PGA and Preferred Lies (fluffing)

[Fourputt]

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Originally Posted by MEfree

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

So what?  Its still the same for everyone.  I've played dozens of mud balls over the years, and 90% of the time the dirt has no effect on the shot.

There's no dealing with bad bounces either.  Do want to regulate them out of the game too?  Ooh darn - that bad kick put me in the deep rough.  I should get to drop it back in the fairway.  Then I get to clean and place it because we are playing lift, clean and cheat.  Sheesh... just play golf and quit whining.

I don't feel strongly one way other the other about lift, clean and place but will point out that bad bounces can be increased or decreased by course design and the luck with mud balls can be eliminated with lift, clean and place.  Most players prefer fair courses that have less random bounces than mini golf, so I imagine that some players do like to see the luck factor of mud balls regulated out of the game the same way some players feel that you should not have to play from a divot on the fairway.  I know you don't agree, but others are entitled to their opinions as well.

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

You just don't get it do you?  If you aren't being entertained, then why are you watching?  And if all of us weren't being entertained by watching, the PGA Tour would be bankrupt in a month.  Of course they are in the business of entertainment.  All professional sports are in the business of entertainment.  There is no other reason for their existence.

I think it is you who missed Saevel's point- he didn't say that we aren't entertained.  What he said is that the pros first concern is winning $ and golf tournaments and that the entertainment provided to us is a byproduct of their goal to play as well as they can.  Yes, some pros go out of their way to sign autographs and do interviews, but they don't decide how to play a shot in competition based on what they think will entertain the viewers the most.  Phil might be the exception.

I didn't miss anything, I just strongly disagree.  When I watch golf, I watch to see them play golf.  That includes all of the randomness and nuances of the complete game (and the ability to handle the adversity and recovery when the bounces go the wrong way), not just hitting from perfect lies to perfect greens, over and over, ad nauseum.  I also don't care much for the courses or setups which allow for driver wedge on 90% of the par 4 holes.  That too is contrary to the totality of the game of golf.  This is why I mostly only bother to watch the majors and upper tier events any more.  The rest is just boring repetition of the same old same old.

Golf is supposed to have some randomness to it.  That's why it's played with weirdly shaped sticks over hill and dale in all sorts of weather.  Unless a course is truly a sloppy mess, there is no reason to allow the players to lift, clean, and place the ball in a full clublength arc.  When my club did it, we only had 6 inches to play with, which only mitigated the lie, not the line of play.  And it was only invoked when it was a choice of use preferred lies or declare the course unplayable.

If they must regulate the mud ball (and I'd still argue against it), then I'd rather see a local rule which only allows them to mark, lift, clean, and replace the ball in the same spot.  Now they have a 3 foot radius semicircle to find a tuft of grass to prop the ball up on - might as well just let them tee it.

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What he said is that the pros first concern is winning $ and golf tournaments and that the entertainment provided to us is a byproduct of their goal to play as well as they can.  Yes, some pros go out of their way to sign autographs and do interviews, but they don't decide how to play a shot in competition based on what they think will entertain the viewers the most.  Phil might be the exception.

You have it backwards.  The fact that they make money, and how much they make, is a byproduct of their entertainment value.  The less entertaining they are, the less money they will make (see the LPGA Tour for reference).  I don't give a rat's behind who signs autographs or who doesn't.  That's not a part of playing golf.  Neither is lift, clean and cheat.

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Originally Posted by saevel25

Want to talk about Denver, how about the Colorado Rockies, they put baseball in a Humidifier to make the game more fair. So, in cases were they can achieve an even playing field they could. I guess if Denver wanted to, build a new stadium, make it a dome, and pump extra oxygen into the stadium to make it fair. Its possible.

Honestly i could care less if they do or don't have the preferred lies. I am just not going to sit back and hammer the PGA for making a rule that is trying to benefit the whole playing field. So i see no issue it, its up to the PGA to decide. If the players voice there concern about it, which apparently they are not, then there is no issue. The only issue seems to be people who get upset about something that doesn't even effect them. When you get on the PGA, then your opinion will truly matter, else wise its just complaining about something that you can't change.

The put the ball in the humidifier not to make it more fair - after all, both teams are playing the same ball in the same stadium.  The use the humidifier so that the batting statistics for the Rockies players will be recognized without the inevitable asterisk.   But that hos nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Of course the players aren't going to beg for play it as it lies.  The typical club golfers would by happy as a clam with preferred lies every other tournament.  That still doesn't increase the entertainment value.   And it dies affect me, or at least it affects my viewing plans.  I don't usually bother to watch when the Tour invokes the rule, because too often they do it for conditions which don't really warrant it.

[Strandly]

Want to talk about Denver, how about the Colorado Rockies, they put baseball in a Humidifier to make the game more fair. So, in cases were they can achieve an even playing field they could. I guess if Denver wanted to, build a new stadium, make it a dome, and pump extra oxygen into the stadium to make it fair. Its possible.

Honestly i could care less if they do or don't have the preferred lies. I am just not going to sit back and hammer the PGA for making a rule that is trying to benefit the whole playing field. So i see no issue it, its up to the PGA to decide. If the players voice there concern about it, which apparently they are not, then there is no issue. The only issue seems to be people who get upset about something that doesn't even effect them. When you get on the PGA, then your opinion will truly matter, else wise its just complaining about something that you can't change.

Oh yeah?  Just who do you think drives the ad revenue that allows these people to play a children's game for a living?  Just because enough people apparently don't care about the fluff rule to make more noise doesn't mean the PGA wouldn't be stupid to blow off the fans.  To even suggest that is just.. incredibly naïve to say the least.

[saevel25]

Oh yeah?  Just who do you think drives the ad revenue that allows these people to play a children's game for a living?  Just because enough people apparently don't care about the fluff rule to make more noise doesn't mean the PGA wouldn't be stupid to blow off the fans.  To even suggest that is just.. incredibly naïve to say the least.

Then how many fans want to see there favorite player loose a tournament because of a mud ball. It strikes both ways there. Just because we watch PGA tour events, doesn't mean our opinion matters to the PGA tour. It does when it comes to important matters, but this is so trivial its laughable. PGA tour isn't alienating anyone by making this rule change during the wet golf seasons. They are not going to loose viewership. Until a rule change causes a drastic change in viewership, then it really doesn't matter. PGA tour knows they are going to get people to watch. Just because a few guys get all anal on one insignificant rule change, doesn't bother the PGA tour. If your thinking this is blowing off the fans, your naive.

Its not being Naive, its being realistic. Equipment changes, that's a big deal. The whole long putter thing, that's a big deal. Mud ball rulings for a couple of tournaments, that's just a waste of energy to worry about.

[Fourputt]

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Originally Posted by Strandly

Oh yeah?  Just who do you think drives the ad revenue that allows these people to play a children's game for a living?  Just because enough people apparently don't care about the fluff rule to make more noise doesn't mean the PGA wouldn't be stupid to blow off the fans.  To even suggest that is just.. incredibly naïve to say the least.

Then how many fans want to see there favorite player loose a tournament because of a mud ball. It strikes both ways there. Just because we watch PGA tour events, doesn't mean our opinion matters to the PGA tour. It does when it comes to important matters, but this is so trivial its laughable. PGA tour isn't alienating anyone by making this rule change during the wet golf seasons. They are not going to loose viewership. Until a rule change causes a drastic change in viewership, then it really doesn't matter. PGA tour knows they are going to get people to watch. Just because a few guys get all anal on one insignificant rule change, doesn't bother the PGA tour. If your thinking this is blowing off the fans, your naive.

Its not being Naive, its being realistic. Equipment changes, that's a big deal. The whole long putter thing, that's a big deal. Mud ball rulings for a couple of tournaments, that's just a waste of energy to worry about.

How many fans want to see their favorite player win a tournament because he played a great shot in spite of a mud ball?  You make it out to be a bigger deal than it is.  How many great shots have you seen tour players make from lies in divot holes?  It rarely even affects them, and the same is true of a bit of mud on a ball.  I've seen it a number of times when a player gets a clump of mud on the ball and the announcer is all worried that it's going to ruin his shot, then the player sticks the ball 10 feet from the hole.  Just because it bothers you doesn't mean that it would really bother them.  Just because they don't ask for it doesn't mean that it would bother them that much if they had to play that way.

Golf's basic principles are that you play the course as you find it, and you play your ball from tee to hole by making strokes, and don't touch the ball until you lift it from the hole.  Shortcutting that process without sufficient reason diminishes the game.

[saevel25]

Cause you can't control a mud ball, its basically hit ball and hope to god things turn out ok. There is no pulling off great shot, and the fan wont be able to tell its a mud ball to begin with. I like to you spy a mud ball from over 100 yards away.

[Strandly]

Then how many fans want to see there favorite player loose a tournament because of a mud ball. It strikes both ways there. Just because we watch PGA tour events, doesn't mean our opinion matters to the PGA tour. It does when it comes to important matters, but this is so trivial its laughable. PGA tour isn't alienating anyone by making this rule change during the wet golf seasons. They are not going to loose viewership. Until a rule change causes a drastic change in viewership, then it really doesn't matter. PGA tour knows they are going to get people to watch. Just because a few guys get all anal on one insignificant rule change, doesn't bother the PGA tour. If your thinking this is blowing off the fans, your naive.

Its not being Naive, its being realistic. Equipment changes, that's a big deal. The whole long putter thing, that's a big deal. Mud ball rulings for a couple of tournaments, that's just a waste of energy to worry about.

Not even the PGA itself would say that but OK...

[Fourputt]

Cause you can't control a mud ball, its basically hit ball and hope to god things turn out ok. There is no pulling off great shot, and the fan wont be able to tell its a mud ball to begin with. I like to you spy a mud ball from over 100 yards away.

Bull!  I've played occasional balls with mud on them for as long as I've played golf, and it rarely as any effect at all.  I'm not talking about a bally that is entirely covered, but ball with a clump somewhere.  The mud is knocked off at impact and has no effect on the trajectory after that.  if the clump is on the back of the ball then the player has to learn to compensate, just like for rough or sand or whatever.  You make out like its some sort of impossible shot.  Thats just not so.

[TourSpoon]

I've seen it a number of times when a player gets a clump of mud on the ball and the announcer is all worried that it's going to ruin his shot, then the player sticks the ball 10 feet from the hole.  Just because it bothers you doesn't mean that it would really bother them.

This is a pet peeve of mine. Often a golf announcer makes an issue of a non-issue making the shot about to be played seem that it harder than it really is. With the best players in the world they have seen all these shots so many times they know how to play them. My favorite is the slightly downhill bunker shot. Sure it gets in the heads of the ams, but for the guys on tour it is no big deal. It's all about the drama of whether the player can pull it off. Now the shot Steve Stricker hit in the bunker to win his 3rd tournament at the John Deere was a hard shot for anybody and was truly spectacular, but for some of these routine plays the announcers sound silly to those of us who know better.

[9iron]

I disagree with those that claim that PGA Tour players playing under lift, clean and place rules are playing differently than we weekend players.

One, events at my club are routinely played under lift, clean and place rules after similar rains that lead to these rules in Tour Events, so we weekend players get the same sort of relief from our head pros as the tour players get from the PGA.

Two, who has not witnessed players rolling the ball in the fairway (or even the rough)?

[Fourputt]

I disagree with those that claim that PGA Tour players playing under lift, clean and place rules are playing differently than we weekend players.

One, events at my club are routinely played under lift, clean and place rules after similar rains that lead to these rules in Tour Events, so we weekend players get the same sort of relief from our head pros as the tour players get from the PGA.

Two, who has not witnessed players rolling the ball in the fairway (or even the rough)?

Just because I witness it, that doesn't make it right.  Most players who do that aren't worried about any local rule.  They just do it because they do it.

Not all clubs are as liberal yours apparently, since in 22 years playing in the same men's club, I probably saw the rule instituted 3 times.  Even then it was done to account for fresh aeration holes in the fairway, not for mud.  I just don't see any reason for putting in a special rule just because Mother Nature is being her usual contrary self.

[Chris223]

Bull!  I've played occasional balls with mud on them for as long as I've played golf, and it rarely as any effect at all.  I'm not talking about a bally that is entirely covered, but ball with a clump somewhere.  The mud is knocked off at impact and has no effect on the trajectory after that.  if the clump is on the back of the ball then the player has to learn to compensate, just like for rough or sand or whatever.  You make out like its some sort of impossible shot.  Thats just not so.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that your 16 handicap doesn't allow you to see the tiny little differences playing conditions can have on your shots vs the extreme precision of a ball striking touring professional.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that your 16 handicap doesn't allow you to see the tiny little differences playing conditions can have on your shots vs the extreme precision of a ball striking touring professional.

He knows the difference, but he also knows that conditions are part of the game.

[Fourputt]

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

Bull!  I've played occasional balls with mud on them for as long as I've played golf, and it rarely as any effect at all.  I'm not talking about a bally that is entirely covered, but ball with a clump somewhere.  The mud is knocked off at impact and has no effect on the trajectory after that.  if the clump is on the back of the ball then the player has to learn to compensate, just like for rough or sand or whatever.  You make out like its some sort of impossible shot.  Thats just not so.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that your 16 handicap doesn't allow you to see the tiny little differences playing conditions can have on your shots vs the extreme precision of a ball striking touring professional.

My 16.8 handicap is a result of being 66 years old and playing golf 2 weeks ago for the first time in 16 months (it's based solely on the 7 rounds I played during that week).  My handicap index has been as low as 9.6, and I carried a USGA handicap for 24 years.  My lifetime low 18 is 73 (+1), and my low 9 is 33 (-3).  I played an average of 12 tournaments per season in Colorado for 22 years.  I also worked as an on course rules official for the Colorado Golf Association.

Do I need any more qualifications to offer an opinion that you might consider as being valid?

[dennyjones]

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Do I need any more qualifications to offer an opinion that you might consider as being valid?

Ya...You're only good if you can send some of your weather up Michigan way.   This week we are predicted to have a 40º temperature change!

[9iron]

Just because I witness it, that doesn't make it right.  Most players who do that aren't worried about any local rule.  They just do it because they do it.

Not all clubs are as liberal yours apparently, since in 22 years playing in the same men's club, I probably saw the rule instituted 3 times.  Even then it was done to account for fresh aeration holes in the fairway, not for mud.  I just don't see any reason for putting in a special rule just because Mother Nature is being her usual contrary self.

In 4 of the past 5 years the Golf Association of Philadelphia club matches have had at least 1 of the 3 match days played in monsoon conditions in which we played lift clean and place, so it isn't just my club or head pro.

[MEfree]

... tiny little differences playing conditions can have on your shots vs the extreme precision of a ball striking touring professional.

Not only are the pros more precise than us amateurs but the courses they play require much more precision.  That is another way of saying that a mud ball can be more costly to them than to us.

In 4 of the past 5 years the Golf Association of Philadelphia club matches have had at least 1 of the 3 match days played in monsoon conditions in which we played lift clean and place, so it isn't just my club or head pro.

We have had lots of (mostly afternoon/evening) rain this summer and 2 of the 8 (non-scramble) Men's league events I have competed in were played with lift, clean and place.  You are correct that it is not just your club and the PGA Tour that will institute the rule.