Pace of play scenario

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

That seemed to be an afterthought, with his main point being a single behind a course packed with foursomes is unusual.

Also, true. I have never seen anyone let a single through with a packed course. I guess you get special treatment from the starters? Must be nice.

[cda77]

I really don't care what any of you think of me.  Your math is incorrect.  It's not 3 x 12.  It's 3 for each group that let's me play through.

Call me an ass, a troll, an instigator, whatever you want.  HOWEVER:

Here is the rule you will see posted on almost every scorecard and course in the country:

ALLOW faster groups to play through.

There is no ambiguity.  It does not say ONLY if there is X space in front of you or only if YOU think it's OK.

The ONLY reason there is no where to go, is somewhere in front of you, there is a group NOT letting people play through.  Someone, like people on this thread, that have decided for themselves how to interpret the rule.

If the first group off of the day plays a 6 hour round and doesn't let anyone play through, the 10th group off is going to have a 6 hour round.  If the first group off plays a 6 hour round but let's everybody through when they catch up, that 10th groups round will have substantial time reduced. However, many people and their questionable math skills think this would result in the 10th groups round being 6:30, nonsense.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Lihu

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

That seemed to be an afterthought, with his main point being a single behind a course packed with foursomes is unusual.

Also, true. I have never seen anyone let a single through with a packed course. I guess you get special treatment from the starters? Must be nice.

Maybe I'm not being clear. I was making no comment on being let through or not. I don't think a single should be let through a wall of foursomes. I was just saying the scenario of having a single stuck behind a wall of foursomes is not that bizarre.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Originally Posted by cda77

If the first group off of the day plays a 6 hour round and doesn't let anyone play through, the 10th group off is going to have a 6 hour round.  If the first group off plays a 6 hour round but let's everybody through when they catch up, that 10th groups round will have substantial time reduced. However, many people and their questionable math skills think this would result in the 10th groups round being 6:30, nonsense.

Group one should def let group two play through - and probably all of the other eight groups as well.  I don't know if anyone is disputing that.  As previously stated, when no one is in front of you (group 1), let people play through.

But it seems like we were talking about the converse earlier - where group 10 was trying to play its way to the front through all those groups.  From group nine's perspective, there is no reason to let anyone through because there is a group directly in front of them.

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

That seemed to be an afterthought, with his main point being a single behind a course packed with foursomes is unusual.

Correct. You're case is entirely plausible however. I had not considered that. I usually play on Saturday mornings when most courses are crowded so this was the scenario in my head.

[cda77]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

Group one should def let group two play through - and probably all of the other eight groups as well.  I don't know if anyone is disputing that.  As previously stated, when no one is in front of you (group 1), let people play through.

But it seems like we were talking about the converse earlier - where group 10 was trying to play its way to the front through all those groups.  From group nine's perspective, there is no reason to let anyone through because there is a group directly in front of them.

OK, so under your thinking, if the first 5 or 6 groups off of the day are 6 hour groups, everybody suffers because look, there's no place to go.   Would you like to be group 7?

The beauty of the rule is in it's simplicity.  If people behind you play faster golf, let them through.

[cda77]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Sorry, you are wrong, but you are so stuck on your one size fits all theme that you can't see what's written right in front of you.  It's like someone who has read that you play the ball as it lies, then goes to the course with that as his only rule.  He's going to have tough time playing the game that way, and your theory of everybody plays through no matter what is just as unworkable.  Since you are immovable, I'm done with it.

And you read the rule of, "play the balls where it lies" UNLESS you decide there is wiggle room in the rule.

[David in FL]

OK, so under your thinking, if the first 5 or 6 groups off of the day are 6 hour groups, everybody suffers because look, there's no place to go.   Would you like to be group 7? The beauty of the rule is in it's simplicity.  If people behind you play faster golf, let them through.

I'm curious. If you're keeping up with the group ahead of you, and the group behind you is keeping up with you, how do you determine that the group behind you is faster than you are and should be allowed to play through?

[Lash]

But you take this phrase and assume that any faster player has the right of way, but I don't think that is the intent. You really should think of it the other way around, slower players letting others go through. Just because someone behind you is flying through, doesn't mean you have to get out of their way. If you are keeping up with the group ahead of you, that is all you can do. You are playing as fast as possible for you, so there is no "faster player."

[cda77]

Originally Posted by David in FL

I'm curious. If you're keeping up with the group ahead of you, and the group behind you is keeping up with you, how do you determine that the group behind you is faster than you are and should be allowed to play through?

I can tell, can't you?  I can tell if the group behind me is playing faster golf than my group.  I have read enough of your posts to know `100% for certain you can tell too.  If I see the group behind me is striping every tee shot and hitting every green and my group is spraying and looking for balls, pretty easy to figure.

[David in FL]

I can tell, can't you?  I can tell if the group behind me is playing faster golf than my group.  I have read enough of your posts to know `100% for certain you can tell too.  If I see the group behind me is striping every tee shot and hitting every green and my group is spraying and looking for balls, pretty easy to figure.

Not necessarily. There are a lot of very good golfers that are slower than death, and plenty of high handicappers that move along nicely. Guess which one I'd rather play with? ;-) If my group is being held up, and is waiting on the group ahead of us, I have no way to judge the potential pace of play of the group behind me relative to ours. Heck, they could easily be slower than we are, but that's masked by the group ahead of us......and the group ahead of that group, and so on and so on.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

Quote:

Originally Posted by cda77

If the first group off of the day plays a 6 hour round and doesn't let anyone play through, the 10th group off is going to have a 6 hour round.  If the first group off plays a 6 hour round but let's everybody through when they catch up, that 10th groups round will have substantial time reduced. However, many people and their questionable math skills think this would result in the 10th groups round being 6:30, nonsense.

Group one should def let group two play through - and probably all of the other eight groups as well.  I don't know if anyone is disputing that.  As previously stated, when no one is in front of you (group 1), let people play through.

But it seems like we were talking about the converse earlier - where group 10 was trying to play its way to the front through all those groups.  From group nine's perspective, there is no reason to let anyone through because there is a group directly in front of them.

If the first group of the day is on a 6 hour pace then the ranger is not doing his job.  That group should either be playing faster or they should be booted off the course.  That is a completely unacceptable situation on any course I've ever played.  It would certainly not be allowed on the course where I worked as starter.

Originally Posted by cda77

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Sorry, you are wrong, but you are so stuck on your one size fits all theme that you can't see what's written right in front of you.  It's like someone who has read that you play the ball as it lies, then goes to the course with that as his only rule.  He's going to have tough time playing the game that way, and your theory of everybody plays through no matter what is just as unworkable.  Since you are immovable, I'm done with it.

And you read the rule of, "play the balls where it lies" UNLESS you decide there is wiggle room in the rule.

There is wiggle room in the "play it as it lies" principle (see Rules 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, and 28), and there is wiggle room in the principle of letting slower players play through.  You just have to look at it rationally.

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by cda77

OK, so under your thinking, if the first 5 or 6 groups off of the day are 6 hour groups, everybody suffers because look, there's no place to go.   Would you like to be group 7?

The beauty of the rule is in it's simplicity.  If people behind you play faster golf, let them through.

I'm curious. If you're keeping up with the group ahead of you, and the group behind you is keeping up with you, how do you determine that the group behind you is faster than you are and should be allowed to play through?

Good question.

Originally Posted by cda77

I can tell, can't you?  I can tell if the group behind me is playing faster golf than my group.  I have read enough of your posts to know `100% for certain you can tell too.  If I see the group behind me is striping every tee shot and hitting every green and my group is spraying and looking for balls, pretty easy to figure.

It doesn't matter how good the group behind you is if you are keeping pace with the field.  If you aren't keeping pace then you have a bigger problem than just letting others play through - a problem which can be repaired with a bit of training and guidance.

Players like you are the ones which bog courses down, because they think that they are doing everything right, and as such are impossible for the ranger to deal with because they won't listen.  Your group in the above scenario is creating a rolling road block that will cause constant problems for the rangers or course managers for an entire day of play.  Your style of smug self righteousness is one of the most difficult problems we had to deal with on busy days.

Let me ask you something.  How would you react if the ranger told you that you had to pick up and get back in your proper position instead of dogging it around and allowing others to play through?  This is a far more likely scenario than you seem to think on any course I've ever played, and I can assure that it is how it would be handled at the course where I was starter.

[cda77]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Not necessarily. There are a lot of very good golfers that are slower than death, and plenty of high handicappers that move along nicely. Guess which one I'd rather play with?

If my group is being held up, and is waiting on the group ahead of us, I have no way to judge the potential pace of play of the group behind me relative to ours. Heck, they could easily be slower than we are, but that's masked by the group ahead of us......and the group ahead of that group, and so on and so on.

I agree 100%.  Maybe what I should have said is I can tell when I pull the flag and look back and see four people taking naps in the fairway.

And you are right about the pace of the group behind you being masked.

I guess I am being stubborn because somewhere ahead is a group or groups holding everyone else up.  I look at it like ready golf, if everyone would participate golf would be faster for everyone.

However, honestly, in your scenario above, even if I wasn't sure, I would still offer because I know the worst that can happen is it costs me half a hole. Because even if the groups speed is being masked, if they are keeping up with me, they are also keeping up  with the group in front of me, which can only cost me half a hole in time.

[jimmyc]

There are so many opinions, I'll add mine.

If we are a 4 some on pace for a 4, 41/2 round, and there is a single, 2 some or whatever behind us and waiting, we do a very simple thing. We look at whats in front of us. If there is a foursome playing at pace and we can see another hole ahead also playing pace, there is no sense letting them play through.

Conversely, if the course is empty in front of us, and we are playing at pace or faster, we gladly let them play through. What does it cost us in time? 5 minutes at best. It's common sense and courtesy.

By the way, if the course is packed, we don't play. We drink. (We only play on morning weekdays.......cause we can)

[cda77]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If the first group of the day is on a 6 hour pace then the ranger is not doing his job.  That group should either be playing faster or they should be booted off the course.  That is a completely unacceptable situation on any course I've ever played.  It would certainly not be allowed on the course where I worked as starter.

There is wiggle room in the "play it as it lies" principle (see Rules 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, and 28), and there is wiggle room in the principle of letting slower players play through.  You just have to look at it rationally.

Good question.

It doesn't matter how good the group behind you is if you are keeping pace with the field.  If you aren't keeping pace then you have a bigger problem than just letting others play through - a problem which can be repaired with a bit of training and guidance.

Players like you are the ones which bog courses down, because they think that they are doing everything right, and as such are impossible for the ranger to deal with because they won't listen.  Your group in the above scenario is creating a rolling road block that will cause constant problems for the rangers or course managers for an entire day of play.  Your style of smug self righteousness is one of the most difficult problems we had to deal with on busy days.

Let me ask you something.  How would you react if the ranger told you that you had to pick up and get back in your proper position instead of dogging it around and allowing others to play through?  This is a far more likely scenario than you seem to think on any course I've ever played, and I can assure that it is how it would be handled at the course where I was starter.

LOL, I am not holding anybody up, that's what you can't get through your head.  It's impossible for me to be the cause of slow play if I let faster players play through.  It  doesn't not create a rolling roadblock, it sends slower players backwards where they belong and faster players ahead of them.  NOW you bring rangers into the scenario, if a ranger cannot recognize a slow group that is not letting others play through, that ranger should be fired. I would never be asked to pick up because I would never be the cause of a hold up, BECAUSE I let faster players through. You cannot see that letting people play through IS the solution.

[cda77]

Originally Posted by jimmyc

There are so many opinions, I'll add mine.

If we are a 4 some on pace for a 4, 41/2 round, and there is a single, 2 some or whatever behind us and waiting, we do a very simple thing. We look at whats in front of us. If there is a foursome playing at pace and we can see another hole ahead also playing pace, there is no sense letting them play through.

Conversely, if the course is empty in front of us, and we are playing at pace or faster, we gladly let them play through. What does it cost us in time? 5 minutes at best. It's common sense and courtesy.

By the way, if the course is packed, we don't play. We drink. (We only play on morning weekdays.......cause we can)

Why?  It costs you only 5 minutes to let them go, no matter what is in front of you.  You are judging whether to let them play through by what you can see.  What if the course is wide open in front of the second foursome you can see?  It would cost you 5 minutes, the foursome in front of you five minutes and the next foursome 5 minutes and BOOM that twosome is gone off to the races, done in 2:45.

[Fourputt]

Sigh.

[boil3rmak3r]

Sigh.

This... CDA - the next time you play as a single and the course is packed with non-stop 4-somes, ask the pro shop if they would want every 4-some to let you play through. Their answer should tell you what's best for the overall pace of play on the course...