235 Out on This Par Five - What's the Play?

[mdl]

Originally Posted by cipher

Laid up to what? Proximity to hole statistically trumps laying up to say a comfy 100y wedge shot. As long as the 10hc can hit it safely close to the green they should take the longer club they know will allow them to do so. There is no major trouble on this hole that I see. I would take the 10hc within 20 yards of the green any day of the same guy from 100 yards out.

Yeah I've never understood the lay up to a comfortable wedge distance advice or thinking.  Sure I feel like my 60-70 yard game isn't great, but that's because I expect it to be like 40% better than my 100-105 game, but it's only maybe 10-20% better.  On par 5s where it's just not a smart play for me to go for the green given my drive, I'm taking the longest club that isn't just a dumb shot cause dangers are too great (ie, chance of success too low).  That's why my answer above for a day when I'm not feeling super confident in my 2h is to hit a shot that's supposed to stop 10 yards in front of the bunkers.  I'd much rather play a 30 yard up-and-down than a 100 yard up-and-down for birdie!!

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by mdl

Yeah I've never understood the lay up to a comfortable wedge distance advice or thinking.  Sure I feel like my 60-70 yard game isn't great, but that's because I expect it to be like 40% better than my 100-105 game, but it's only maybe 10-20% better.  On par 5s where it's just not a smart play for me to go for the green given my drive, I'm taking the longest club that isn't just a dumb shot cause dangers are too great (ie, chance of success too low).  That's why my answer above for a day when I'm not feeling super confident in my 2h is to hit a shot that's supposed to stop 10 yards in front of the bunkers.  I'd much rather play a 30 yard up-and-down than a 100 yard up-and-down for birdie!!

Many is the time that I'd rather a 100 yard shot than a 20 or 30 yard one.

With greens that slope off severely from the front with a front pin positiopn, for example.

Often, I'd rather have a shot from 50 yards when there's rough right up to the fringe than a shot from 10 metres, too.

Sometimes you need to hit the ball harder because you need the spin and there's more margin for error with a fullish shot.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Yeah I've never understood the lay up to a comfortable wedge distance advice or thinking.  Sure I feel like my 60-70 yard game isn't great, but that's because I expect it to be like 40% better than my 100-105 game, but it's only maybe 10-20% better.  On par 5s where it's just not a smart play for me to go for the green given my drive, I'm taking the longest club that isn't just a dumb shot cause dangers are too great (ie, chance of success too low).  That's why my answer above for a day when I'm not feeling super confident in my 2h is to hit a shot that's supposed to stop 10 yards in front of the bunkers.  I'd much rather play a 30 yard up-and-down than a 100 yard up-and-down for birdie!!

It must be a personal preference thing. My 100-110 yard full smooth wedge game is solid. My 30-80 yard half wedge game is not. I made 5 birdies in the World Am last week over the 4 days. All of them were on par 5's where I laid up to 100-110 yards and then hit my wedge within 12 feet and made the putt. I will admit my pitching and chipping is sub-par for my handicap. I would rather hit a 100 yard shot than a 40 yard shot every single time. But that's just a weakness in my own game I guess.

[Strandly]

Originally Posted by MEfree

PM me for private ski lessons at Vail, Beaver Creek, Copper Mountain, Breckenridge or Keystone

Unless you have the OK from the mountain I would be careful about this.  My brother did the exact same thing last year and someone spotted him giving lessons to a kid and reported him to the resort.  They called a sheriff and confiscated his season pass.  He didn't get charged with a crime but they kicked him off the mountain and tore up his pass.  OT I know, so carry on!

[nick1998bunker]

Many is the time that I'd rather a 100 yard shot than a 20 or 30 yard one. With greens that slope off severely from the front with a front pin positiopn, for example. Often, I'd rather have a shot from 50 yards when there's rough right up to the fringe than a shot from 10 metres, too. Sometimes you need to hit the ball harder because you need the spin and there's more margin for error with a fullish shot.

if you can hit a 100 yard shot closer than a chip then you know exactly what you need to work on... Get on it

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

if you can hit a 100 yard shot closer than a chip then you know exactly what you need to work on... Get on it

I'm not talking about a chip. I'm talking about a 30-60 yard half wedge shot. If my 2 options are chip from just off the green or hit a full wedge from 100 yards, I'd be chipping. But yes, my pitching and chipping are a weak point. ***EDIT*** Just realized this was targeted at Shorty, not me. However, since our replies were similar, I'll leave my response.

[nick1998bunker]

I'm not talking about a chip. I'm talking about a 30-60 yard half wedge shot. If my 2 options are chip from just off the green or hit a full wedge from 100 yards, I'd be chipping. But yes, my pitching and chipping are a weak point. ***EDIT*** Just realized this was targeted at Shorty, not me. However, since our replies were similar, I'll leave my response.

Ok but 30-60 yards is a easy wedge more like a chip than anything, especially like on this hole where it is a bump and run from the fringe

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Ok but 30-60 yards is a easy wedge more like a chip than anything, especially like on this hole where it is a bump and run from the fringe

Sorry, but 60 yards is rarely "like a chip". And if that's the shot, I'd rather hit a full wedge from 110, than "chip" from 50 yards.

[iacas]

Answer being typed up now.

Though calling it an "answer" gives it too much weight IMO. I do feel I will back up my opinion fairly well, though.

It may take me awhile. Please keep posts in the meantime as on topic as always.

[LuciusWooding]

If I were Erik, I'd probably play smart and try and make a birdie or par, given his putting and short game are pretty good. I'd probably hit a 5 or 6 iron about at the left bunker and leave a 40-50 yard pitch with an open angle at the hole. I could put that inside 8 feet maybe 80% of the time if I were him? And maybe after that I'd have about a 50/50 shot at a birdie putt along with a free read. Worst case scenario if I hit the layup properly is probably a par. There are more options from that spot than I might have wherever I land trying to reach it. I can't accurately predict my lie anywhere but there, so I can realistically get close to the pin in regulation where I might have no shot otherwise. He's a good player and ought to be making some birdies on par 5s. I consider hitting the green in 2 or hitting a good approach to be enough of an accomplishment because I'd have no fun if I only cared about score because my scoring consistently sucks. But sometimes I hit the ball well at least.

The eagle is probably a 5% chance or less; and hitting the green from that yardage at all is pretty grim for players a lot better than Erik. I believe the PGA tour average from 225-250 is in the neighborhood of 50 feet in proximity, and even the absolute best are averaging 40 feet or so. That green is not that big, and there are trees there to eat low balls and cut off much of it from access. Not to mention you'd want to be in a good spot to putt from. Easier to do that from 40 yards out than 240. Trying to make a 50 foot bomb for eagle can cause one's lag putting to diminish.

Erik, why did we go for the right side of the fairway again? You must not have wanted to reach in 2 in the first place, or you know something we don't. If I wanted to reach in 2, I'd have been a little pickier about the angle even if it cost me a few yards. I think you hit the tee shot over there on purpose, or let it drift over there because it wasn't important to have that angle. Ending up in that spot means reaching in 2 isn't much of an option, imo.

If it were me, I couldn't hit this shot in one try to be honest. My only shot would be to crush a 3 iron with a fade, which isn't my natural shape, and would be a perfect yardage for a stock draw 3i off a tee, off the deck that would be a huge hit even if my fade wasn't shorter than my draw. I'd screw the shot up in every conceivable way if I attempted it. The only way I could do it would be into the wind if I could hit my 2 hybrid, as it might make the yardage about perfect.

Playing this for real, I'd hit that 5 iron over to the left side with my standard draw, not caring if it rolls into the rough. I'd have to ad lib a pitch shot that stops hopefully somewhere near the hole and try to guess the speed and hope my putting stroke doesn't embarrassingly fail me as it always seems to do.

I also putt about half a stroke worse per hole or more than a scratch golfer. So even though I could get into the same spot in 2 as Erik with no problem, with my wedge play and putting I'd likely make a 6 instead of a 4.5 on this hole. With that in mind, you can see why I wouldn't be afraid to bring 7 or 8 into play if it meant I could skip part of the short game process and use some of my prowess on long shots for a change. It's one of the best aspects of my game relative to others, so why should I shelve it and hit shots I suck at using a strategy for people with consistent short games? If you've ever hit a golf ball 240 yards through the air and watched it soar the whole way only for it to land and stop on the green, you'd understand why I might not lay up in some circumstances. But not on this hole from this drive.

If it were mirrored, however, and I could play a draw around the trees from there, I'd hit the 3i all day long, try to carry it to the front and let the ball end up where it will. I can hit fades at will and control my trajectory but most of my good shots are either my stock shot or my stock shot with a bit of extra power. I have trouble dialing the other stuff in unless I practice a lot.

Then I'd drop a ball and try and hit it over the trees with a mighty draw. I couldn't resist giving it a try at least. Those trees are schmuck bait.

[nick1998bunker]

Sorry, but 60 yards is rarely "like a chip". And if that's the shot, I'd rather hit a full wedge from 110, than "chip" from 50 yards.

Ok well that's your preference but its not that way for all, and 30 yards is a chip because you don't worry about yardage but mainly about feel and you bring it back a quarter and through a quarter, and also you would never have a 30 yard shot in this senario unless you seriously mishit it

[MS256]

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

It must be a personal preference thing. My 100-110 yard full smooth wedge game is solid. My 30-80 yard half wedge game is not. I made 5 birdies in the World Am last week over the 4 days. All of them were on par 5's where I laid up to 100-110 yards and then hit my wedge within 12 feet and made the putt. I will admit my pitching and chipping is sub-par for my handicap. I would rather hit a 100 yard shot than a 40 yard shot every single time. But that's just a weakness in my own game I guess.

I'm just about the complete opposite. My full wedge game comes and goes (and mostly goes). The closest things to a constant in my game are that I feel very good about working a fairway wood either direction and that I feel even better about getting up and down from places other people consider dead.

Looking forward to Erik's "answer".

Golf is such a simple game (just joking). All we have to do is know exactly what we are doing well at any given moment and know what we are not doing well. Then stay away from stupid mistakes that get us in those situations where we have to do what we are not doing well...All while being aggressive enough to not unnecessarily pass up chances for under par holes.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Strandly

Unless you have the OK from the mountain I would be careful about this.  My brother did the exact same thing last year and someone spotted him giving lessons to a kid and reported him to the resort.  They called a sheriff and confiscated his season pass.  He didn't get charged with a crime but they kicked him off the mountain and tore up his pass.  OT I know, so carry on!

Thanks for the head up, but I am employed by Vail, so its all above board for me.  Vail owns Beaver Creek, Keystone and Breck and we have a reciprocal arrangement with Copper, so I can instruct in uniform at any of the mountains.  https://www.facebook.com/SkiInstructorMatt

Back to the topic at hand...

[nick1998bunker]

I don't think y'all understand, the only time you should lay up is if there is risk of a high number, the only risk here is if you block it extremely right into the woods and have to re hit or if you are in the left bunker

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by nick1998bunker

if you can hit a 100 yard shot closer than a chip then you know exactly what you need to work on... Get on it

As usual, you miss the point and don't read the actual post.

I am not talking about a chip being harder than a shot from 100 yards.

You are butting into every single thread and you don't even know what they are about.

Have you never ever heard or of or seen players lay up to a comfortable distance? For the shot that follows?

One of the biggest mistakes a lot of golfers make is to hit their second shot as far as they possibly can on every par 5 and every par 4 they can't reach.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by nick1998bunker

I don't think y'all understand, the only time you should lay up is if there is risk of a high number, the only risk here is if you block it extremely right into the woods and have to re hit or if you are in the left bunker

Here you go again.........a shot into a bunker would in 90% of cases be preferable to a shot from 100 yards.

You have an obsession with (your own) distance.

Steve Stricker really struggles with those shots from 100 to 150 yards, doesn't he?

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by RadarNinja

Caddies know their players, pretty silly analogy.

That is a great point, except for the fact that it is untrue a large percentage of the time.  So that would make it a silly point.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Thanks for the head up, but I am employed by Vail, so its all above board for me.  Vail owns Beaver Creek, Keystone and Breck and we have a reciprocal arrangement with Copper, so I can instruct in uniform at any of the mountains.  https://www.facebook.com/SkiInstructorMatt

And though it's OT (but done now), and a bit commercial, because you're a long-time and valued member and because it's not golf-related, we are happy to let you keep a single simple sentence in your signature.

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

Erik, why did we go for the right side of the fairway again? You must not have wanted to reach in 2 in the first place, or you know something we don't. If I wanted to reach in 2, I'd have been a little pickier about the angle even if it cost me a few yards. I think you hit the tee shot over there on purpose, or let it drift over there because it wasn't important to have that angle. Ending up in that spot means reaching in 2 isn't much of an option, imo.

I'll answer this because it doesn't change the "answer": because I hit my ball straight off tee. It didn't draw. It stayed in my cone; it just didn't draw.

The trees up the left-hand side prevent any other shape from working. In particular, there's one tree on the left side that sticks out over the very edge of the fairway.

Additionally, the fairway is less than 30 yards wide at that point.

Originally Posted by nick1998bunker

I don't think y'all understand, the only time you should lay up is if there is risk of a high number, the only risk here is if you block it extremely right into the woods and have to re hit or if you are in the left bunker

Nick, you've had your say a few times now. C'mon now.