snedeker's ball moved on hole 12

[toroboy]

In the Canadian open Snedeker's ball moved and I haven't seen any comment.  The camera zoomed in on his ball in the debris.  At that moment someone out of frame ticked the adjacent log--I presume it was Snedeker and the ball moved----100% sure on this for we replayed it many times on HD.  Ball moved.  The next time we saw the ball Snedeker had already removed said log and other twigs from area behind ball.  What is the rule?  Player hits debris either inadvertently or not and ball moves.  Ball movement may only have been seen by camera.  Same debris is then removed prior to shot.  Hole 12. 2-shot penalty or dq since he signed the card?  This will be big and maybe you heard it here first.

[Dormie1360]

I didn't see this, so I probably shouldn't comment, but yes, if your ball moves while moving loose impediments through the green it's a penalty.   If the movement could only be seen because of HD, and it was not reasonable for the player to have seen the movement then it's still a penalty but no DQ for signing an incorrect card.

33-7/4.5

Competitor Unaware of Penalty Returns Wrong Score; Whether Waiving or Modifying Disqualification Penalty Justified

Q. A competitor returns his score card. It later transpires that the score for one hole is lower than actually taken due to his failure to include a penalty stroke(s) which he did not know he had incurred. The error is discovered before the competition has closed.

Would the Committee be justified, under Rule 33-7 , in waiving or modifying the penalty of disqualification prescribed in Rule 6-6d ?

A. Generally, the disqualification prescribed by Rule 6-6d must not be waived or modified.

However, if the Committee is satisfied that the competitor could not reasonably have known or discovered the facts resulting in his breach of the Rules, it would be justified under Rule 33-7 in waiving the disqualification penalty prescribed by Rule 6-6d . The penalty stroke(s) associated with the breach would, however, be applied to the hole where the breach occurred.

For example, in the following scenarios, the Committee would be justified in waiving the disqualification penalty:

• A competitor makes a short chip from the greenside rough. At the time, he and his fellow-competitors have no reason to suspect that the competitor has double-hit his ball in breach of Rule 14-4 . After the competitor has signed and returned his score card, a close-up, super-slow-motion video replay reveals that the competitor struck his ball twice during the course of the stroke. In these circumstances, it would be appropriate for the Committee to waive the disqualification penalty and apply the one-stroke penalty under Rule 14-4 to the competitor's score at the hole in question.
• After a competitor has signed and returned his score card, it becomes known, through the use of a high-definition video replay, that the competitor unknowingly touched a few grains of sand with his club at the top of his backswing on a wall of the bunker. The touching of the sand was so light that, at the time, it was reasonable for the competitor to have been unaware that he had breached Rule 13-4 . It would be appropriate for the Committee to waive the disqualification penalty and apply the two-stroke penalty to the competitor's score at the hole in question.
• A competitor moves his ball on the putting green with his finger in the act of removing his ball-marker. The competitor sees the ball move slightly forward but is certain that it has returned to the original spot, and he plays the ball as it lies. After the competitor signs and returns his score card, video footage is brought to the attention of the Committee that reveals that the ball did not precisely return to its original spot. When questioned by the Committee, the competitor cites the fact that the position of the logo on the ball appeared to be in exactly the same position as it was when he replaced the ball and this was the reason for him believing that the ball returned to the original spot. As it was reasonable in these circumstances for the competitor to have no doubt that the ball had returned to the original spot, and because the competitor could not himself have reasonably discovered otherwise prior to signing and returning his score card, it would be appropriate for the Committee to waive the disqualification penalty. The two-stroke penalty under Rule 20-3a for playing from a wrong place would, however, be applied to the competitor's score at the hole in question.

A Committee would not be justified under Rule 33-7 in waiving or modifying the disqualification penalty prescribed in Rule 6-6d if the competitor's failure to include the penalty stroke(s) was a result of either ignorance of the Rules or of facts that the competitor could have reasonably discovered prior to signing and returning his score card.

For example, in the following scenarios, the Committee would not be justified in waiving or modifying the disqualification penalty:

• As a competitor's ball is in motion, he moves several loose impediments in the area in which the ball will likely come to rest. Unaware that this action is a breach of Rule 23-1 , the competitor fails to include the two-stroke penalty in his score for the hole. As the competitor was aware of the facts that resulted in his breaching the Rules, he should be disqualified under Rule 6-6d for failing to include the two-stroke penalty under Rule 23-1 .
• A competitor's ball lies in a water hazard. In making his backswing for the stroke, the competitor is aware that his club touched a branch in the hazard. Not realising at the time that the branch was detached, the competitor did not include the two-stroke penalty for a breach of Rule 13-4 in his score for the hole. As the competitor could have reasonably determined the status of the branch prior to signing and returning his score card, the competitor should be disqualified under Rule 6-6d for failing to include the two-stroke penalty under Rule 13-4 . (Revised)

[toroboy]

Thanks John.

I was so concerned he was going to loose the tourney.  They will add 2 to his score.  Mark my words.  In that case no harm to him or fedex points.

[David in FL]

I saw it. Other players and caddies were searching for another ball 20 feet or so away. Looked to me like someone over there stepped on a long branch/log that shook. Not sure if the ball actually moved or not, but without the camera on it, no one could have possibly known that someone walking 20 feet away may have caused the ball to move.....and there was no way to tell who may have stepped on the long branch in question because no one was anywhere near the ball at the time....they were all looking for the other ball.

[TJBam]

Kid in the world junior amateurs called this penalty on himself during the match play championship this afternoon.  Hope it was honest mistake by Sned.

[newtogolf]

Snedeker has called penalties on himself in the past that cost him.  If he caused the ball to move I think he'd own up to it.  Not sure what the ruling is if another golfer causes it to move but that is likely what happened.

[toroboy]

tj I need to respond.  I noticed Snedeker "milling around" in the brush after he had discovered his ball.  Was the step on a long branch/log inadvertent?  What if he saw the ball next to log and needed a "shake loose" maneuver.  Other cameras and angles are needed to correlate Snedeker's movements.  Remember at that time Johnson had not hit OB yet.  I don't think HD is even needed to see this movement. Any DVR will do.  It's shocking I know, but in the heat of the moment poor decisions are made.

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by toroboy

tj I need to respond.  I noticed Snedeker "milling around" in the brush after he had discovered his ball.  Was the step on a long branch/log inadvertent?  What if he saw the ball next to log and needed a "shake loose" maneuver.  Other cameras and angles are needed to correlate Snedeker's movements.  Remember at that time Johnson had not hit OB yet.  I don't think HD is even needed to see this movement. Any DVR will do.  It's shocking I know, but in the heat of the moment poor decisions are made.

Lingmerth had hit out of bounds ahead of Snedeker.  They were both looking for their ball and trying to determine if they were playable at the same time.

[toroboy]

That is true.  But Snedeker had found his ball and was then ostensibly helping to find Lingmerth's ball.  Lingmerth's ball was 20 yards away.  Snedeker was the only one near the log---however it is possible for someone to have jumped in and hit the log.  The salient point is the next view shows all clean dirt right behind the ball and the log and brush all gone.  "Improve you lie, sir." (caddyshack)  I have OCD.  In that tense situation I would be yelling at people to stay away from that log----the ball microns away from a 6 inch diameter log.  In the close up the branch/log shook and the ball rotated.  I was surprised when the next view showed a nice clearing---the clearing made while everyone was looking at the Lingmerth situation.

[David in FL]

That is true.  But Snedeker had found his ball and was then ostensibly helping to find Lingmerth's ball.  Lingmerth's ball was 20 yards away.  Snedeker was the only one near the log---however it is possible for someone to have jumped in and hit the log.  The salient point is the next view shows all clean dirt right behind the ball and the log and brush all gone.  "Improve you lie, sir." (caddyshack)  I have OCD.  In that tense situation I would be yelling at people to stay away from that log----the ball microns away from a 6 inch diameter log.  In the close up the branch/log shook and the ball rotated.  I was surprised when the next view showed a nice clearing---the clearing made while everyone was looking at the Lingmerth situation.

You completely missed the process wherein Snedeker moved the log, a loose impediment. That entire process was on camera and there was NO problem with it.

[Fourputt]

All I smell here is a conspiracy theory.  If there were several people searching in the general area and the camera was not on them at that moment, there is no way to tell who moved the ball, or if it indeed did move.  You can't call a breach on what may be unwarranted suspicion.

[David in FL]

All I smell here is a conspiracy theory.  If there were several people searching in the general area and the camera was not on them at that moment, there is no way to tell who moved the ball, or if it indeed did move.  You can't call a breach on what may be unwarranted suspicion.

Exactly.

[toroboy]

to 4 putt: yes I am way out there on this.

to David:  yes, that's exactly the point.  The ball was shaken loose of the log by the unknown "stepper".  My guess is that it was Snedeker acting like he's helping the other search---and unaware of the camera focused in on the ball at that exact moment.  The step and vibration a few minutes prior to the clearing.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by toroboy

to 4 putt: yes I am way out there on this.

to David:  yes, that's exactly the point.  The ball was shaken loose of the log by the unknown "stepper".  My guess is that it was Snedeker acting like he's helping the other search---and unaware of the camera focused in on the ball at that exact moment.  The step and vibration a few minutes prior to the clearing.

You join the site for no other reason than to try and create some controversy?   Something smells.

[toroboy]

join yes. start something no.  It went down like this.  I saw the limb move and I thought I saw the ball slightly move, and I thought why is anyone even near the limb adjacent to the ball.  Just before this I asked my brother " why is Snedeker wandering his ball is right there. " I felt great satisfaction in proving to my brother that the ball moved---after 3 rewinds.  My brother is the golfer who suspected nefarious activity.  A lot to be gained by stepping on the log to see if it is a movable impediment.  Anyway I joined because I just couldn't find any discussion on the web about it even moving--the whole speculation about cheating came later.  And yes I do smell.

[RickK]

Originally Posted by toroboy

In the Canadian open Snedeker's ball moved and I haven't seen any comment.  The camera zoomed in on his ball in the debris.  At that moment someone out of frame ticked the adjacent log--I presume it was Snedeker and the ball moved----100% sure on this for we replayed it many times on HD.  Ball moved.  The next time we saw the ball Snedeker had already removed said log and other twigs from area behind ball.  What is the rule?  Player hits debris either inadvertently or not and ball moves.  Ball movement may only have been seen by camera.  Same debris is then removed prior to shot.  Hole 12. 2-shot penalty or dq since he signed the card?  This will be big and maybe you heard it here first.

Did you call it in?  Or just post it here?  The Rules Officials are not reading this website during the tournaments.

[toroboy]

I don't know how to call it in.  I was sure others had seen it move.  I am taping the replay and will definitely investigate Snedeker's movements.  I think the network will have the answer on unused angles---answers as to the whereabouts of Snedeker when the log vibrated.

[David in FL]

I don't know how to call it in.  I was sure others had seen it move.  I am taping the replay and will definitely investigate Snedeker's movements.  I think the network will have the answer on unused angles---answers as to the whereabouts of Snedeker when the log vibrated.

Others did see it. And other than you, I haven't heard anyone that saw any breach that could be attributed to Snedeker or his caddie. BTW....there was a rules official right there the entire time.