of play.  And for a guy like me whose HC borders 9, my ESC varies by course since easy courses give me a course HC of 8 or 9 and harder bump me to 10 or 11 thus changing my ESC.  And seriously....is it a rule that you must physically use a club to measure 2 club lengths?

This comes up most frequently in matchplay when a hole is conceded.  You might be 20 feet away but your opponent has done so poorly that he concedes the hole.  Then it would be unfair for you to have to treat the conceded stroke as a one putt for posting purposes.  You are most likely to take 2 strokes so that is what you do for posting.  Or say you knock your tee shot to the fringe of the green on a par 3.  Your opponent then pumps 2 balls OB and concedes the hole. You have to then judge whether you are more likely to get down in 2 or 3, and post accordingly.