Relief NEAR Boundary Fence

[Golfingdad]

As I was putting together this drawing I had a deja vu that we've gone over this topic before, or something similar ... but, dangit, I spent time on this illustration, so I'm posting it anyway!  First the scenario in "artistic" format:

Now, I know that you are not allowed relief from OB fences or stakes, but the question that arose is whether or not the hindrance that the boundary fence provides when taking relief from the cart path is considered.  Would it be correct to say "well, I have no stance due to this fence here, so this isn't my NPR ... it has to be on the other side of the path?"  It seems to me like, since the fence isn't the cart path that you would take relief from the path first, then relief from the fence ... which you, of course, cannot do, so you are just SOL.

However, this is where the deja vu came into play.  I think I remember learning that you get to consider the club you'd use AND how you'd play the shot when taking relief.  So you could say "well, if this spot over here by the fence was my NPR then my only option would be to stand on this side of the ball and either play back towards the tee or try to play it left handed ... and, in either case, I'm still standing on the cart path, so it is, in fact, NOT my NPR because I have to take full relief ... my NPR is on the other side of the path."  Is this correct?

And this gets even more confusing from here, because once you determine that your NPR is on the other side of the path, don't you get to switch back to hitting a normal right handed shot when considering your NPR?

Anyways, sorry if this is all repetitive, but it's at least been a short while so I figure it could be a nice refresher at the very least.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Now, I know that you are not allowed relief from OB fences or stakes, but the question that arose is whether or not the hindrance that the boundary fence provides when taking relief from the cart path is considered.  Would it be correct to say "well, I have no stance due to this fence here, so this isn't my NPR ... it has to be on the other side of the path?"

Your nearest point of relief is the nearest point from which the obstacle (the cart path) does not interfere with the type of swing you would make to play the ball from that spot.

If it's a lefty swing because the fence is so close it would interfere with your righty swing, then yes, you'd drop to the "course" side of the path and you're free to swing however you'd like from there.

It's unreasonable if the cart path is in trees and you'd normally just take a chip length swing to chip the ball back to the fairway. If you can make that swing, from that position, the lefty swing would be just like something 100 yards from the green claiming they're going to hit their 3W because the added length pushes them too far away from the path to take relief on that side or something.

[Ignorant]

Sorry, but your nearest point of relief (NPR) is above the path (in your picture). The fact that you are unable to make a stroke is irrelevant. There are some Decisions to back this up, such as D24-2b/3.

EDIT: Erik was quicker.... and he was more accurate. Depending on the distances a lefty swing could get you off the hook.

[iacas]

[Golfingdad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Sorry, but your nearest point of relief (NPR) is above the path (in your picture). The fact that you are unable to make a stroke is irrelevant. There are some Decisions to back this up, such as D24-2b/3.

EDIT: Erik was quicker.... and he was more accurate. Depending on the distances a lefty swing could get you off the hook.

I see you already noticed Erik's post, but for the benefit of others, Here is the decision that Ignorant refers to ...

Player Determines Nearest Point of Relief But Physically Unable to Play Intended Stroke

Q. In proceeding under Rule 24-2b(i) or Rule 25-1b(i) , the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used to make his next stroke had the obstruction or condition not been there. What is the procedure if, having determined the stroke he would have used, he is unable physically to make such a stroke from, what would appear to be, the nearest point of relief because either (a) the direction of play is blocked by a tree, or (b) he is unable to take the backswing for the intended stroke due to a bush?

A. The point identified is the nearest point of relief. The fact that at this point the player cannot make the intended stroke due to something other than the obstruction or condition from which relief is being taken does not alter this result. The player must drop the ball within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, not nearer the hole. Once the ball is in play, the player must then decide what type of stroke he will make. This stroke may be different from the one he would have made from the ball's original position had the obstruction or condition not been there.

OK, so this decision is confusing and makes it sound like its a two part procedure.  If I have to determine that my NPR is where it is based on the swing I'd make assuming the obstruction (the boundary fence in this case) were not there, then my NPR is on the fence side of the path.  So it sounds like I make that drop, THEN determine that my only swing is now left handed, in which case, I am now standing on the path and have to, again, take relief from the same path I was supposed to have taken complete relief from the first time??

[Dormie1360]

You have it right. Each time you drop you are presented with a new situation. Each must be treated separately. After you take relief for the left handed swing your NPR may be on the right side of the path. Now you have a new condition. As you no longer need a left handed swing you may address the ball right handed. You,ll probably be standing on the path again! You may once again find a third NPR if you wish which will probably put you farther to the right.

[bubble]

you can play on the cart path or take directly unplayable as relief  (for two clubs for instance).

you may also take the free drop then use the unplayable rule if it can help that way.

your choice.

you can even imagine taking unplayable with not aenough margin to get total releif from the path but just in order to have the NPR on the good side.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

You have it right. Each time you drop you are presented with a new situation. After you take relief for the left handed swing your NPR may be on the right side of the path. Now you have a new condition. As you no longer need a left handed swing you may address the ball right handed. You,ll probably be standing on the path again! You may once again find a third NPR if you wish which will probably put you farther to the right.

LOL ... OK, sorry, now this brings up one more question.  After drop #1, I determine that I'm going to have to stand on the cart path ... and it sounds like while taking that drop I have to assume I'm going to use the same stance on the other side of the path as well?  I swear this gets more and more confusing each time. :)

I guess even if that is true, I could kill 2 birds with one stone by dropping at the furthest point within my club length, thus providing clearance from the path for a right handed swing.

Of course, that also makes me realize that more drops could be more advantageous.  If my stance is 36" from the ball, then I could get it over with in one shot by dropping 40" from the path, but if I purposely drop 34" from the path, and then have to drop again based on right handed swing, now my NPR is 36" from path and I get another 42" or so from that.

Yikes this stuff is confusing!!  (It's all just motivation to try and avoid dropping situations anyway.  Keep it in the fairway and on the green and I won't have to worry about it, lol!)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Sorry, but your nearest point of relief (NPR) is above the path (in your picture). The fact that you are unable to make a stroke is irrelevant. There are some Decisions to back this up, such as D24-2b/3.

EDIT: Erik was quicker.... and he was more accurate. Depending on the distances a lefty swing could get you off the hook.

I see you already noticed Erik's post, but for the benefit of others, Here is the decision that Ignorant refers to ...

Player Determines Nearest Point of Relief But Physically Unable to Play Intended Stroke

Q. In proceeding under Rule 24-2b(i) or Rule 25-1b(i) , the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used to make his next stroke had the obstruction or condition not been there. What is the procedure if, having determined the stroke he would have used, he is unable physically to make such a stroke from, what would appear to be, the nearest point of relief because either (a) the direction of play is blocked by a tree, or (b) he is unable to take the backswing for the intended stroke due to a bush?

A. The point identified is the nearest point of relief. The fact that at this point the player cannot make the intended stroke due to something other than the obstruction or condition from which relief is being taken does not alter this result. The player must drop the ball within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, not nearer the hole. Once the ball is in play, the player must then decide what type of stroke he will make. This stroke may be different from the one he would have made from the ball's original position had the obstruction or condition not been there.

OK, so this decision is confusing and makes it sound like its a two part procedure.  If I have to determine that my NPR is where it is based on the swing I'd make assuming the obstruction (the boundary fence in this case) were not there, then my NPR is on the fence side of the path.  So it sounds like I make that drop, THEN determine that my only swing is now left handed, in which case, I am now standing on the path and have to, again, take relief from the same path I was supposed to have taken complete relief from the first time??

.

Actually in this scenario you might have to take relief 3 times.  First for playing right handed when the ball lies on the path.  You drop on the OB side of the path, and now your only swing is left handed, so you take relief on the opposite side, still with a lefty stance (I think - this is getting a little sticky here) as that is what you are taking relief for.  This now allows you to swing righty again, but now you are again standing on the path, so you get relief even farther on that side of the path.

I believe that ultimately you end up in the same place, but the only uncertainty in my mind is the lefty stance for finding NPR on the second drop.

Two things would make this a lot easier.  Either make the out of bounds at the edge of the cart path instead of the fence so that anything left of the path is OB, or make the cart path in that area an integral part of the course so that no relief is allowed, just play it as it lies (see the Road Hole at St. Andrews Old Course).

[iacas]

you can play on the cart path or take directly unplayable as relief  (for two clubs for instance). you may also take the free drop then use the unplayable rule if it can help that way. your choice. you can even imagine taking unplayable with not aenough margin to get total releif from the path but just in order to have the NPR on the good side.

The correct answer was already given. I'm curious why you felt the need to respond, particularly since your answer is wrong. I guess I'll chalk it up to a language barrier. "Unplayable" includes a penalty stroke and none of the legal free drops involve two club lengths. Three drops. Yes. Or two if you happen to get relief with the second for a righty swing.

[Asheville]

The boys above have it right. I'll add only that when you're faced with a tricky NPR, don't lift your ball until you know exactly what you intend to do with it.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

.

Actually in this scenario you might have to take relief 3 times.  First for playing right handed when the ball lies on the path.  You drop on the OB side of the path, and now your only swing is left handed, so you take relief on the opposite side, still with a lefty stance (I think - this is getting a little sticky here) as that is what you are taking relief for.  This now allows you to swing righty again, but now you are again standing on the path, so you get relief even farther on that side of the path.

I believe that ultimately you end up in the same place, but the only uncertainty in my mind is the lefty stance for finding NPR on the second drop.

Two things would make this a lot easier.  Either make the out of bounds at the edge of the cart path instead of the fence so that anything left of the path is OB, or make the cart path in that area an integral part of the course so that no relief is allowed, just play it as it lies (see the Road Hole at St. Andrews Old Course).

OK good ... so now I don't feel so dumb for asking the question I asked as you were posting. :)

Now, I should reiterate that perhaps this is not a common scenario, and in my case, this never actually happened, nor can I think of a course I play (off the top of my head) that has this as a possibility.  It came up because a friend texted me about a situation where an opponent of his tried to take relief "from the cart path" on the cart path (such that he was clear of a tree ... cheater!) and then my dad and I were sitting around thinking of similar scenarios and he thought of this one.

One course I play often does exactly what you say ... they have white lines painted all along the edge of cart paths that are near the course boundaries.

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by iacas

This is a great diagram. Any chance of posting more in a "Rules" section?

Also, can you make an on-line test for us newbies (similar to the on-line driving tests)? That would be really cool if you had the time and resources to do it.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Lihu

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

This is a great diagram. Any chance of posting more in a "Rules" section?

Also, can you make an on-line test for us newbies (similar to the on-line driving tests)? That would be really cool if you had the time and resources to do it.

The USGA already has those tests HERE .

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The USGA already has those tests HERE.

Thanks.

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The USGA already has those tests HERE.

These are like an expanded membership application for the SCGA.

I just got 7 right out of 10, need to read up a bit more. Maybe take a test before every round.

Thanks again.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Lihu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The USGA already has those tests HERE.

These are like an expanded membership application for the SCGA.

I just got 7 right out of 10, need to read up a bit more. Maybe take a test before every round.

Thanks again.

Glad you're enjoying them.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Lihu

These are like an expanded membership application for the SCGA.

I just got 7 right out of 10, need to read up a bit more. Maybe take a test before every round.

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Glad you're enjoying them.

LOL, they are kind of hard!  Took 2 so far (the "basic" ones) and got 8 the first time and only 5 the second. :(