Pace of play scenario

[tomvk77]

not saying anything on the argument going on.

But i think we do it right at my home course.

Your place in the field is not more than a hole gap

between the flight in front of you.

So not just in front off the flight behind you.

I always have the feeling if a flight plays faster  than mine

i just let them past. I hate it myself also if i have to wait

on tee and fairway

[David in FL]

just because you think I am wrong, doesn't make you right.

In this particular case, it does.....

[RoyJeeBiv]

[iacas]

cda, are you even capable of recognizing what people are saying?

You responded to my post in a manner that indicates that you are not. How many times have I posted in this thread? The primary point of my post was to point out the many inaccurate statements you've made. Statements like how you've presented "logic" (you have not), how your experiences are "proof" (they are not), as well as to point out that studies have been conducted on pace of play AND your math is incorrect, AS WELL AS to point out that you are incapable of following the basic rules of etiquette yourself.

And you basically respond by saying "nuh uh, you're wrong too."

I'll offer you a simple challenge:

Originally Posted by cda77

There is logic in my posts, you just don't agree with it and I have proven my point with several different examples.  I am not stating the same thing over and over.

Where? Where is something you've said which counts as "logical." And I don't just mean "makes sense" because something that makes sense can be wrong, or not apply. Show me true logic - a clear "if this and this, then that" that holds up as accurate and true .

Originally Posted by cda77

The same applies to let faster players play through.

Unfortunately, it does not, no. Players are asked to use both common sense and courtesy. Letting a single through a pack of foursomes, delaying the earlier foursomes by multiples of your five minutes, is not employing common sense.

Originally Posted by cda77

LMFAO, not being a martyr and wow are you a hypocrite.  Good Luck

There goes your "no name calling" streak. Oh well. :)

---

You've brought little to nothing new to the discussion for quite some time now, so if this trend continues, you'll simply be restricted from this thread. You're not now, of course, but you're nearly there, and this is your final warning.

I, and others, get very tired of hearing the same thing all the time. The arguments you've presented in the last several posts boil down to: "The rules of etiquette say you must do so at all times, and my experience says I'm right, so there."

Come up with some new material.

[mad max]

Originally Posted by cda77

Quote:

Originally Posted by scam3bill

You're not saying anything new. No matter how you slice it, whether you all hit off the tee or not, at some point the group has to let you go on ahead. That's five minutes you've added to their round, and as we've explained, it *is* cumulative.

It is not cumulative is cost you 5 minutes, nothing else. You will wait 5 minutes on me and never be held up any longer

Fine for the sake of this argument I will agree that you only cost each group 5 minutes.  I don't agree but lets say you are correct.

You play through 6 groups of 4 costing them 5 minutes each.  The total time that cost other golfers is 6x4x5= 120 minutes.  I doubt that you playing through 6 groups will save two hours on your round but even if it does the net time saved for golfers on the course is still zero.  It just gives me the impression that you think your time is more valuable then everyone else.

[SCfanatic35]

Not sure if it has been answered, but I still want to know why a course would let a single go off when the course is packed?

[Meltdwhiskey]

I agree that this wouldn't happen very much - but I guess there could come a time of day that maybe there was a 4-some scheduled at 3:40 and 3:50 and then only one guy wanted to play at 4:00?  Or maybe the 4:00 group no-showed and a guy had shown up hoping to catch an opening?  Fairly unlikely, but I wouldn't think impossible.

But I would think that it happens so infrequently that this particular scenario wouldn't affect this conversation enough to present it.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by mad max

Fine for the sake of this argument I will agree that you only cost each group 5 minutes.  I don't agree but lets say you are correct.

You play through 6 groups of 4 costing them 5 minutes each.  The total time that cost other golfers is 6x4x5= 120 minutes.  I doubt that you playing through 6 groups will save two hours on your round but even if it does the net time saved for golfers on the course is still zero.  It just gives me the impression that you think your time is more valuable then everyone else.

Yep, thought this exact same thing.

I've also been trying to think it through in my head and I am convincing myself that it does actually accumulate.  If I'm the last foursome and it's now my turn to hit and we let you play through, its not just going to take you 5 minutes because until you catch up to the next group you are only playing at their pace.  So, right there, you are slowing me down by the amount of time it take a foursome to play that hole (I realize you'll putt faster, so not quite the same).  So let's say 14 minutes for the foursome ... but be generous and round down to 10 because you are putting faster.

Now you race to the next tee to catch them just as it's their turn to hit and repeat the process.  The second group is still sitting on the 2nd tee waiting on you waiting on the 3rd group on the second green when my group rolls up.  Remember, we are already 10 minutes or so behind our pace, and now we are standing on the next tee with the group that is supposed to be in the fairway getting ready to hit their approaches.  But they can't yet because you're still there.  They would have been where you are, which means we'd still wait a couple of minutes, but now instead we wait those same couple of minutes for you and another 7 or so on top of that for them.

My math tells me that we are just teeing off of the second hole (since you caught us) roughly 20 minutes or so later (10 minutes extra while you played 1, 2 or 3 minutes extra while you played 2, then 7 or 8 minutes extra while group 2 played 2) than we would have.

Certainly my math could be off, but it seems logical to me, and that sounds awfully cumulative as well.

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

Not sure if it has been answered, but I still want to know why a course would let a single go off when the course is packed?

Remember when we played Belmont on a Saturday, I believe, and we got to 17 and 10/11/12 area was jammed?  It's possible that an hour behind them it slowed down, so theoretically, a single could get off, but he shouldn't be surprised when he catches up to the crowd.  Plus, usually in situations like that you ask in the pro shop about the crowds and you'll get warned, so their should be no surprises or expectations when you see the crowds.  Practice chipping on the tee boxes, play extra shots if there is nobody behind you, skip ahead, quit and go home, whatever.  You have a million options ... just don't expect one of them to be that a "wall of foursomes" will let you play through consecutively.  That's plain silly.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

Not sure if it has been answered, but I still want to know why a course would let a single go off when the course is packed?

Because selling one green fee beats selling no green fees if there is an open tee time.  It's not like a properly managed course would squeeze a single player into a full tee sheet, but if there is an open reservation which hasn't been filled, whether due to a cancellation or for any other reason, then it makes sense to get something for it if a walk-on wants to deal with the delay.  As a starter, I would always tell the player what the situation was, that the course was full in front of him and that he wouldn't be able to play through anyone, and if he chose to play anyway, we were fine with it.  I don't see anything wrong with it - his money is as good as anyone else's.

Naturally, I would always try to hook him up with a short group, but that wasn't always possible.  I'm not going to deny him the opportunity to play just because he has the bad luck to be a single on a Saturday.

[Dave2512]

I play as a single often and IMO it only makes sense to play through if there is somewhere to go. If I catch people with a group in front of them sometimes the oblivious ask me to play through. I assume because they assume it's the polite thing to do. I politely decline and mention the group ahead and assure them I am not in a hurry and will not push them. It disrupts the flow if there's nowhere to go and my leisurely day on the course becomes one of rushing as I fight to play between two groups where there wasn't room to be sandwiched between.

In most instances I've outpaced anyone behind me and I take measures to not blaze through any gaps and put myself in a position to catch anyone ahead. Sometimes it happens inadvertently because I can't see them if the course layout has hidden them from view. I'll chip and putt after finishing a hole. I'll take extra time deciding which shot to play and spend time reading greens that I usually wouldn't to experiment how it affects my play just to keep a comfortable distance. I don't like being forced to play a certain way and I do what I can to keep the harmony on the course. If it's an unbearably slow day and I'm out there alone I'll jump off the course at the closest point to the clubhouse and call it a day.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by cda77

I really don't care what any of you think of me.  Your math is incorrect.  It's not 3 x 12.  It's 3 for each group that let's me play through.

You're not a fan of using your funking brain, are you?  Or do you simply believe the world--and pace of play timing--revolves around your round only?  The time accumulates for the last group on the course.

You somehow think you are using logic, but all of your logic is based on one or two incorrect assumptions/rules.

Originally Posted by jimmyc

There are so many opinions, I'll add mine.

If we are a 4 some on pace for a 4, 41/2 round, and there is a single, 2 some or whatever behind us and waiting, we do a very simple thing. We look at whats in front of us. If there is a foursome playing at pace and we can see another hole ahead also playing pace, there is no sense letting them play through.

This happens because you are using your brain.  Cda77 doesn't like to do that.  Let the group behind play through at all times.  Let the group behind play through at all times.  Let the group behind play through at all times.  It's a programming command that he must follow, or his hardwiring will malfunction.

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

Not sure if it has been answered, but I still want to know why a course would let a single go off when the course is packed?

Packed may not be the best word.  However, I have gone off as a single many times when there were foursomes on the course just a few holes ahead.  Typically it happens approaching the twilight hours, when the course is somewhat full from the 1-2 hours before the single arrives, but only a few tee times booked when he's teeing off and nobody to pair him with at a particular tee slot.

One time I was fortunate enough that the three foursomes on the course has space inbetween their groups, so all through let me play through and it didn't necessarily accumulate for groups behind them because there was already a gap (full hole).  Again, that would mean the course wasn't "packed", but there are situations where a single has an opportunity to play through multiple foursomes, but the situations making it feasible are rare.  Most of the time I end up waiting or eventually joining up with a group that has less than four.

[tristanhilton85]

As everybody except CDA has said, it only makes since to let a faster group play through in certain situations. If there is a gap, then yeah, let 'em though as it only costs you the few minutes and they fill the gap. If there is no gap then they either get stuck behind the next group and are in the same situation, except now you're slower or they keep playing through and they slow down the entire course.

I play as a single a lot and I avoid playing weekend mornings because that is about the only time the course is crowded around here this time of year. For example, if I tee of around 9 on a Saturday I can go as a single; it's usually already 100°+ by then and with people trying to beat the heat, most groups are already on the course by then. Soon into my round I'll hit a wall (6th hole or so) of the last groups who teed off in the morning and it'll be stacked. I have no expectation that these guys will let me through and why should I? There aren't any gaps, there is no where for me to go.

Now, occasionally I'll go mid day and run up on a another group and can see that the course is wide open; in that situation, I expect to be let through. If the course isn't wide open, and there is just a little bit of a gap, I don't expect to be let through right away; they possibly had a ball search or something and could possibly close the gap quickly; however, if it's the third or fourth hole I've come up on a group and that gap is still there, then they should let me pass.

[k-troop]

Not sure if it has been answered, but I still want to know why a course would let a single go off when the course is packed?

Because only a masochist would want to play with cda77?

[iacas]

BTW, to be clear, neither of these is correct:

1. It will delay everyone only five minutes.
2. It will delay everyone in the inverse amount of the order in which they're played through times five minutes.

In other words, it's not just five minutes, but it's not just five minutes purely cumulative, either.

This is particularly true if the single is ever able to find a gap, because that gap existed and yet the lead foursome was only playing at that pace, and the group behind them will be playing at their pace, and so on.

I think I said it was cumulative earlier in the thread. I misspoke (or I was wrong - whichever you prefer). It's not cumulative, but it's not as simple as saying "five minutes only" either.

[David in FL]

Because only a masochist would want to play with cda77?

I was thinking that too. Can you imagine how long a round could take for his group?! :~(

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by iacas

BTW, to be clear, neither of these is correct:

It will delay everyone only five minutes.

It will delay everyone in the inverse amount of the order in which they're played through times five minutes.

In other words, it's not just five minutes, but it's not just five minutes purely cumulative, either.

This is particularly true if the single is ever able to find a gap, because that gap existed and yet the lead foursome was only playing at that pace, and the group behind them will be playing at their pace, and so on.

I think I said it was cumulative earlier in the thread. I misspoke (or I was wrong - whichever you prefer). It's not cumulative, but it's not as simple as saying "five minutes only" either.

Depends on the how the word "cumulative" is being used, I think.  I agree each group does not lose the sum of the the time each group ahead of them spends getting played through. But I also agree that each group loses more than just the time spent when they are getting played through.  The amount is somewhere in between, which I've been describing using the word "cumulative". Which I think is correct because the definition is, "Formed by the accumulation of successive parts or elements" - i.e., not necessarily equal parts or elements.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Depends on the how the word "cumulative" is being used, I think.  I agree each group does not lose the sum of the the time each group ahead of them spends getting played through. But I also agree that each group loses more than just the time spent when they are getting played through.  The amount is somewhere in between, which I've been describing using the word "cumulative". Which I think is correct because the definition is, "Formed by the accumulation of successive parts or elements" - i.e., not necessarily equal parts or elements.

Connotatively I think many would take it to mean 5+5+5+5+5 (in the context of this thread).

And yes, as I said, the answer is somewhere in the middle. Agreed.

[Lihu]

Because selling one green fee beats selling no green fees if there is an open tee time.  It's not like a properly managed course would squeeze a single player into a full tee sheet, but if there is an open reservation which hasn't been filled, whether due to a cancellation or for any other reason, then it makes sense to get something for it if a walk-on wants to deal with the delay.  As a starter, I would always tell the player what the situation was, that the course was full in front of him and that he wouldn't be able to play through anyone, and if he chose to play anyway, we were fine with it.  I don't see anything wrong with it - his money is as good as anyone else's. Naturally, I would always try to hook him up with a short group, but that wasn't always possible.  I'm not going to deny him the opportunity to play just because he has the bad luck to be a single on a Saturday.

I think this is location dependent. Here in So. Cal. it is pretty easy to fill at least a twosome or threesome. It is pretty rare around here for a single to go out on a busy day.