My Swing (RandallT)

[RandallT]

Went to the range to hit a small bucket for the first time since November last year, I think. But I've been reviewing Evolvr lessons, reviewed this thread, looked at my videos, made notes, and did some slow motion work in the mirror last week. I thought I was good to go.

Apparently not. 

Notes to self on next range session:

1. Use video! I got stubborn and thought I'd just do partial swings to get the muscles working for the year. No need to take video, I thought. Surely, I'd make decent contact and then be able to pick up with video next time.
2. Have more of a plan than to just swing easy using the all of fundamentals I've been working through in the notes I took from last year's work. Pick one or two things, and that's it.
3. Use the same club until you gain confidence that you can find the ball. To start the season, not every shot needs to be an adventure in guessing how the club should feel.

What I ended up doing this time:

1. Took my time and rehearsed swing between each shot, concentrating on key points from notes,
2. Took a new club for every single shot,
3. Swung 25-50% swing to feel a proper swing hopefully get a straight-ish ball flight.

The result was a disaster. I must've shanked 75% of them. Funny thing was that I thought I was swinging ok, and just not able to find the ball. As I ponder the range session now, since I didn't review any video, I think my swing was just way off. Even when I used 100% concentration to make solid clubface contact, I would shank it.  Of the 10 shots I even hit remotely straight, I think most of those were hit fat or totally thin- no consistency. I never "found" the ball at all, and since I have no video, I really think the whole exercise was useless except to confirm that I need to practice better.

Here's to a better session #2.

[RandallT]

This year so far, I've reviewed my Evolvr lessons, taken notes, done mirror work, been to the range a couple times, and played four rounds. I've decided it's time to submit another few videos to Evolvr to see how far I've regressed!  

I feel like my swing is coming around, but honestly I can't see any differences!!!! If anything, it might be worse, which is frustrating. Without further ado or comment, here are today's swings (purposely my natural swing that I used on the course to shoot a disappointing 95 yesterday):

 

 

[Nosevi]

Hey Randy, how's it going?

I'll leave it to the instructors on the site to go into the nitty gritty of your swing but the one thing I notice, particularly dtl, is that your right leg gets quite straight on the backswing. This makes it quite difficult to load up and coil on the backswing and so can rob you of potential power. It's something I've had to work really hard on as after a sporting accident and surgery on my right knee I have no feeling in it at all. Anyway, that's something that may (or may not) be worth looking at.

Out of curiosity which way did the ball go - starting line and cuvature? Was that representative to on the course?

[RandallT]

Pete! Good to see you here.

Both of these were fairly straight shots (6iron about 170-175 or so), but my pattern on the course is more fades than draws. Not a lot of curvature. For guys who played with me recently, feel free to chime in if I'm way off base with that. I tend not to remember my own pattern, to be honest. My good drives tend to be straight, slight fades or even slight draws at times. When I'm off, they're fat, thin, or bad slices. Rarely do I duck hook it.

[Nosevi]

Have you tried any low point drills like putting a towel laid out flat on the ground an inch or two behind the ball and hitting shots to ensure ball then turf contact? If you're fatting and thinning it can often be from the same thing - low point being behind the ball so you fat if you hit the ground and thin if you miss it and hit the ball on the way back up. If strike rather than direction is your main issue then it could be worth spending some time doing this :)

[Phil McGleno]

44 minutes ago, Nosevi said:

I'll leave it to the instructors on the site to go into the nitty gritty of your swing but the one thing I notice, particularly dtl, is that your right leg gets quite straight on the backswing. This makes it quite difficult to load up and coil on the backswing and so can rob you of potential power.

Unless he is locking out-hyperextending-his knee he is probably fine. You can no more coil or load up by extending the knee than you can keeping it flexed.-It just re-flexes again on the downswing anyway.

His right knee appears to be fine IMO.

[Nosevi]

11 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

Unless he is locking out-hyperextending-his knee he is probably fine. You can no more coil or load up by extending the knee than you can keeping it flexed.-It just re-flexes again on the downswing anyway.

His right knee appears to be fine IMO.

Phil, are you saying biomechanically you can put as much torque through a straight knee as you can through a knee with some degree of flex retained? We're taught the opposite here at our National Academy. Could be our physios and coaches are wrong and you're right but it is something they teach.

Still, the day every golf instructor agrees on everything it'd be a surprise :)

[RandallT]

For what it's worth, this has been the summary of all of my Evolvr lessons (maybe a total of 8 video instructions from mid 2014 through end of 2015, and resuming again now after my submission today). These are my shorthand summaries of key items as they came in (and were repeated). I've left off some things that in retrospect may have been minor tweaks or that I've got mostly covered. 

I review this list each time I go out, and try to pick one or two things each range session. The majority of my work has been laying my club down, so obviously I'm having difficulty there. That and my cupped left wrist are recurring, I think. But new problems pop up while I'm focused on those, so it's a process. Far slower than I expected, but I'll keep up hope that things will trend better this year.

• Grip (per TST, wrist on top, etc)
• Address: Hands more forward to mid-thighh
• Posture more forward. I'm too much on my heels. Feet inches from wall while butt touching.
• Knees bend outward to match feet
• Extend right leg on backswing. Feel stretch on right side as you turn
• Left hip angles down, right hip back and up.
• Lay down club on the downswing (SEE VIDEO OF STEPHAN). RECURRING. RECURRING. WHY CAN"T YOU FIX THIS?
• Keep club pointed up at A6. (NO CUPPING). STOP CUPPING. YES, STILL STOP CUPPING.
• Practice hitting to the right of an alignment rod (CLUBFACE CONTROL)
• Left Shoulder should work more down than it is (mostly fixed?)
• Right elbow should tuck in front of shirt seam on way back. Getting too far behind me
• Feel club laid off and shorter at the top. Club going too far
• Add palmar flexion left wrist from A4 - A7
• Path of hands is now too far in on BS. At A3, should be above middle of feet

 

As for the right leg, my instructor said what @Phil McGleno did also. Next time I wear shorts, I'll see if I'm locking the knee out. I think that might be ok as there's still some bend there. It was something I had worked on, as I used to keep my right leg quite bent with less hip turn (the whole x-factor thing). I used to use my right hip as more of an anchor. I feel more natural this way and I get more shoulder turn, but when I wear shorts, I'll see if there's any locking going on. I know my instructor didn't want any full straightening to happen.

I haven't "found the ball" too well on the course yet this year with the fats/thins, but I'll give that time and just play more. I had a terrible range session earlier in the year where I was shanking horribly, but today, I felt like nearly everything was crisp. Good idea with a towel to make sure I'm not hitting way behind the ball. I tend not to use objects at the range for some reason, and I stick to the list above with some video checking. I've always had good eye-hand coordination from all the sports I grew up playing and feel like I'll be able to find the ball when I get to play enough.

[RandallT]

What is crazy (and recurring) is that I feel like I go to here:

but in reality, I go to here:

Feel ain't real. I was quite surprised that my work on keeping my left wrist flatter and the backswing shorter with a tucked right elbow hardly showed up today.  More concentration needed, I guess.

[Phil McGleno]

1 hour ago, Nosevi said:

Phil, are you saying biomechanically you can put as much torque through a straight knee as you can through a knee with some degree of flex retained? We're taught the opposite here at our National Academy. Could be our physios and coaches are wrong and you're right but it is something they teach.

You are using a bunch of words that you have not defined.-What is coil and everything? You can turn more when your trail leg extends and that in my world means you can get more coil.-We are past the days of keeping the trail knee flexed a bunch and turning against the lower body are we not?

And I sure as shit did not say totally straight.

Bubba does not worry about his trail knee losing a lot of its flex in the BS.

Also I do not care about rankings. I know good information and I know a lot of highly ranked instructors who are garbage all the same.-Do not know your teachers but rank assures me of very little.

So define coil or whatever and tell me please in what way is he limiting something by extending his knee?

Looks to me-tough to see in the shadows though-that there is still a little flex left. It is not straight straight. As I said above I do not like straight straight either.

[Nosevi]

25 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

You are using a bunch of words that you have not defined.-What is coil and everything? You can turn more when your trail leg extends and that in my world means you can get more coil.-We are past the days of keeping the trail knee flexed a bunch and turning against the lower body are we not?

So define coil or whatever and tell me please in what way is he limiting something by extending his knee?

Looks to me-tough to see in the shadows though-that there is still a little flex left. It is not straight straight. As I said above I do not like straight straight either.

I'm not sure we totally disagree - I justthought the leg looks pretty much totally straight. 

By coil I mean having at least some resistance in the lower body against the upper body. What you are describing is what I'd call turn not what I'd call coil.

What do you loose by straightening the right knee and by that I mean totally straightening it? Basically you loose power. When I threw discus competitively I was always taught that you had to maintain flex in the trail knee in order to create coil. In fact you squatted slightly on the 'backswing' to ensure you maintained this flex. Fail to do this and one of two things would happen - either the discus wouldn't go very far or your ACL would snap. Probably both.

Take your point with Bubba but this lad keeps far more flex in his trail knee. Much of his early coaching was at the same place as me which may be why it's a feature of his swing I guess - it's just what we're taught.

Anyway, are we totally disagreeing? I juust think the leg looks straighter than you do, especially in the freeze frames Randy's put up. We both agree that totally straight isn't a great idea. Maybe it's not as straight as it looks to me though.

 

[Phil McGleno]

1 hour ago, Nosevi said:

By coil I mean having at least some resistance in the lower body against the upper body. What you are describing is what I'd call turn not what I'd call coil

That does not create coil.-Stand up and twist back without turning your hips. It is not like you are a spring -you do not snap back into the ball. Do I want people to turn their hips 90° and lock out their leg?-No I have been clear about that. But there is no real coil.

1 hour ago, Nosevi said:

What do you loose by straightening the right knee and by that I mean totally straightening it? Basically you loose power.

It is lose not loose.

And you do not lose power by extending your trail knee. Look at Bubba-He hits it farther than Willett.

1 hour ago, Nosevi said:

When I threw discus competitively I was always taught that you had to maintain flex in the trail knee in order to create coil. In fact you squatted slightly on the 'backswing' to ensure you maintained this flex. Fail to do this and one of two things would happen - either the discus wouldn't go very far or your ACL would snap. Probably both.

Cool golf is not discus.-Correct me if I am wrong but you turn around 360 degs or more in a discus throw and your feet do not stay in the same place right?

So maybe we can discuss relevant things. Golfers are not springs.

AND you can re-flex your knee on the downswing.

[Nosevi]

Ok, firstly lose was a typo, thanks for pointing it out :)

In discus, yes you move your feet after the first turn but you create much of the power and speed in that first turn away (want to say coil but you don't seem to agree there is any). It's a sport in which you create a form of rotational power in a very similar way to golf. You may think that's irrelevant, I disagree. I think it's relevant in the same way that it was relevant that Carl Wolter was a Javelin thrower pior to winning the remax long drive championship as a complete rookie to the sport. But we can agree to disagree if you'd like.

Bubba vs Willett - yes Bubba hits it further. Wilett creats a big twist in his abdomen (shoulders turn, hips stay square), Bubba creates a big twist in his trail leg. Both create this big twist just in different tendons in the body. It doesn't matter I guess but all the big hitters create this twist and tension somewhere in their bodies.

Regarding coiling/twisting/the spring-like nature of the golfer, ok we disagree a bit there as well. Can I go to the extreme of my backswing as I would on a full swing and hold it there without a massive muscular effort? Nope. I doubt anyone can. I'd argue you do in fact create a longitudinal  torque through your body (whether that's in the abdomen or the trail leg) at the limit of your swing and that acts a lot like a spring in creating power. Butch Harmon appears to agree with me:

What we most definitely do agree on is a totally straight leg is a bad idea. Neither of us know how staight Randy's leg is, let's wait for him to break out the shorts and he can check it himself :)

We are allowed to disagree, Phil, you don't need to 'shout me down'. The guys I've worked with in the field of sports science and biomechanics describe the generation of torque in the tendons of the body to create a rotational force. You believe them to be wrong. That's cool, we just disagree :)

[iacas]

11 hours ago, Nosevi said:

In discus, yes you move your feet after the first turn but you create much of the power and speed in that first turn away (want to say coil but you don't seem to agree there is any). It's a sport in which you create a form of rotational power in a very similar way to golf. You may think that's irrelevant, I disagree. I think it's relevant in the same way that it was relevant that Carl Wolter was a Javelin thrower pior to winning the remax long drive championship as a complete rookie to the sport. But we can agree to disagree if you'd like.

You're not offering any actual proof, Pete. You're just saying things you think make sense without any real understanding.

Carl Wolter is a good athlete who likely has what I'd call "fast arms." His trail knee extends quite a bit on the backswing in the few swings I've seen.

So what are you really after here, Pete? Do you honestly believe that the trail knee shouldn't extend during the backswing? Because if you're trying to argue that it shouldn't lock out or go dead straight, I haven't seen anyone disagreeing with that.

11 hours ago, Nosevi said:

Bubba vs Willett - yes Bubba hits it further. Wilett creats a big twist in his abdomen (shoulders turn, hips stay square), Bubba creates a big twist in his trail leg. Both create this big twist just in different tendons in the body. It doesn't matter I guess but all the big hitters create this twist and tension somewhere in their bodies.

Where does Bubba create the tension? He has what many would describe as a pretty free turn. John Daly, too - a pretty free (and big, like Bubba) turn, no?

Like @Phil McGleno said, people are not springs. There's a teeny tiny amount of tendon stretching you can use, but… that's not going to add a ton of speed.

11 hours ago, Nosevi said:

That first part doesn't even agree with you. He's saying to keep some flex to stop from whatever he defines as "overshifting".

And the second part, well, Butch is mistaken the same way you are: that the human body is like a spring. It is, except for a very small capacity, not.

11 hours ago, Nosevi said:

What we most definitely do agree on is a totally straight leg is a bad idea. Neither of us know how staight Randy's leg is, let's wait for him to break out the shorts and he can check it himself :)

So what are you arguing about then?

11 hours ago, Nosevi said:

We are allowed to disagree, Phil, you don't need to 'shout me down'. The guys I've worked with in the field of sports science and biomechanics describe the generation of torque in the tendons of the body to create a rotational force. You believe them to be wrong. That's cool, we just disagree :)

Dude, enough of the victim card shit. It has to stop being your go-to. Either discuss or don't, but cut the victim act.

The amount of energy your tendons can produce is rather small. The vast, vast majority of energy and thus speed comes not from x-factor stretch, but from the muscles (largely in the core and arms) being able to fire quickly and, for some, over a bit longer period of time (bigger backswings can let a slower acceleration build to the same or greater speeds by having more "time and space" to accelerate).

[Phil McGleno]

11 hours ago, Nosevi said:

Ok, firstly lose was a typo, thanks for pointing it out :)

One-I would believe you. Two-No, you are one of those people who think loose is lose.

11 hours ago, Nosevi said:

In discus, yes you move your feet after the first turn but you create much of the power and speed in that first turn away (want to say coil but you don't seem to agree there is any).

I asked you to define coil and said nobody just springs back.-You ducked that.

11 hours ago, Nosevi said:

Bubba vs Willett - yes Bubba hits it further. Wilett creats a big twist in his abdomen (shoulders turn, hips stay square), Bubba creates a big twist in his trail leg. Both create this big twist just in different tendons in the body. It doesn't matter I guess but all the big hitters create this twist and tension somewhere in their bodies.

Then what is your problem with people extending the trail knee?

11 hours ago, Nosevi said:

Regarding coiling/twisting/the spring-like nature of the golfer, ok we disagree a bit there as well. Can I go to the extreme of my backswing as I would on a full swing and hold it there without a massive muscular effort? Nope. I doubt anyone can. I'd argue you do in fact create a longitudinal  torque through your body (whether that's in the abdomen or the trail leg) at the limit of your swing and that acts a lot like a spring in creating power. Butch Harmon appears to agree with me:

Butch Harmon does not even know what makes the ball fly the way it does.-You seem to be big on rankings and give them more weight than they are due and do not actually seem to think for yourself.

Go to the top of your backswing and then just let all your muscles go. Except for gravity you will not generate much clubhead speed at all. You are not a coiled spring.

11 hours ago, Nosevi said:

We are allowed to disagree, Phil, you don't need to 'shout me down'. The guys I've worked with in the field of sports science and biomechanics describe the generation of torque in the tendons of the body to create a rotational force. You believe them to be wrong. That's cool, we just disagree :)

ERrrr-Did not see that post when I made mine.

[RandallT]

Range day today that I think was decent progress. The latest video motivated me to change the picture (and as I scroll through my "My Swing" thread, I see I have gotten that motivation many times before without too great a success yet, but hope is eternal). 

My focus was clear on two things from past lessons:

1. Backswing stopping when it is supposed to.
2. Not cupping left wrist.

I used video to spot check. I did nearly all 30% to 50% swings. It was tedious, but I think I did go through the pain of forcing myself to change the picture somewhat. Two other things that I incorporated toward the very end (last 10 balls or so): 

1. Swinging out to right field and pushing the ball to the right of a target immediately in front of me
2. Generally feeling that my downswing is shallower than my backswing.

These two things were secondary, but after 40 balls of doing the first two things somewhat successfully, those next two things crept into my head. 

Results: video confirmed that I'm shortening the backswing on the 50% swings, but gets longer as I swing fully. I only did 5 full swings, and only 1 of them got close to the length of the backswing shown above.

Focusing on the left wrist was helpful, and I think it looked less cupped. I practiced a lot of sawed-off backswings where I did nothing but focus on the left wrist not cupping. It feels more natural now, and I realize my natural tendency is to cup significantly at A6, opening the clubface quite a bit. By keeping my left wrist flatter, I did get the feel of more solid contact at slow speeds.

Next step: Await Evolvr recommendations, and get busy with the next range session. Take video of that practice session based on their recommendation of priority, and possibly post here. I've only posted full swings here, and the idea of posting practice still feels a bit dorky. I grudgingly admit it could be helpful to stay disciplined.

 

 

[Lihu]

20 hours ago, RandallT said:

What is crazy (and recurring) is that I feel like I go to here:

but in reality, I go to here:

Feel ain't real. I was quite surprised that my work on keeping my left wrist flatter and the backswing shorter with a tucked right elbow hardly showed up today.  More concentration needed, I guess.

Yeah, you aren't kidding about that.

What I found is that if I can keep my wrist flatter (and internally aligned) my back swing kind of shortens "automatically". Not sure if it applies to you or not, but I tend to try to focus on the flat wrist first then let the back swing follow. I stop at the top and check in the mirror to see if my wrist is flat and usually the back swing is reduced when I look up without really trying.

I also do a lot of half swings to reduce my back swing, and this is where I focus on the back swing. Sometimes I think I am coming parallel only to find the shaft sticking vertically up in the air. Then I reset and try again. The mirror or something like a mirror helps a lot.

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, RandallT said:

Results: video confirmed that I'm shortening the backswing on the 50% swings, but gets longer as I swing fully. I only did 5 full swings, and only 1 of them got close to the length of the backswing shown above.

Quite honestly, this is one of the toughest things to fix.

My recommendation? Stop at "half a backswing." When I tell people I want to see a "half swing" they show me a pretty good full swing (not a 130% swing ).

Or, something like "stop when my left arm is horizontal" or "when the shaft sticks up vertically" (ignore the tilt from the "swing plane" - vertically from face-on 2D video).

Eventually, over a looooong period of time, your "half swing" will become more natural.